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 Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!

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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:31 pm

I had my mechanic throw my SLP headers on my stockish 95 Caprice Wagon and he also decided to delete the EGR to clean the engine bay up since he was in there. I had the PCM tuned by Bryan Herter before the headers and it ran STRONG!

The headers went on great and when I went to drive it home, it was reallyyyy doggy. The PCM was tuned for my mods by Bryan Herter BEFORE the headers and before the EGR Delete. So I know it needs to be retuned and thats the next step.
My question is, should it feel really sluggish from the new Headers on the old tune, and also with the new EGR delete on the old tune?

It drove just fine, but the exhaust sounded like it was just working its A$$ off and It was lacking power big time and the exhaust itself was much quieter after the headers were installed.scratch

I'm just running this past you guys to see if I need to check plug wires and such, or just get the PCM reflashed and it will likely cure it? It didn't limp, misfire, or anything at idle, so I don't think it was any major misfire issue.

Just curious on your opinions!
Thanks!
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:48 pm

Just to be 100% clear, is your current tune calibrated for EGR delete ?

If you deleted the EGR on a stock cam car and did not tune to compensate for the removal of EGR, it will not run optimally.   Get it tuned for EGR delete and your issue should be resolved.  

EGR lowers combustion temps at part throttle.  Your PCM wants to increase timing and decrease fuel.   Currently, assuming you didn't tune after deleting the EGR, you run the risk of detonation.   I suspect your knock sensors are pulling timing.  Not ideal.
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:23 am

Still on old tune. Old tune was calibrated for a working EGR.

I'm sending PCM in for retune and EGR delete calibrations, so hopefully it clears up.

I was just shocked how gut-less it was and it sounded like absolute $hit. It sounded like a TBI 305! lol
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 1:31 pm

Deadmanonduty wrote:

 
It drove just fine, but the exhaust sounded like it was just working its A$$ off and It was lacking power big time and the exhaust itself was much quieter after the headers were installed.scratch  

 
Thanks!  

I,ve no idea what might not be hooked up right,. but you describe a restricted exhaust

hopefully your guy has deleted the egr the easy way,. and has plugged off the vacuum port
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:03 pm

There have been recent reports on the ISSF of people not happy with tunes from that supplier. Worth a search...
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:29 pm

phantom 309 wrote:
Deadmanonduty wrote:

 
It drove just fine, but the exhaust sounded like it was just working its A$$ off and It was lacking power big time and the exhaust itself was much quieter after the headers were installed.scratch  

 
Thanks!  

I,ve no idea what might not be hooked up right,. but you describe a restricted exhaust

hopefully your guy has deleted the egr the easy way,. and has plugged off the vacuum port

Ya know, I was swamped at work and my mechanic told me he welded shut the end of the port wherever the heck it is by the firewall and sealed that off. I'm not sure of any vacuum port????
He's a pretty established mechanic and gear head, but he's a Ford guy.
Can you elaborate on the vacuum port please? Thanks!


(The tune worked perfect until these mods, so the previous tune is not an issue until I did these mods)
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:08 pm

Deadmanonduty wrote:

(The tune worked perfect until these mods, so the previous tune is not an issue until I did these mods)

no doubt: your EGR was hooked up and you ran a tune made for a car with the EGR.

step 1: get EGR delete tune.
ensure intake manifold has 2 areas blocked off: former locations of EGR valve and feed tube
ensure intake manifold has vacuum cap
ensure spark plug wires not crossed (super easy to get them wrong)



Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:35 pm

THANK YOU!

Ya know, the more you talk about the spark plug wires being crossed, that crossed my mind right away. Hell, the exhaust won't even "rap" now, it just growls a growl of laboring nastiness!

……..I just talked to mechanic and he said he never took spark plug wires off the plugs, so thats that!
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:04 pm

hopefully your plug wires were new. It's very easy to do the wires when the manifolds are off.

let us know how it runs when the right tune is in.
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sherlock9c1



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:17 am

Headers make a pretty big impact on combustion dynamics. When I tune a car with headers, I adjust ignition timing, O2 sensor feedback gain, and O2 sensor feedback delay time. There may be more that I'm missing, but I'd touch those at a minimum. I'm sure the tuner you mentioned is aware of those parameters, but I'm just illustrating the importance of adjusting the tune after mods like this. Heck, I'd recommend recalibrating the MAF parameters after ANY change from stock in the intake piping based on what I've seen.

