Posts : 101 Join date : 2013-09-06 Age : 50 Location : York, PA
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:08 pm
So, I paid a visit to Tim today and helped him pull his tank and we swapped (I think lol!) fuel pumps back to the ACDelco (at least that's what when in!). It seems the check valve on the Spectre was done. We also replaced the o-ring around the pump assembly. This time when he keyed it on, the psi shot up to 46. It stayed there a bit and slowly lowered, but hovered around 40 for the most part.
My question is this: Could the o-ring around the fuel pump assembly have caused these problems? It didn't seem so much as it was "sealing" the pump like with A/C and other o-rings.
By the way, it was great to meet Tim and his family! He has a VERY fine wagon (yes, I gave the "oh $h*t," when my head snapped on the test drive). I went from, "so what made you put a manual in this car?" To this....
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:49 pm
convert2diesel wrote:
Flasheroo wrote:
Dutch Pete wrote:
Good tht it's solved. The part of the pressure in the tank, my tank Always sucks air in when i get the gas cap open. (93 TBI) Is that normal? Pete
Most if not all the guys here are passing GAS in one way or another and yes that suction sound you hear is normal with all the TBI wagons!
Sorry guys,I couldnt let that gas comment go!
If the system is pulling a vacuum on the tank, than change the cap! It is designed to let air in not out. Will allow small amounts of pressure, controlled by the canister valve. The cap is supposed to prevent vacuum.
Bill
Bill so there is a valve in the canister? Is is replaceable? Separate problem, but I think my no long works.
cbshea13 wrote:
So, I paid a visit to Tim today and helped him pull his tank and we swapped (I think lol!) fuel pumps back to the ACDelco (at least that's what when in!). It seems the check valve on the Spectre was done. We also replaced the o-ring around the pump assembly. This time when he keyed it on, the psi shot up to 46. It stayed there a bit and slowly lowered, but hovered around 40 for the most part.
My question is this: Could the o-ring around the fuel pump assembly have caused these problems? It didn't seem so much as it was "sealing" the pump like with A/C and other o-rings.
By the way, it was great to meet Tim and his family! He has a VERY fine wagon (yes, I gave the "oh $h*t," when my head snapped on the test drive). I went from, "so what made you put a manual in this car?" To this....
I want to keep my car stock he says!! LOL! Thanks for stopping by Chris, an extra hand is always appreciated.
So I started taking the tank down and realized that it was full!! So I used the fuel pump to drain the tank. Worked pretty well if I do say so.
I replaced the fuel filter (for grins) and used same pump. The check valve seems to work fine. I did replace the seal where it connects to the sender, but it is not a o-ring. I large rubber seal. I also tried to seal up the schrader valve with a thin layer of silicone grease, but that will be replaced soon. Not sure what I really changed, but it now comes up to 46 psi when pump is running, but car is off (no vacuum). It does leak down after you shut it off. Currently an old used regulator is in the car.
We will see what she is like tomorrow in the AM
cbshea13
Posts : 101 Join date : 2013-09-06 Age : 50 Location : York, PA
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:57 pm
There we go! The seal. My apologies! lol. And yes, draining the tank was...different! As I said before Tim, any time. As long as I'm not working, and have child care, I'm up for getting dirty! (Oh and thanks for the lights, will be removing the door panel after dinner to check for wiring! )
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:20 pm
and we fixed nothing!!! still starting hard!!
has anyone tired the Holley adjustable fuel pressure regulator? Looks like a much higher quality product. This would let me take the FPR off the list of suspects.
cbshea13
Posts : 101 Join date : 2013-09-06 Age : 50 Location : York, PA
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:07 pm
Found a nice long read. It almost seems to fit your symptoms at times....at least I think so.
A link is in your private messages!
