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 Putting an Olds in an Olds

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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 2:38 pm

I've got a '91 OCC with a locked up 5.0 SBC. Anything I put in here that isn't a SBC is going to be work, so I thought I'd do something different to make the work a bit more unique. I bought an Oldsmobile because I'm from Olds town, and it just doesn't seem right to put a bowtie under the hood of a rocket, so that's where I'm going.

For the proof of concept, I'm just going to throw in a late '80s 307. I know I'll get dogged for this choice, but this is going to be a hauler/daily driver, not a drag car. Low RPM torque and economy are my primary concerns behind reliability, and that's exactly what the 7A heads were designed for (although I do plan to use the hotter H.O. cam). I really don't care about spinning the engine faster than 4,000 RPM. After I get the car on the road, I'll turn my efforts to building a fuel injected, roller valved, Rocket 350 that is worthy of the task.

I plan on using an adapter plate and keeping the 700R4, but my question comes down to the motor mounts. I've heard it said that the '90s bodies rode on the same chassis that goes back to 1977. Any idea how accurate that might be? If this is the case, it seems likely that I'll be able to use mounts from an '80s wagon and the engine should essentially bolt right in.

Surely I'm not the first person to try this in the last 25 years, but I sure haven't found documentation of anyone else doing it...
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Andebe

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:15 pm

Words I never expected to see close together. 307 and H.O.cam. Shocked You're the doctor. Wink
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:23 pm

Andebe wrote:
Words I never expected to see close together. 307 and H.O.cam. Shocked You're the doctor. Wink

To be clear, I'm talking about finding a VIN 9 roller engine, or putting a VIN 9 cam and springs on a VIN Y roller engine. These parts are not hard to come by.
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:31 pm

A for effort I guess…..
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:44 pm

307 olds,.

low rpm torque,..um,..
reliabilty,......um,..
economy,.....um,..

i think a 350 olds would out do the 307 in all 3 categories,..
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MalibuSSwagon



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:16 pm

Yes the chassis is the same 77-93. So mounts would work but your transmission may be moving due to the adapter..

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200OZ
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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:13 pm

I'd like to do this same swap, but I'm with Nick on the 350 Olds over the 307.

The vin 9 "H.O." was what, 10 more hp.?

Still intrigued though.
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:52 pm

My 81 Caprice wagon had a factory Olds diesel (converted 350) and it had a set of motor mount offsets to locate the mounts in the Chevy chassis. Suspect you will have to find the same offsets for your conversion.

Why stop at the 350. Why not the 455? Still lots of them out in the JYs. Lots of bottom end and if set up right would probably get better fuel mileage. Plus it would really get up and dance on Saturday night.

Bill
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paart



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:57 pm

Years ago, I had an ’85 Chevy Caprice wagon with a 305 (H) engine. It was an excellent engine, although I eventually replaced it with a 350. Shortly after getting the Chevy wagon, I came across an ’85 Buick sedan with a 307 for my wife to drive. I assumed the two engine’s performance would be comparable, based on displacement. What a surprise! The 305 out-performed the 307 in everyway! It got far better gas mileage, had better torque across the entire range and produced more top end horsepower. It’s also a less expensive engine to maintain, as parts for a small block Chevy are generally among the lowest priced parts available, due to popularity.

I’m not anti-Olds in any way. I replaced the wheezing, anemic, 307 smogger in my ’86 Buick Estate Wagon, with a 403 Olds that I built, and drove it 200,000 nearly trouble free miles. Obviously it had far more power than the 307, but the best part was that it got better gas mileage!

If you put a 307 in a ‘01, what are you going to do for an ECM? Do to number of factors, mainly the cylinder head design; the ignition timing requirements are quite different for an Olds, as compared to a Chevy.
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:14 am

Well, everybody likes to give crap to guys who want to run 307s; I'm glad you guys didn't disappoint... tongue

For starters, I'm not new to Olds 307s on B-bodys; this won't be my first dance.

