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lamune

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PostSubject: transmission mount shims   Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:00 pm

Ok, for today's weird question. How many shims are supposed to be on the transmission mount?

One came off with the mount on the old transmission. The bolts now bottom out on the replacement transmission before getting tight.

The picture in the book shows 3 shims. Old transmission has gone back and I can't see if there may have been some stuck to it that I didn't notice.

So either I sent some shims back and need to replace them, or the transmission case is different and the mounting bolt holes are shorter. Anyone know for sure?
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:15 pm

It's amazing how little i know,.

I,d use shorter bolts,. then see when its altogether, if the drive shaft looked out of line,. (don't look too long) then i,d drive it,. and if it didn't vibrate anytime between 1 and 141 mph,..
I,d just leave it alone,..

YRMV
NWEOI
PDCC
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:52 pm

OK Nick, that seems logical. Is there anything you'd do to make sure the shaft is lining up properly other than eyeball and road test? Magnetic bubble level stuck the the tranny pan?
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Aug 27, 2016 11:58 pm

IF it vibrated,.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:28 am

Well this just keeps getting better. There's more to this than my question would lead to believe. The answer is that I need a correct tailshaft housing for our cars to put the transmission mount in the right place.

As to why- the new transmission didn't come with a tailshaft cover, so you need to swap it over. They supply new bushings and seals. When I was pressing out the old bushing I didn't realize that the bore is tapered and I ended up splitting the tailshaft cover in half.

I got a replacement, but it's from a different vehicle and in our cars the mount goes on the tailshaft cover and not the transmission case. The bolt hole lengths are different and obviously the mount ends up in the wrong place making it impossible to install the crossmember.

So now I'm stuck until I get a proper tailshaft cover.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:03 am

Kudo's for you fixing stuff yourself,..

inmho the trans should have come ready to bolt in,...?

Unless the bushing and seal were bad, i would have done a quick swap and carried on,.

Adding all new parts makes people feel good tho,...

you pressed the bushing in the wrong direction?

Did you break something else recently with that press of yours?
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Aug 28, 2016 12:51 pm

I will have to check, but I may be able to get a tailshaft housing for you over Labor Day weekend.

There should be 2-3 shims and an exhaust pipe hanger/counterbalance.
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Rev Bob



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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:05 pm

The shims are used to achieve identical angles on the transmission output shaft and the pinon shaft on the differential. With the vehicle at ride height, a protractor level is used to make sure the angles are the same. Other than having a wheel lift hoist, or a drive on pit, this is hard to check.

Unless there is collision damage, the factory shim pack thickness shouldn't have to be changed.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:03 pm

phantom 309 wrote:

inmho the trans should have come ready to bolt in,...?

Agreed. I was expecting a 100% complete part.

phantom 309 wrote:

Unless the bushing and seal were bad, i would have done a quick swap and carried on,.

It was worn down to the base metal.

phantom 309 wrote:

you pressed the bushing in the wrong direction?

Did you break something else recently with that press of yours?

My fault for not watching someone do it on youtube first.

Indeed. My shop press has a pretty low success rate at fixing things.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:05 pm

Fred, no worries. I'll get one from a trans parts supplier, it'll have a new bushing installed and I won't have to deal with it anymore.

Thanks Bob, since I know what the problem is and what the shims looked like before it will go back the way it came apart.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:44 pm

Well, I may as well add this weird finding to my own thread here.

Today's headscratcher- I know you've been waiting for it Nick Smile

Got the new trans cooler lines run and connected. The steering damper clearly interferes with the lines, and I can't figure out why or if they were hitting before. Anyone see this happen before? Note, image inverted- up is down.

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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:56 am

The trans cooler lines have a slightly different bend for the cars with the steering damper. They are aluminum, so you can probably bend them with your hands to clear the damper.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:54 pm

That would explain it. I didn't see a different part number.

I thought it was aluminum too, but actually it's steel. I'll see if I can find a bender that'll work, I don't want to crush the line.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:43 pm

I bent mine a lot when installing the 454, and did not kink anything. Just use smooth shallow bends, and you can do it by hand. You only have to move them about 1/2 inch.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:49 am

I got an inexpensive bender at Autozone and tested it on the old lines- it works great. I'll get the damper out and get that line bent and out of the way.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:19 am

I may as well add this to close the loop. Got the proper replacement tailshaft housing and now the mount can go where it's supposed to.