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:22 pm
Read it. I soldered my connections so this would not happen. My issei is not an intermittent pump run, but pressure bleed off.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:31 pm
I bit the bullet and bought new schrader valves (50 so if anyone needs one let me know!), Walbro Fuel pump (US MADE!!), adapter for a permanent fuel pressure gauge and a Holley adjustable FPR. Going to go in steps. I will replace the valve first and see where the pressure is, then the FPR and check it. Lastly the Fuel pump, if all else fails.
It is going to be 2 weeks before I have a chance to work on it though.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:42 pm
Ok so I had some time to dink with it today.
*Inspected/replaced as needed o-rings in fuel rail
*Tested new FPR with a vacuum pump - holds 15psi without fail.
The GM Factory Service Manual states that with the fuel pump running but engine off the fuel pressure will be 41-47psi. With the car at normal operating temp at idle it should be 3-10 psi lower than your initial pressure. So my car should idle at 34-37 psi approx when warmed up at idle.
- After the system replenished itself with fuel before it started I got 41-42 psi on the rail with the engine in start but not running. When the fuel pump comes on it climbs quickly but stops hard at 41-42 psi. It seems the FPR will not let it go higher than this.
- Tested the pump by shutting off return line - 70psi achieved instantly. So no flow problems in the lines.
- After start up the vacuum line NOT hooked up I get 38-40 psi.
- Install vacuum line and it idles between 32-34 psi. rev it and it bounces off 41-42 and back down.
- Started the car a second time. Removed vacuum line from FPR and shut it down to see if it will hold 38-39 psi that it. Shut the car off. - Shut off at 38psi - At 25 minutes the pressure it up to 40psi (I assume you get a little fluid expansion when the fuel in the rails & lines warms up a bit after coming out of the cold tank). - At 40, 50 minutes still solid at 40psi - 70 min 38psi - 90 min 37psi - 110 min 36psi - 2 hrs 34psi - 3 hrs 32psi
Following FSM Chart A-7 it tells me my FPR is bad. It also seems my test gauge is loosing pressure, so time for a new gauge. More to come when I accomplish these to tasks.
lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Tue Sep 09, 2014 5:13 pm
For the record, the curled hose going from the top of the pump up to the bottom of the sending unit tubes has a tendency to crack or blow out, and thus spring leaks. Anyone who has to get into the tank for any purpose should replace it for good measure. It's an once of prevention in a twenty five gallon tank.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:05 pm
I left the wagon sitting overnight and most all day. It was at 8 psi when I looked at it (5pm ish). The car started extremely hard. It took 2 cranks.
So sitting beside the wagon in the garage is the Impala. It has the original FPR and original pump (tank has never been down) and 82k on the odometer. It generally starts when the first piston sparks. So this should be my goal.
So to test my drop in pressure I cleaned up my test gauge and it seems to be leak free (no fuel in the pressure release line). So I put it on my Impala (reminder the issues is with the wagon). I left the other gauge on the wagon.
Conditions: No start, but hit the pump to bring the pressure up. The wagon is only coming up to 32 psi when the pump stopped running. The Impala, when the pump is running, not motor, comes up to 44-45 psi. When pump stops it is about 39 psi. So I let them both sit.
Both cars dropped to 24 psi over the period of about 3.5 hours. So it appears that the pressure drop in the wagon is normal. So the pump, lines, and filter all seem to be in spec based on this and the other tests I have done. It has to be the FPR. Agreed? __________________
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:58 pm
car will start with 30+ lbs fuel pressure,.
squeeze off the return overnite,. see if its still hard start.
lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:16 am
Good idea nick.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:25 pm
And the saga continues.
I replaced the FPR with another new OEM style unit. Now it gets to 44 ish with vacuum line off and runs at about 36psi. So now I can cross that off the list.
I pulled the relay from the box that runs the pump and broke it so I replaced with new.
Still starting slowly after it sits for a few hours.
Back to square one. I will pull the plugs tomorrow after church and see if any of the plugs are wet, measure the resistance of each injector (the FSM says they have to be within 1 ohm to work properly). Tonight I will read through the FSM to see if I can come up with any other ideas.
lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:34 am
Here's an idea Tim... Sell it to one of us!