Second, like I said in the OP, the 307 is proof of concept.  Thanks to Cash for Clunkers, the bigger Rockets are a bit harder to come by around here, but I can pick up a late 307 for about $100 and rebuild it for about $700. $266 of that is the HO cam, lifters & springs - which boosts the Y code engine from 140 to 170 HP.  Add the adapter plate (.125" thick, moving the engine about .0625" forward and the transmission .0625" aft - no biggie) for $120, and I have a fresh Olds making at least the same 170 hp as I had before at 400 RPM less for less than - $1000.

The 1991 ECM isn't a very smart box.  Sticking with the TBI and HEI distributor isn't going to be a big trick for the 307 with some minor hacks (old hat, for me). Down the road I'll probably patch in a MegaSquirt to optimize the curves for this specific engine (or maybe a FiTech that will later be moved over to the next engine), and I'll bet that I can get my 5 ft-lbs that I lost on paper back pretty easy.

I love the 403 as well (been there, done that, destroyed a couple THM400s), but this will be my wife's DAILY DRIVER.  I think that a properly optimized fuel injection system on a well built 350, will give a nice balance of performance and economy.  I fully expect to drop something north of $7k on the "real" engine.  That said, if a nice 403 and I crossed paths, I'd have a hard time letting it go.  

Again, the 307 is just a stop gap while I take care of other things, and if I don't have to fab motor mounts/offsets, that tells me what I need to know (thanks to Eric & Bill for the confirmation).  The rest of the systems I can take care of.
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Deadmanonduty



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 7:49 am

Can't you buy a nice used engine (of your choice) for cheaper and just run it, instead of rebuilding a 307? If it really is just for now, then I can't see rebuilding something.
Just my opinion tho.
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:31 am

The wife drives about 25k/year, and I expect it to take me 2-3 years to collect the parts for the 350 (or 403). I've got my eye on a nice 307 with 120k, which I should be able to overhaul with no major machine work. I'm sure I could throw it in there as-is and it would last her, but since I know zero about the engine's service history, freshening it up will give me some piece of mind.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:44 am

I think it's all about effort vs cost,.

I have extensive oldsmobile engine experience,.mostly tall deck blocks tho,. i have built 3 403's and i was always surprised at the power they made,.

to spend 1g on a 'stop gap' engine that is ineffecient in all aspects seems a waste of energy,and funds,..
as has been pointed out here by more than one, a decent running 350 can be had for much less than your
budget for the 307,.

there's a 350 olds with aluminum intake and trans in omaha for $350,..

But as i always say,.

You do what you want,. 'cause you're gonna anyway,.

Best of luck,.
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:07 am

Stepping back a second, the only thing I'm dead set on here is the concept of putting an Olds in an Olds. I didn't start this thread to debate the virtues of 307 v. 350, as I think the internet has pretty well beat that to death already. Just like my flexibility between 350 and 403 for the final build, if I were to come across a nice, "low mile" 350 that isn't going to require new slugs and a bunch of machine work to go through, I would certainly consider it for the short term build. I'm just trying to determine if the installation of an Olds V8 on a '91 B-body wagon is as straightforward as I have been led to believe. If it weren't for the fact that most of the 40-48 year old mills I've found are either worn out or owned by guys who think they are gold plated, not gold painted, there would be no question here.
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81X11

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:10 am

Olds 350 or 403 all the way. For the effort you're looking at, do it right. You'll be happier with the results of your efforts.

My 2-cents. I really like seeing an Olds in an Olds, but having owned three 307s, two 403's, and one Olds 350, I also know a bit about these. My favorite motor was the '71 Olds 350 I put in my '88 Cutlass. The 403's in my '79 Electra coupe and '78 Electra wagon are both good-running and strong too.

Dive into Craigslist and find a cheap 403 or 350. Again, the results will be worth the effort.

Take Care!

-Mike
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JaySS
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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:32 am


Dr.Oldsmobile wrote:
Well, everybody likes to give crap to guys who want to run 307s; I'm glad you guys didn't disappoint... tongue

The community comprehension skills seem to be taking a week off, don't take it personally.

Post lots of photos of your swap and everyone will be right there with the verbal backslapping and endless two-word replies to your updates.

BTW - Decent adapter plates are closer to 3/8" thick, but nothing the transmission mount can't accommodate.