BTW, next time I wouldn't delete EGR if I was you.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 2:50 am

Deadmanonduty wrote:

Ya know, I was swamped at work and my mechanic told me he welded shut the end of the port wherever the heck it is by the firewall and sealed that off.

I don't know what he thought he had to weld shut,..that scares me and has me wondering,.if maybe now the egr valve is stuck wide open,.
that would drop your power

I really don't know why folks want to delete the egr on a stock motor ,.(stock camshaft)

it doesn't improve aesthetics,. you can't see it back there,.

simplest way to 'delete' the egr is to simply plug the vacumm hose coming out of the solenoid,.

you won't see any increase in power,.

Did you inspect the headers before installing them?

are all tubes wide open? they were used headers ?
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:38 am

He didn't want to hook the EGR tube up to the new headers, so he suggested we get rid of it. He welded the hole shut on the intake manifold where the EGR tube feeds into the intake manifold. He welded that plate thats bolted to the intake manifold because we didn't have time to wait for a EGR delete plate to be shipped.

The headers appeared to be new. I looked them over, but I can't say I ran anything thru each primary to ensure there wasn't a golf ball or something in there…. They were in clean storage, so I'm pretty sure they are clear.

The spark plugs and wires were all done less than 5,000 miles ago and have a pile of heat reflective tape added to the wires, so I thought leaving them was realistic.

I've got a crazy week at work, and then I'll pull the PCM and send it to pcm4less to get adjusted. Are they still the "go-to" place for the tunes?
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:19 am

Whoever did your original tune should give you a discount for your "re-tune" like this that has just a few parameter changes. I'd go with that.

For a new tune I've used pcmforless and pcmperformance. I prefer pcmperformance.
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:28 am

He welded the aluminum intake?
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:00 pm

jayoldschool wrote:
He welded the aluminum intake?  

Nope, he welded the plate bolted on to the aluminum intake.
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:01 pm

PCM4less quoted me a few months ago and said the reflash was like $40 or $60 I forget exactly but it was not terribly expensive!
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:02 pm

Thank you for your input and ideas guys, I appreciate the help! Smile
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:29 pm

Ok, I finally had time to look closer at this EGR issue.

My mechanic did block off the location of the EGR tube on the intake manifold, but he DID NOT block off the location on intake manifold where EGR VALVE is attached. The EGR valve is still there in its factory location and no vacuum hoses were capped anywhere.

Is my easiest route to block EGR Valve location on intake manifold to buy a "EGR delete kit" on ebay and use their block off plate and remove the EGR valve?
Then, what specific vacuum lines should I cap off? I bought a vacuum cap kit with numerous sizes in it, so I should have all the needed vacuum caps.

Thanks again guys, sorry for the lack of knowledge on this, I just wasn't really anticipating deleting the EGR, so I didn't get my research done ahead of time on the topic!

I have the PCM boxed ready to ship out!
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:41 pm

Do you have emissions testing in WI?
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 13, 2016 9:58 pm

nope
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:12 am

the small plastic vacuum hose from the solenoid to the egr has a rubber 90deg elbow right at the egr,.
screw a 1/4 bolt in the rubber elbow to block it off,.

job done,.you now have egr delete,.

your mileage will suffer,.slightly,.

your wot will not change,.,..

i doubt you will notice any difference in the egr delete tune,.

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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:35 am

phantom 309 wrote:
the small plastic vacuum hose from the solenoid to the egr has a rubber 90deg elbow right at the egr,.
screw a 1/4

This is the cheapest easiest way.

If you want to actually remove the EGR valve and solenoid, then get the kit online. put a cap on the intake manifold vacuum feed shown in the shbox pic a few posts up that says "vacuum feed" (i.e. follow the solenoid vacuum tube to the middle of the intake manifold).
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:02 pm

Thanks guys, I'll get it plugged!
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:35 pm

OK, so I got the tune done and took it out for a drive.

It runs pretty good, but it sure doesn't feel as "crisp" as it did before and the exhaust is noticeably "quieter" than with the stock log manifolds…(wtf?) It does sound a little different indeed, but it does not snap (rasp) nearly as much as it did with the stock manifolds. I expected it to sound much better after the headers, but It sure doesn't.