There is a ball check valve in the pump ( in the tank) as well. it keeps fuel in the line, rather than being unchecked and flow back to the tank when the ignition is off.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:01 am
Already tested it.
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:54 am
After all you have checked,. i would pull fuel rail and hang it with all injectors in,wrap paper towels around each injector and see if you have a weeper,. pressure up the system with return line pinched off,.
pulling spark plugs to see if they are wet will only confirm the injectors are/not leaking
didn't i read somewhere about oil pressure and hard starting on an lt1...?
cbshea13
Posts : 101 Join date : 2013-09-06 Age : 50 Location : York, PA
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:13 am
phantom 309 wrote:
After all you have checked,. i would pull fuel rail and hang it with all injectors in,wrap paper towels around each injector and see if you have a weeper,. pressure up the system with return line pinched off,.
pulling spark plugs to see if they are wet will only confirm the injectors are/not leaking
didn't i read somewhere about oil pressure and hard starting on an lt1...?
I do believe he pulled the number 3 plug while I was there yesterday, and I thought it looked fine (as did he). I was doing some reading on it (again, lol) and one thing popped up after a few pages... the Mass Air Flow sensor. One of the symptoms can lead to extended cranking times when cold, and seems to fall in line with the problem Tim is having. This is one of the few things I think wasn't checked yet.
Spark, fuel and compression are there. Could it be an air/fuel mixture issue? Then again, I could be over-thinking it and didn't even consider the injectors.
Edit: I'm just throwing this MAF part out there. I would not have considered it had I not come across a few pages mentioning it.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:16 pm
phantom 309 wrote:
After all you have checked,. i would pull fuel rail and hang it with all injectors in,wrap paper towels around each injector and see if you have a weeper,. pressure up the system with return line pinched off,.
pulling spark plugs to see if they are wet will only confirm the injectors are/not leaking
didn't i read somewhere about oil pressure and hard starting on an lt1...?
When I started this whole adventure I pulled the whole rail and put blue paper towels under each pair and charged the rail - Nothing!
I know there is a lot of things it could be. I should have an extra oil pressure sensor I might try one.
cbshea13 wrote:
phantom 309 wrote:
After all you have checked,. i would pull fuel rail and hang it with all injectors in,wrap paper towels around each injector and see if you have a weeper,. pressure up the system with return line pinched off,.
pulling spark plugs to see if they are wet will only confirm the injectors are/not leaking
didn't i read somewhere about oil pressure and hard starting on an lt1...?
I do believe he pulled the number 3 plug while I was there yesterday, and I thought it looked fine (as did he). I was doing some reading on it (again, lol) and one thing popped up after a few pages... the Mass Air Flow sensor. One of the symptoms can lead to extended cranking times when cold, and seems to fall in line with the problem Tim is having. This is one of the few things I think wasn't checked yet.
Spark, fuel and compression are there. Could it be an air/fuel mixture issue? Then again, I could be over-thinking it and didn't even consider the injectors.
Edit: I'm just throwing this MAF part out there. I would not have considered it had I not come across a few pages mentioning it.
I have a MAF or two around I could swap out. Also if the coolant temp sensor in the front of the pump is not within spec it can cause issues. Lots to look at!!! So little time and patience left.
94Woody
Posts : 2383 Join date : 2008-12-02 Age : 49 Location : Ocala,FL
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:34 pm
The one problem I ever had with my Wagon was hard starting. Eventually it turned into No Start. Swapped out the MAF and it never happened again.
Bobloblaw
Posts : 121 Join date : 2014-08-17 Location : Arizona
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:53 pm
Not sure if you have already tried this yet...but have you checked the throttle body?