Also, don't be like me. Don't do this in the first place.

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Mon Sep 12, 2016 8:11 am

Be careful, the part number for a new transmission mount gets you a piece that is about 1/4 inch taller than the original, and may not fit properly. The guy who rebuilt my trans about 3 years ago found one that uses a bolt from the bottom, instead of having a stud. It is the correct height. He has since retired, and I do not have the part number for the one he used.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:18 am

I didn't check that carefully. The old mount is a little squished and cracked, so probably isn't at the proper height anyway. It passes the phantom 309 eyeball test though.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:44 am

Eyeball test is not good enough. You have to measure it.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Sep 17, 2016 12:17 pm

Any idea what the stock height of the mount is/was supposed to be?

Let me edit this;

I made a test article out of cardboard using the old mount as a guide. The new mount seems to be a little taller, maybe a sixteenth or slightly more. Their shapes are different, but the height seems close enough that my armchair mechanics suggests it's probably not a problem. Thanks for pointing out that potential issue Fred.

So, moving along. Next step is "Make sure the weld nuts on the torque converter are flush with the flywheel" okay, let's take a look.



affraid Not even close. I would guess the converter has to sit all the way in its bore, but is that not true? Is it just too far in? Or is something else likely going on?

The cases are mated, nothing is pinched between the motor and trans.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:28 pm

According to Circle D, you should not move the torque converter more than about 1/8 inch toward the flywheel. You can shim the TC to flywheel with washers that are the same thickness (check them with a micrometer) If that is the original TC, it should be OK to just bolt it up, but I installed a new one on my trans, and Circle D sent me some shim washers with those instructions. There were some standard steel washers, and some thicker heat treated ones. Fortunately I did not need any of them. If you are interested in them, you can have them for the cost of shipping (I have to locate them). I think excess movement may affect the engagement of the lockup feature.

A 16th of an inch should not make a noticeable difference in alignment. The part that triggered my reaction on my car was not having enough room for the stud to clear the trans crossmember when I lifted the trans until it hit the tunnel. You might leave one of the shims out to get clearance, and that should not make any difference either.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:40 pm

Fred, thanks. I might take you up on the washers offer.

I found reference that up to 3/16" was considered normal. This gap was a bit bigger than that, but I figured I'd bolt it up and see what happens. It seems to work, and no fluid is pouring out. I have some drippage coming from the cooler line fittings on the transmission which is pretty miserable to try and fix- I'll see if I can get a tool in there to tighten them up.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:12 pm

You need 2 wrenches so that you do not twist the lines. One for the fitting, and one for the nut. It is not fun. I got the guy who installed my exhaust to tighten them when he had it on the lift. I think I may have even tightened them further. I chased leaks for about a 3 months when I swapped engines. I finally got all of them...fuel, brakes, trans fluid, and coolant. The only things that did not leak were the steering, and oil. One of these days I am going to install an oil cooler, and I expect that it will leak as well.

If your instructions say to not move it more than 3/16th of an inch, you should heed the instructions. It would be a shame to ruin something, when following the instructions will lead to success.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:36 am

Fred, when it cools down I'll go in and recheck to leak source. Looks like I misread and overfilled the transmission, so it may have been dripping out of the vent tube.

I have a ticket open with the remanufacturer about the gap distance, just to verify that I do or don't need to install a spacer there. Looks like some grade 8 washers are used by some people to fill in the gap.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:31 am

The washers will probably cost less to buy locally than the cost to ship them.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:59 pm

grade 8 washers are overkill,.If you really want to over engineer it,. make sure the washer stacks are within a few grams of each other,. otherwise at rpm over 10,000 its going to vibrate,. Rolling Eyes
If the pump slot is engaged and its not leaking,. it will be fine,.over analyzing or over engineering can sometimes slow a project right down,..
And any project that leaks after final assembly shows poor mechanical skills,.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Sep 18, 2016 2:33 pm

phantom 309 wrote:
grade 8 washers are overkill,.If you really want to over engineer it,. make sure the washer stacks are within a few grams of each other,. otherwise at rpm over 10,000 its going to vibrate,. Rolling Eyes
If the pump slot is engaged and its not leaking,. it will be fine,.over analyzing or over engineering can sometimes slow a project right down,..