Sound aside……

Power at lower RPM seems reduced, but when it gets wound up, it goes like a SOB! I'm at a little disadvantage because I have not driven the car all winter (salt), so I'm not super familiar with the exact feel of it. I've daily driven my 400 HP Hemi, so I'm hoping my expectations aren't fooling me. It just feels like its struggling a little down low, whereas before it would just torque thru the gears at low RPM with no challenge. It still pulls down low, but nothing that impresses me.

Are the headers "known" for losing low end power? I understand that the biggest gains will be had at higher RPM with headers, but I didn't expect any kind of loss of torque down low. Now its burning last years 93 octane fuel, but its had Seafoam in it and it was non-ethanol fuel so it should be still ok fuel.

Any thoughts or suggestions? I do have the EGR DELETE tune and the vacuum line capped off and the EGR to exhaust manifold pipe welded shut. Could the EGR delete be making it run like this? I've only put a few miles on it, so no Check Engine light or anything is on.
Thanks for your ideas!
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:27 pm

Hang on.  Are you saying the fuel is left over from as long as 5 months ago?  That might be a contributing factor.  Running 93 octane seems like overkill in a stock compression and timed engine. Also, octane rating means nothing for degradation of gasoline over time.  The octane rating and use of Seafoam are not relevant in shelf life of fuel.  If you had used a fuel stabilizer (Stabil?) that might have helped.  But, if it were my car I'd get some fresh fuel in the system before  making further adjustments. Probably clean the MAF and throttle body, and change the spark plugs if they are due, and then tune the PCM when the dust settles.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:09 pm

It might be possible,. that the egr valve is stuck open ever so slightly,.?
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:37 pm

The octane number can be relevant... around here 91/93 is non-ethanol Wink
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 2:51 pm

Yes, it might be relevant to whether or not the fuel contains ethanol, but only if you in the region as the OP. In some (many?) states there's no hard rule linking octane rating to presence or absence of ethanol. Some higher octane stuff in NY still contains up to 10%. Also, what I wrote was that the octane rating is not relevant to the shelf life of the fuel. Old gas is old gas. I'll still burn up the old fuel and clean up the easy items before tuning the PCM (the egr delete notwithstanding). Perhaps not absolutely necessary, but why not eliminate easy maintenance issues before attempting to fine tune a possibly compromised system?
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:45 pm

Thanks guys, I'm just trying to be open-minded right now and consider everything before I do anything.

The fuel is from November and was Shell Premium (no ethanol), which is indeed old. It did have Stabil in it and a bunch of Seafoam, so it was preserved, but its still "old" lol.

I'll get some fresh non Ethanol premium for it and see how it runs.

How would I check the EGR valve being open a little? Remove it and look, I'm assuming? I'll be honest I have no knowledge on the darn EGR.

I'm hoping not to change much before I get fresh fuel in it just to eliminate the possibilities on what has changed so far.

The weather idiot is calling for a big blast of snow Wed-Thursday, so back to hibernation if they salt the roads!

Just a thought, doesn't adding headers typically make the exhaust louder instead of quieter? Not that I'm looking for noise, but I was almost afraid to add the headers because i "assumed" they would make my exhaust much louder and its already loud enough.
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94Woody



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:49 pm

I would just pull the valve off and install a proper block off plate. Same goes for the pipe. I think the plates cost me 10 bucks on ebay. I drove my LT1 for YEARS with an untuned EGR delete and it ran just fine with plenty of power. I was also one of those fools that dumped his cats and holy hell did that exhaust stink.

As for sound, if you are running the stock cats, headers aren't really going to change the sound much. The cats are very good mufflers themselves.
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:55 pm

Export pipes on it. Thats why I was expecting crazy loud.

I think thats a great idea, I'll get the block off plates and make sure they are both completely sealed. I just have this gut feeling its in the EGR delete somehow……

Do the Fbody EGR delete kits on EBAY work just fine, or are there better kits that I should look at?

Thanks again!
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Added SLP Headers to LT1 and engine feels very sluggish!   Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:04 pm

I wish I could take it on a long road trip on the highway (salt), because before the headers and EGR it made 27-27.5 MPG with non Ethanol Premium on the highway at 75 mph with a weeks worth of stuff loaded in the car for 2 adults and 2 little kids! Smile Thats always really impressed me with tow-pack gears!
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