I ask this because over the weekend I finally had some time to look over my car and perform a little tune up on it. The first thing I did was clean the throttle body. It was filthy! 22 years filthy to be exact. I did a VERY quick cleaning job on it, and now it runs 100 times better. Faster start up, and better idle, and response. No more hesitation during passing, or from a dead stop.
I would give that a shot while you are looking at the MAF. Try cleaning the MAF before replacing it. Also remember that sometimes the computer needs 50-100 miles of driving to re-learn.
Good luck. I know if I was in your shoes I would have thrown a wrench through the windshield....twice.
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:07 pm
If you unplug the temp sensor before start it'll think its forty below,.That one experiment to try next time it has sat for a while and before you even attempt to start it,.
if you let the fuel rail sit over blue paper for a while and nothing leaked over time,.,. then pulling the plugs makes no sense,. sorry,.
so humour me here,..
you know it'll be hard to start after a day or so,.
so,.
If you turn the key a couple of times and cycle the fuel pump and build pressure before you even try to start,. it doesn't help?
Are you moving the fuel pedal at all when you try to start it?
Another experiment to try after it has sat for a while, is to unplug the maf and see how it starts, make sure you don't have a tear or an open port between maf and engine, allowing air in after maf has calibrated,.
Is your idle air control working ok?
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:38 pm
Sorry for the late response to all this. I was testing the car and my passenger side cat blew its guts into the exhaust pipes, so I was dinking with getting that all cleaned out and while I was at it I sent the headers back to Jet Hot.
phantom 309 wrote:
car will start with 30+ lbs fuel pressure,.
squeeze off the return overnite,. see if its still hard start.
I built a stubby piece of line and blocked it off plugged it into the fuel rail and it instantly went to 70PSI as it should.
Bobloblaw wrote:
Not sure if you have already tried this yet...but have you checked the throttle body?
I ask this because over the weekend I finally had some time to look over my car and perform a little tune up on it. The first thing I did was clean the throttle body. It was filthy! 22 years filthy to be exact. I did a VERY quick cleaning job on it, and now it runs 100 times better. Faster start up, and better idle, and response. No more hesitation during passing, or from a dead stop.
I would give that a shot while you are looking at the MAF. Try cleaning the MAF before replacing it. Also remember that sometimes the computer needs 50-100 miles of driving to re-learn.
Good luck. I know if I was in your shoes I would have thrown a wrench through the windshield....twice.
Already removed and cleaned the throttle body all up and messed up my TPS. So I replaced that.
phantom 309 wrote:
If you unplug the temp sensor before start it'll think its forty below,.That one experiment to try next time it has sat for a while and before you even attempt to start it,.
if you let the fuel rail sit over blue paper for a while and nothing leaked over time,.,. then pulling the plugs makes no sense,. sorry,.
so humour me here,..
you know it'll be hard to start after a day or so,.
so,.
If you turn the key a couple of times and cycle the fuel pump and build pressure before you even try to start,. it doesn't help?
Are you moving the fuel pedal at all when you try to start it?
Another experiment to try after it has sat for a while, is to unplug the maf and see how it starts, make sure you don't have a tear or an open port between maf and engine, allowing air in after maf has calibrated,.
Is your idle air control working ok?
I checked my temp sensor tonight and it tested good. If I cycle the key VERY quickly 3-4 times it starts fine. If I let the pump run until it stops, turn the key off and turn the key back to run the pump does not come on. It will after it sits for a bit. Going to test this against the Impala tomorrow. I may just replace the IAC valve. Both of the ones I have for it seem a bit sluggish. Cannot start it now as I have no exhaust on the car. Testing to resume when the headers come back.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:52 pm
So I got the headers back on the car and started it. Started REALLY hard after sitting for two weeks or so. While the headers were off I replaced the spark plugs with new and gaped each one to .050, replaced the IAC valve while it was down and NO change.
Next I swapped the MAF and the Air intake temp sensor with zero change.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:10 am
Sunday afternoon I swapped the coil and cleaned up the engine ground - no improvement That night I swapped out the Opti with a Delco one I had in back stock. Seems to have done the trick. So the old cliche' "Its the Opti" still holds true!!