I shouldn't have specified grade 8. These are M10 bolts so what you need is at least a 9.8 washer!

Weighing them and bucketizing by .1g increments sounds like a really good idea. However you should also measure them with a micrometer and sort them by .1mm or smaller thicknesses so your flex plate doesn't wobble at 10k or higher.

In all honesty yes, you're probably right, but I don't think it hurts to ask the manufacturer just in case. The fact that their instructions don't specify a gap distance in this instance (but other sources, like the FSM, do) does raise a little doubt.

But hey, I put it together, and it works. Maybe that's good enough Very Happy

phantom 309 wrote:

And any project that leaks after final assembly shows poor mechanical skills,.

Rawr! Hiss! Guess we're not good plumbers.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:47 pm

bucketizing,....... i actually had to google that,. way above my pay grade,.

When i put something together,. i like to thrash it hard right away,. if it doesn't leak, make noises, or vibrate,. i,m happy,.

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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:37 pm

Nick, I agree with that Smile

So I did figure out why the lines were leaking- I stupidly forgot to recalculate the torque wrench setting when using a crowsfoot wrench, since it's offset from the center of rotation. The lines were thus undertorqued and leaky. I can't get the torque wrench in there now that the trans is installed, so I thought- "What would phantom309 do?" and I tightened the fittings in-place until they stopped leaking. Done. The Snap-On crowsfoot wrenches are great, I was glad to get a used set for a decent price. Way nicer than the cheapo ones I tried from Amazon. (but cost 3x as much, ouch)

So back to the torque converter story. I spent about a week trading emails with the remanufacturer exchanging numbers and measurements- and I would say it's very likely they have no idea what a "normal" gap between a fully seated converter and flex plate should be.

Anyway without me asking, I have a new (reman) torque converter sitting in a box here with a note from them asking me to check against this new unit and if necessary swap it out.

My plan is to pop off the inspection cover and compare measurements. It looks the same to me, and given that the car drives just fine and isn't leaving puddles of transmission fluid behind (a new feature!) I'm not inclined to swap it out. Also the one that's in there now is painted a much more interesting color which is good for at least 12 HP.

One thing I wanted to add about that no leak thing- it turns out that the car came with a jacked up transmission dipstick tube. It was not installed properly, and although the seal was seated on the stick where it was supposed to be, the whole thing was sitting out of the hole almost completely. So it's very likely the thing never had the right amount of fluid in it. Also explains the leaking.

I fixed that issue, but now I'm getting inconsistent readings on the dipstick. Just out of curiosity, how far up the stick is the fluid on a stone cold car that's been sitting, say, 12 hours or so?

Aside from some minor fitment issues with the new cats and a slight exhaust leak I need to address, the car is moving under its own power again!
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:50 pm

lamune wrote:


I fixed that issue, but now I'm getting inconsistent readings on the dipstick. Just out of curiosity, how far up the stick is the fluid on a stone cold car that's been sitting, say, 12 hours or so?  

If its above the add mark and below the full mark when its running,.  it's all good,.

No slipping is important,. torque convertor locking up is important,.

It really helps to turn the stereo up loud and concentrate on good tunes,. rather than think too much about whats going on, because worrying leads to paranoia which leads to risperdal dependancy,. albino
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:48 pm

You can only check the trans fluid when the engine is running. Warm is better than cold.

I had a friend help me to remove my trans filler tube...he decided to use a screw driver and a hammer...cut a big hole in the tube. I had to replace it. It is not fun when you have a 454 in the car. I had to bend the tube a little to get to the dipstick beside the valve cover for access. The tube is held to the bracket on the back of the trans with a screw style hose clamp. I had to tighten it through the gap between the wheelhouse and frame with two long ratchet extensions.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:14 pm

Ok, thanks guys. I'll re-check after I drive it again. It's weird that sometimes warm, idling, in park I read over the max mark, and sometimes it's down at the loop.

I'm just glad I'll make the car show this friday! I love showing the car off. Too many people don't know about the humble full size station wagon.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Wed Oct 05, 2016 6:06 am

""in park I read over the max mark, and sometimes it's down at the loop.""