Welcome aboard,

- J

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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:47 am

81X11 wrote:

Dive into Craigslist and find a cheap 403 or 350.

-Mike

Yeah, I wish.  So far, the only 350 I've come across on Craigslist is 200 miles away, "needs assembly" (read: I'll need an extra $500 in parts to finish it) and is $750.  3B heads (lightweight castings), and the crank is covered in surface rust.  I'll pass.

On the other hand, there's a swap meet at the Olds Homecoming on the 18th.  I don't know who's idea it was to schedule a family reunion in Lansing that weekend, but they deserve a prize.  If there's anywhere in the world that Rocket 350s are a dime a dozen, it's Lansing, Michigan.  I wouldn't drive 1,000 miles just to save a few bucks on a motor, but since I'll be there anyway, perhaps it's divine intervention.  Maybe Ransom Olds is smiling down on me.  We shall see...
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:55 am

JaySS wrote:


BTW - Decent adapter plates are closer to 3/8" thick, but nothing the transmission mount can't accommodate.



Thanks, Jay.  I know there are at least 3 different makers of these plates out there of various thickness, but I have yet to find a complaint that the mounts couldn't squish enough to accommodate.  The washers between the converter and the flex plate understandably sound like the biggest pain.  Worst case, I could elongate some holes on the mounts/offsets to cheat it a little, but it wouldn't surprise me if they aren't sloppy enough on their own without modification.

That reminds me of a story:  Back in the '70s, my family started a custom chassis manufacturing company in a little town south of Lansing.  When they were bolting the first prototype together, one of my uncles noted that some of the holes weren't lining up very well.  He asked, "How close should these holes be?"

The engineer replied, "That depends on the size of your hammer.  If you can't drive the bolt in, get a bigger hammer."
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MalibuSSwagon



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:26 am

Mike's perception is off since he's in Texas. Up in the rust belt most of those cars were junked and crushed over 20 years ago due to rust. My neighbor had a mid 70's Delta 88 that was rusted to dust that he offered me 10 years ago, had an Olds 350 but we couldn't get it going to drive to my parents house down the road, so I let the scrapper take it. So point is supply is short and prices are higher on old junk.
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Andebe

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:30 am

18 responses later,all more than 2 words btw,I like...love the idea of an Olds in a Olds. 307 H.O. just struck me as funny. Keep the posts coming,and I will do my part on the verbal back slapping. What a Face
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:54 am

MalibuSSwagon wrote:
Mike's perception is off since he's in Texas. Up in the rust belt most of those cars were junked and crushed over 20 years ago due to rust. My neighbor had a mid 70's Delta 88 that was rusted to dust that he offered me 10 years ago, had an Olds 350 but we couldn't get it going to drive to my parents house down the road, so I let the scrapper take it. So point is supply is short and prices are higher on old junk.

Yep, and if the rust didn't get them, Cash for Clunkers did.  My Grandmother had a '70 F-85 that my uncle (the one with the sledgehammer, above) took home after she died in '88.  He was going to restore it, but it was just too rusty.  He kept the motor, crushed the rest - grandpa wasn't happy.  I was just thinking that I need to ask if he ever did anything with that powerplant, but that's been 28 years.  Sure would be nice to have grandma's motor in my Olds, though.  I'm hoping to find a motor with a similar story in a couple Saturdays, because this kind of thing happens a lot up there.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:11 pm

Dr.Oldsmobile wrote:
Stepping back a second, the only thing I'm dead set on here is the concept of putting an Olds in an Olds.  

Fair enough,.

there's enough room under the hood and along the frame rails that you could very nearly mount anything you like in the hole,. from a 6bt,. to an lsa,.

So putting an olds into the hole on a frame that has had many different setups since 77,. really should be quite easy i would think,.

A nice batten headed 496, would be very cool in a big b body wagon,.