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:41 am
What brand was the opti you replaced?
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:47 am
DELPHI
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:22 pm
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
Sunday afternoon I swapped the coil and cleaned up the engine ground - no improvement That night I swapped out the Opti with a Delco one I had in back stock. Seems to have done the trick. So the old cliche' "Its the Opti" still holds true!!
EH,...????
Viceroy454
Posts : 45 Join date : 2014-08-04
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:31 pm
Sometimes it is the most stereotypical solution that works.
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Wed Oct 08, 2014 6:22 pm
So the opti was degenerating over a few hours?
??
cbshea13
Posts : 101 Join date : 2013-09-06 Age : 50 Location : York, PA
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:51 pm
phantom 309 wrote:
So the opti was degenerating over a few hours?
??
I'm not sure how I'd put this. It seemed to start right up after *fuel pump swap, spark plug swap...etc* but then eventually start to have the issue. (I think this is how I'd put it anyway, from what I saw/heard Tim say. (I was there doing the fuel pump swap one day, and it fired right up after the fuel pump change - only to go back to the problem later in the day.)
Note: On Monday it started hard again for him, but I don't know if that was before or after the Opti change (I was at work and could not respond to his text, but according to post he changed it Sunday night)
Edit: had to change use of > making my text not appear lol.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:35 am
cbshea13 wrote:
phantom 309 wrote:
So the opti was degenerating over a few hours?
??
I'm not sure how I'd put this. It seemed to start right up after *fuel pump swap, spark plug swap...etc* but then eventually start to have the issue. (I think this is how I'd put it anyway, from what I saw/heard Tim say. (I was there doing the fuel pump swap one day, and it fired right up after the fuel pump change - only to go back to the problem later in the day.)
Note: On Monday it started hard again for him, but I don't know if that was before or after the Opti change (I was at work and could not respond to his text, but according to post he changed it Sunday night)
Edit: had to change use of > making my text not appear lol.
Not exactly Chris. For months I have had an issue with long cranking (2-3 seconds maybe) and I have been putting it off. The latest issue started when the long crank became a no start, at least no start until messing with it for 1/2 or so. This was after sitting for 2+ hours.
The fuel pressure presented itself as low based on the GM FSM. I went through 3 Fuel Pressure Regulators to finally get one close to spec. This made little to no change (I don't believe that was an issue at all). Chris and I pulled out the fuel pump and looked it over blew into it and it seemed to be fine. Put new plugs in when I had the headers off prior to doing the opti - no change. I never swapped the fuel pump. The Opti replacement seems to have solved the long crank issue , when it starts it starts quickly. I still seem to have an issue that lets me sit after 2+ hours. It requires 30+ seconds of total cranking to get it running. The new issue is the started just clicking when it is cold for the first key turn or two. I think this is a failing starter.
The good news is that MSD is rebuilding the Opti for me so I have a spare.
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:44 pm
bad battery connection at the starter,.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:51 pm
Yeah Nick I was thinking the same thing. On the road. First thing I am going to check when I get home.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:18 pm
phantom 309 wrote:
bad battery connection at the starter,.
I double checked this today. My "Gary's" wires are all nice and tight at all points.
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:30 pm
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
phantom 309 wrote:
bad battery connection at the starter,.
I double checked this today. My "Gary's" wires are all nice and tight at all points.
Nice and tight doesn't guarantee 'good' at the starter
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:36 pm
phantom 309 wrote:
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
phantom 309 wrote:
bad battery connection at the starter,.
I double checked this today. My "Gary's" wires are all nice and tight at all points.
Nice and tight doesn't guarantee 'good' at the starter
explain please
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Oct 11, 2014 8:59 pm
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:40 pm
1. Any stored codes? 2. Do you have access to a scan tool? 3. Do you have a FSM? 4. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? 5. Do you have a spark tester? 6. Do you have access to a set of noid lights?