Is there any sign of foam in the oil? The fluid needs to be solid with no bubbles. Air entrapped in the oil might give varying readings.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:09 pm

No foam, Bob. I'd imagine foam would be caused by air being sucked in somewhere.
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Rev Bob



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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:34 pm

""I'd imagine foam would be caused by air being sucked in somewhere.""

Right. That was my concern.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Oct 08, 2016 8:15 pm

Yep, no foam. Seems to be OK.

Now that the dipstick is sitting where it's supposed to, I guess I never really paid it much attention other than to make sure the fluid was clean and the thing wasn't slipping.

The metal is very shiny and looks wet all the time. The viscosity of the warm fluid is so low that it's hard to see. When it's cold and thick the red color is really obvious.

Anyway, thankfully, it has those two holes in it. And I can see that the fluid is at least up to the upper hole. It may be overfilled, but I can't tell by how much.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:43 pm

The dipstick usually has a cold and hot mark on it, at least the TBI dipstick does.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:04 am

Oh yeah, it has marks, and the two holes- I just can't see the fluid. I only see it filling the holes.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:30 am

lamune wrote:
Oh yeah, it has marks, and the two holes- I just can't see the fluid. I only see it filling the holes.

Maybe drilling a few more holes between the upper and lower holes will give you a much more accurate reading of the fluid level,... What a Face
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Oct 09, 2016 12:23 pm

phantom 309 wrote:

Maybe drilling a few more holes between the upper and lower holes will give you a much more accurate reading of the fluid level,... What a Face

I was thinking exactly that, but I should get another dipstick before I gave it a try. That springy steel may be hard to drill. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Oct 09, 2016 1:46 pm

If you break it, you will not have a dipstick to check the fluid with.

Use a carbide or diamond tip drill, and keep it oiled.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:46 pm

Yes, like I mentioned to Nick, I wouldn't try it unless I had a spare. If you see one in the yard, grab one for me, Fred Smile
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:15 pm

Clean the end of the dipstick with scotchbrite or steel wool. They tend to tarnish over time. Fluid is easier to see against a shiny stick.
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:32 pm

lamune wrote:
Yes, like I mentioned to Nick, I wouldn't try it unless I had a spare. Smile

I was kidding,...  don't drill anymore holes in the dipstick,. its not that critical,..

I keep forgetting i have been playing with,. breaking,. and fixing cars for 40 some years,.
I too have taken stuff apart, wrecked them,. fixed them, then wrecked them again,.
bearings and seals in the wrong way,. big hammer when it should have been tapped gently,.
broken drills,. broken taps,. burnt things to a crisp,.rounded bolt heads,. cracked and split stuff,.
had stuff fly apart and come undone,.pried stuff apart to then find the hidden bolt,.yada yada,.

So even tho i bust your balls sometimes,.(no malice intended by the way) kudo's to you for giving it a go,. and not running off to the stealershp,....experiience and education,. is always the product of mistakes,.and Fhukups,

Carry on,. you're doing a fine job of getting experience,.What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: transmission mount shims   Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:00 am

Nick, no offense taken. I'm from New Jersey. I'm used to people giving terse answers to questions and being brutally honest. And I also learned long ago that when dealing with people online in text-based communication that unless someone tells you they're giving you a hard time you should not assume it. I think that's something everyone should take to heart.

And I totally believe that you or anyone else who has gotten to "that" level of auto mechanics didn't break a ton of things in the process. I know too many mechanics to know that's how it works.

I did first learn how to fix German cars by a German guy, so I do tend to err on the side of precision and caution. And should I end up with the Buick at the dealership, I would consider that a total failure Very Happy

Anyway, I would have given drilling that dipstick a try just to see what happened, if I had a spare. Drilling springy steel like that is really tricky.

The problem is really that for some reason the bottom of the stick is super shiny. And the top has rust on it, too. I think Ed's suggestion was the right way to go, but not to make it shinier, but make it duller. I did hit it with some emory cloth and it did take some of the shine off. I'll see if that helps. If not I'll see if someone at work has a bead blaster, that should make it nice and frosty looking, which should make the wet area on the stick much more obvious.

And yes I realize it's not really that critical. If it's not slipping or leaving puddles behind, it's probably fine. It'd be nice to be able to get accurate readings though.

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