And in every ones defence ,. you certainly went into detail regarding 307 olds roller motors etc,..and also included a guesstimate for pricing,. so yes you did get a few replies regarding spending your money in a wiser direction,. all freely given by caring wagon owners wanting the best for a new member,..


thats all from me as i think i threw up a little in my mouth after that last load of twaddle,.
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Andebe

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:01 pm

Does Nick have a ghost writer? Suspect What a Face
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paart



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:12 pm

Have you considered eliminating the adapter by swapping-out the trans for a TH-200-4R? With the correct (previous B-body) parts, it’s a “bolt-in”. Since you are pulling the engine, it’s very little more effort to pull the trans with it.

As you probably know, it’s a very similar trans, with closer gear ratios, and shares a number of parts with its brother the TH-700-R4. Only GM would have developed and sold two nearly identical 4-speed automatics, at the same time!  Rolling Eyes  

If you should go this route, the early ’82-’85 units were troublesome, but by 1986 GM had most of the problems worked out. A well rebuilt late one with a Trans-Go shift-kit, is a nice transmission.
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Bert Slater

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:30 pm

the old days, when you could wonder through a scrapper's yard and identify old hemi's and other big blocks, all with less than 60k and available for 50 each.
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MG Davis

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:39 pm

It could be worse. He could be asking about what size mud tires fit an RMW.

phantom 309 wrote:
Dr.Oldsmobile wrote:
Stepping back a second, the only thing I'm dead set on here is the concept of putting an Olds in an Olds.  

Fair enough,.

there's enough room under the hood and along the frame rails  that you could very nearly mount anything you like in the hole,. from a 6bt,. to an lsa,.

So putting an olds into the hole on a frame that has had many different setups since 77,. really should be quite easy i would think,.

A nice batten headed 496, would be very cool in a big b body wagon,.

And in every ones defence ,. you certainly went into detail regarding 307 olds roller motors etc,..and also included a guesstimate for pricing,. so yes you did get a few replies regarding spending your money in a wiser direction,. all freely given by caring wagon owners wanting the best for a new member,..


thats all from me as i think i threw up a little in my mouth after that last load of twaddle,.
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TheRoadmasterKing



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:51 pm

I like the idea of putting an Oldsmobile 307 into a Custom Cruiser. If I recall correctly, the 1988 Pontiac Safari wagons had the 307 in them. I seen them before and they're real good reliable motors!
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steel-and-fire



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:06 pm

I hope this project goes well, and I'll be keeping an eye out on it.

My 89 Buick is running the 307. The one thing it has going for it is its running the computer controlled carb. Say what you want, but when its working, you don't have a lot of the issues of a traditional carb.

I think the good Doctor has a slight advantage putting any SBO into the OCC, because the car is at least setup to take fuel injection, and the accessories aren't the opposite as they are in say an 89 Caprice with a 305.

Getting the engine to run EFI will be the biggest task I think, since he plans to use the factory computer. I'd worry about the A/C clutch and lockup converter. TBI wouldn't be too hard, but anything past that then it goes into modifying intake manifolds with fuel rails and a more advanced computer. I have yet to find an off the shelf SBO/BBO manifold pre-prepped for Sequential or Multiport EFI.

In regards to the 2004r, they are slightly expensive on the rebuilt side, but can take a good amount of power/torque when they are. The 7004r are plentiful, would work fine with an adapter plate, and you don't have to worry about changing drive-shafts since its slightly longer than the 2004r.
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:10 pm

paart wrote:
Have you considered eliminating the adapter by swapping-out the trans for a TH-200-4R? With the correct (previous B-body) parts, it’s a “bolt-in”. Since you are pulling the engine, it’s very little more effort to pull the trans with it.

As you probably know, it’s a very similar trans, with closer gear ratios, and shares a number of parts with its brother the TH-700-R4. Only GM would have developed and sold two nearly identical 4-speed automatics, at the same time!  Rolling Eyes  

If you should go this route, the early ’82-’85 units were troublesome, but by 1986 GM had most of the problems worked out. A well rebuilt late one with a Trans-Go shift-kit, is a nice transmission.

Yes.  I had a 307 powered '82 LeSabre, which I *loved* - but for the 200R4.  Destroyed two of those, but the gear ratios and rear end couldn't have been more perfect.  That thing would throw down the torque and wheel hop all day long; scared the crap out of me the first time I did that.  I thought I'd busted something in the suspension.  After toasting the 2nd 200R4, I put a THM350 in it and that ruined the car.  More reliable, but boring.