There are a few things that will cause a hard start. The one that leaps to mind is the engine temperature -- computer may think the engine is cold. Even though you may have replaced the sensor, the wiring may be the issue. You could meter the temperature sensor probe from the PCM to verify the total resistance is correct for the actual temperature. Similarly, if the TPS circuit is returning a high voltage, the PCM may be entering "flood clear" mode -- normally triggered by pushing on the gas pedal when cranking, the PCM shuts down the injectors.
The FSM has a section on hard/no start conditions. One thing they mention is the MAF can be installed backwards, causing a rich condition. The car should fall back if the MAF is unplugged, so in the absence of a scan tool, that might be another diagnostic you could try.
Verifying the presence of fuel pressure and spark might help isolate the condition. I know you've done a lot of parts swapping in that regard, but it's always worth double checking, especially when swapping in used parts. Noid lights are used to confirm that the injectors are getting some sort of voltage.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:52 pm
buickwagon wrote:
1. Any stored codes? 2. Do you have access to a scan tool? 3. Do you have a FSM? 4. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? 5. Do you have a spark tester? 6. Do you have access to a set of noid lights?
There are a few things that will cause a hard start. The one that leaps to mind is the engine temperature -- computer may think the engine is cold. Even though you may have replaced the sensor, the wiring may be the issue. You could meter the temperature sensor probe from the PCM to verify the total resistance is correct for the actual temperature. Similarly, if the TPS circuit is returning a high voltage, the PCM may be entering "flood clear" mode -- normally triggered by pushing on the gas pedal when cranking, the PCM shuts down the injectors.
The FSM has a section on hard/no start conditions. One thing they mention is the MAF can be installed backwards, causing a rich condition. The car should fall back if the MAF is unplugged, so in the absence of a scan tool, that might be another diagnostic you could try.
Verifying the presence of fuel pressure and spark might help isolate the condition. I know you've done a lot of parts swapping in that regard, but it's always worth double checking, especially when swapping in used parts. Noid lights are used to confirm that the injectors are getting some sort of voltage.
1. Any stored codes? No light, although I have not hooked my computer to the car (between laptops) 2. Do you have access to a scan tool? Tuner CATS 3. Do you have a FSM? Yes 4. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge? Installed on the fuel rail 5. Do you have a spark tester? No 6. Do you have access to a set of noid lights? I buddy is trying to find his for me.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:54 pm
About an hour later
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:56 pm
interesting how the tach doesn't even twitch while its cranking,..
Dutch Pete
Posts : 421 Join date : 2009-12-07 Age : 63 Location : Netherlands
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:44 am
The Click sounds as a starter motor beginning to fail, but than it cranks just fine. (I had the same problem with the click, up to the point there was no start at all. replaced the starter, solved the problem) Can't help you with the other problem. Yours is a 94 LT1, mine a 93 TBI, no clues here
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:24 am
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
1. Any stored codes? No light, although I have not hooked my computer to the car (between laptops)
Of particular interest here would be DTC 16, 18, 41 or 42. If one of those sets, the light does NOT come on and the injectors will be shut down. Code 16 indicates a loss of the low resolution pulse from the opti -- bad sensor, dirty ring, wiring, PCM failure, etc. Was your replacement opti new or used? Any chance something is getting heat-soaked and failing when hot?
Code 18 is an injector circuit electrical fault -- driver, injector, wiring, PCM, etc.
DTC 41 and 42 is the Ignition Control circuit, and 41 will ONLY set during cranking. Possible causes include the module itself, PCM, and of course the wiring/connectors.
There are a number of other codes that can be set without turning on the light, but most of them deal with the transmission or AC and I'm not aware of any that would prevent starting.
It would be nice to confirm the presence or absence of a code before wasting any more time and effort. If you can't get your scan tool program going, you should at least check through the CC system. You do have the FSM so I won't bother repeating the diagnostic chart steps here.