At one point I considered just buying an '86-'90 BOP wagon for a driveline donor, but the ones I've found are either knocking, locked up, or gold plated.

I'm sticking with the original transmission to keep the existing systems (speedo, cruise, etc.) happy, and it's already a beefy truck-spec gearbox.  I already know I'd like the gearing of the 200R4 better, but the adapter plate is much cheaper than a built 200R4 and that's one less lie to the ECM that I have to compensate for.  For this project, I think the 700 is the winner.  

A nice 2-door Delta or LeSabre with a big Olds and a 200R4 is on the to-do list, but I gotta take care of momma first.
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:36 pm

steel-and-fire wrote:
I hope this project goes well, and I'll be keeping an eye out on it.

My 89 Buick is running the 307. The one thing it has going for it is its running the computer controlled carb. Say what you want, but when its working, you don't have a lot of the issues of a traditional carb.

I will say that my '82 307 wasn't exactly thrilling in stock form, but when I opened up the exhaust and figured out how to lie to the ECM, it got a lot more interesting.

steel-and-fire wrote:
Getting the engine to run EFI will be the biggest task I think, since he plans to use the factory computer. I'd worry about the A/C clutch and lockup converter. TBI wouldn't be too hard, but anything past that then it goes into modifying intake manifolds with fuel rails and a more advanced computer. I have yet to find an off the shelf SBO/BBO manifold pre-prepped for Sequential or Multiport EFI.

Without a doubt, EFI will be the biggest challenge. That's one of the advantages to sticking with a 307.  If I adapt the TBI in place of the Q-jet, the existing SBC mapping is probably close enough, perhaps with minor adjustments in fuel pressure regulation or maybe a resistor on a temperature bulb.  Stepping up to a 350 or 403 is much more likely to require a bigger fuel pump, different injectors, and/or a MegaSquirt in the middle to actually drive the injectors.
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MalibuSSwagon



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:12 pm

I almost bought a 89 Caprice wagon last fall from a neighbor, but the rotted frame and beat body kinda put me off. Ran great but oh well.

Check into this for cheap EFI [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:39 pm

MalibuSSwagon wrote:


Check into this for cheap EFI ht p: //w w.grimers,com/vehicles/olds/403efi/

That's good stuff.

"Impressive that you can take a total mismatch of GM parts and it will run and drive without setting a code, says a lot about GM engineering."

I've got a friend that fixed his Subaru issues by using GM EFI parts.  

I always thought that Caddy port injection setup should have performed better than it did; makes me wonder how much it could have been helped with some simple tuning.

I did a pretty nasty mismatch a few years back.  It was pretty good accept the new (old) engine had no oil level sensor in the pan like the original did.  The low oil light shouldn't be connected to anything, but it comes on & off at random. scratch
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MG Davis

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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:32 pm

Dr.Oldsmobile wrote:
 The low oil light shouldn't be connected to anything, but it comes on & off at random. scratch

I'm not sayin it was aliens...
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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:48 am

I'm a fan of the Olds in an Olds concept, and the idea has been crossing my mind since before getting my Olds. I know of a guy in Louisville, KY with a 455 stuffed where a 307 used to live in a 80's Caprice wagon and he loves it. When I was growing up, Dad had a '87 Cadillac Brougham with a 307 and the car got around pretty good. I have no doubt that TBI can be made to work on the engine and it should serve well until a more suitable replacement can be had.
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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:12 am

I was really hoping after olds in olds and unique that you were going put an olds aurora power plant in there.

There's still time..
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Dr.Oldsmobile



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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Sun Jun 19, 2016 8:13 am

A Northstar was one option we discussed...

Turns out, the 350 that was pulled out of my grandma's 1970 F85 is available. The powerplant question is answered.
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Location : Green Bay, WI

PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   Sun Jun 19, 2016 3:50 pm

The north stars are nightmares. I have one now with a head gasket leak and an independent shop wants $2,500 to repair it. The whole engines not worth that.
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PostSubject: Re: Putting an Olds in an Olds   

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Putting an Olds in an Olds
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