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2. Do you have access to a scan tool? Tuner CATS
I've never used that. Does it have the capability to monitor the live data? The live data stream tells you what the PCM is actually seeing on each circuit. EG: what the PCM thinks the engine temperature or barometric pressure is, how many volts it is seeing from the TPS, etc. and some of the outputs too. If you see the PCM is commanding an injector pulse width of 0, then you know a lack of fuel is deliberate rather than an injector wiring problem. If you have an understanding of the system, the data stream can point out problems that are not yet severe enough to trigger a code, especially on circuits that are normally variable. For example, I once had a no-start problem because the ECU thought the engine was at was 20°C when in reality it was -20°C outside. -20° is a valid temperature, so it won't trigger a code, but it made a huge difference in the amount of fuel supplied.
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5. Do you have a spark tester? No
A cheap, effective and safe way to test for the presence of spark. Get one.
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6. Do you have access to a set of noid lights? I buddy is trying to find his for me.
Another thought is to try a shot of starter spray or propane from an unlit propane torch in the intake while an assistant cranks the car over. Potentially dangerous, so wear eye protection, gloves and stand to one side, but if the car tries to fire it suggests a fuel problem. Could be too rich or too lean, as ether and propane both have a wider explosive range than gasoline, but usually means lack of fuel. Especially if one of the above codes are set.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Oct 12, 2014 5:41 pm
buickwagon wrote:
Was your replacement opti new or used? Any chance something is getting heat-soaked and failing when hot?
It was a new Opti and yes a real chance of something (what I dont know) getting heat soaked. Initially it acted up after it was sitting for 3 hours or so and also cold. Now cold it seems to start fine, but when it gets 2/3rds of the way warmed up it does not want to start.
Oh and I do have a spark tester and just bought the NOID test set at Advanced. No testing tonight, but I might get a chance to work it tomorrow in the PM.
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:28 pm
So just before WagonFest Virginia, Mr. Mike Hanlon spent the better part of the day working on the beast with the noid lights and spark tested. When it would not start the noid lights and spark tester were going off and it would not start.
Today is the first chance I have had to do much else. I swapped the injectors for another set in had in the drawer. I will need to some time to test run it to see if there is any change. Going to Rochester over Thanksgiving week, hope to have it to take and drag bambi home with.
phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:01 pm
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
So just before WagonFest Virginia, Mr. Mike Hanlon spent the better part of the day working on the beast with the noid lights and spark tested. When it would not start the noid lights and spark tester were going off and it would not start.
Today is the first chance I have had to do much else. I swapped the injectors for another set in had in the drawer. I will need to some time to test run it to see if there is any change. Going to Rochester over Thanksgiving week, hope to have it to take and drag bambi home with.
Interesting,. has spark,. has injector pulse,. but won't start,.
Did you try the foot to the floor while cranking,.?
BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 58 Location : Sanford, NC
Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's? Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:59 am
So in my saga to find the issue I swapped out the injectors to my old injectors, I pulled the tank again to fix the fuel gauge I messed up last time I had it down and also straighten out the o-ring that seem to be leaking some fumes on a full tank. No change.
The FSM mentioned that the MAP sensor is part of the the start up sequence for the motor. So on a whim, and since I had a extra in the drawer, I swapped it. I do not like the factory seal they have on that sensor, they all seem to look cockeyed to me. The rubber seal on one I took off was not in great shape. Well I have run the car all week, started in most all scenarios very well. So I think that was it. Seems to be running rich when cold, but I think that is by design, but time for a little data logging to see if anything can be improved.
I know I have said fixed before so I hope this time it truly is.
On a side note I just ordered the HD fuel pump harness from Racetronix. They are typically difficult to deal with, they do not even publish a phone number. I bought it from Tick Performance out of NC as they were a bit friendlier. I want to do this upgrade anyway.
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Subject: Re: New issue just popped up. Any further idea's?