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lamune

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PostSubject: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:52 am

I drove this thing home 50 miles in a rented minivan. I'm not sure what year it is, I think it's a 94. Came out of a 9C1 Caprice with "less than 100k miles". It's been sitting outside under a tarp for a few years. I guess the tarp didn't do much good, when I turned it over it vomited a bunch of rusty water out the exhaust manifolds. I see one of the exhaust manifold bolts snapped off in the head, as a nice added touch.

I'll get it on the stand tomorrow and start taking it apart and see what I got myself into. The "idea" is to rebuild this motor so I can use the wagon to transport the motor parts back and forth from whomever is rebuilding it, as well as not having to take the wagon offline for a few months if I rebuild the motor I have.

Now my garage has the parfum "eau du junkyard". Not sure what that smell actually is, but you know it when you smell it. Very Happy

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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:37 am

lamune wrote:
when I turned it over it vomited a bunch of rusty water out the exhaust manifolds. I see one of the exhaust manifold bolts snapped off in the head, as a nice added touch.

Make sure you check for cracks everywhere, water -> ice etc,..

I,m really surprised it turned over if the water came from a bore, usually they rust themselves tight

A mig welder will get the broken exhaust bolt out easily,.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:12 am

A left hand drill bit may work on the broken bolt as well.
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JaySS
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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 06, 2016 3:24 pm

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lamune wrote:
I drove this thing home 50 miles in a rented minivan. I'm not sure what year it is, I think it's a 94. Came out of a 9C1 Caprice with "less than 100k miles".

Silicone hoses and screw clamps would certainly indicate a 9C1.

The dipstick would be at least '95.

And the AIR hose routing would imply a late '95.

Never seen a water pump cover with the ribs oriented vertically before now.

- J

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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:07 pm

Jay, thanks, that does help pin it down. The AIR seems different than what I recall was on my '95, but it's definitely not a '96 as there's no crank position sensor. I was wondering if maybe someone took the water pump cover off and put it back on wrong. Smile

Nick, ice damage is something I hadn't thought of. I'll check it out carefully when I get the heads off. I think I'll leave the snapped bolt alone for the time being. I'm sure the shop can deal with that better than I can if the heads are rebuildable.

I got it on the stand and stripped down to "long block" configuration.

There's a lot of evidence on the top end of water infiltration. I don't think it's fatal. The inside of the intake is horrifying though. At least the throttle was closed, there weren't any spiders in there, but there were plenty elsewhere. I think the intake needs some pro-level cleaning attention once I get the dead slugs and moss off of it. Tons of white aluminum corrosion powder all over.

Bottom end looks ok. Mostly oil came out when I drained it, with some water initially and then some chunky sludge at the end.

The water passages are basically full of rust and black crap. Nothing came out when I took the knock sensors out, I had to poke through a layer of black stuff to get it to drain!

Also two of the flex plate bolts wouldn't budge and got rounded off. I'll probably have to grind them down. I'll bet the heads are just rust-welded to the plate (hopefully)

The damper and crank snout are also one piece now. The snout has a nice seal ridge ground into it, as does the water pump drive.

Here's a picture, you can see where #5 threw up out the plug hole. #8 did the same thing.

And the wife is complaining about the smell. Smile

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Sprocket

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 07, 2016 9:26 pm

nice..... I broke my water pump drive off trying to get the pump off. Some nice person on the ISSF sent me a new one gratis (another wanted $70 bucks for one).

You have to pull the crank snout to get the timing cover off as well as the pan (but you will probably do all that anyway)...or you could got to an electric pump. but from what I see you will open it all up to check....good luck!
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:24 pm

Thanks Sprocket. This is the fun part! Taking it apart! Yep, it's pretty much all apart. Only thing left is to take the lifters and cam out, knock out the soft plugs, etc.

In my non-expert opinion, I think aside from the preventable damage from poor storage conditions, the motor looks like it's in pretty good shape. I'm sure one of you guys must have rebuilt something in worse condition than this.

I checked the bores and I don't see any cracks, at least with a cursory visual inspection. If there's some technique I should use to double check, let me know.

Crank looks like it's ok. Some of the cam lobes are rusty. The rods may be salvageable, a couple of them are very stiff due to rust at the wrist pin. Not sure if they can be saved. I thought these motors had floating wrist pins, but I guess not. If the crank can be saved that'd be great, I'm not so concerned about the rest of the moving parts.

No obvious evidence of a blown head gasket. The piston bearings look really worn to me, I'm not sure though what they should look like after 100k miles or so.

In any case, so far I have what appears to be a usable block. When I get the crank out I guess I'll know for sure. I'll have to clean up the heads as well and see if they are good for re-use.

In thinking about what I want to do with this, I think more power isn't really what I'm after, what I want is the smoothest, quietest motor I can assemble befitting a luxury yacht. Maybe I'll even paint it gold.

Here's some pictures! Smile

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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:53 pm

Success! Broken bolt (left) extracted successfully! My success rate with that is vanishingly small without acetylene or mig welder. I also had to drill through and remove the oil gallery plug up by where the sensor is. Got that out too without any collateral damage. Smile

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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:48 am

well done,.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:56 am

I have a nice gm845 camshaft (crane p/n 109821) for you. It seems foolish to put the stock one back in at this point. 300$ shipped. Will work great with the crane springs you have.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:17 pm

phantom 309 wrote:
well done,.

Thanks Nick Smile After the thread chasers come, I can clean that all up and make sure it's good.

jasonlachapelle wrote:
I have a nice gm845 camshaft (crane p/n 109821) for you.  It seems foolish to put the stock one back in at this point.  300$ shipped.  Will work great with the crane springs you have.

Ooh, temping Jason. That stock cam may be bad after all the water that got on it- not sure yet. But I should investigate what the full Crane setup will do. The springs and rockers were fun to play with, but I'm pretty sure they're best for high-end power unless I'm completely mistaken. (which is entirely possible)
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:03 pm

They are fine on their own since your stock valvesprings were undoubtedly worn out. You probably gained more from replacing the tired springs but the rockers will add 5-10 hp on a stock engine.

If you're rebuilding an engine and the cam is out, you may as well replace it even if it's still nice.  The cost of the cam itself is negligible.  It's the labour that's the killer. There's a place right by where you live (delta cams in Tacoma) that regrinds cams as well, but if yours is in bad shape they might not accept it.

The GM845 (crane 109821) and crane 227 have been proven over the years and work fine with stock heads (with aftermarket springs, of course).
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:11 am

I read up on how cams actually work, so I have some more clues now as to why you'd go longer duration and lift and why race motors idle so badly! I'm guessing since GM uses the same cam in a Fleetwood as we get in the Roadmaster, it must make for a smooth running motor if everything else is in good shape.

A couple of the cam lobes have some rust, and there's a little on the spiral gear on the back. Thanks for the tip, if I'm down in Tacoma I can bring it along and see if it's good or not. I didn't investigate yet though what a stock cam goes for, maybe it's not even worth the trip.

I got the crank out finally, I had to grind/cut/bash the heads off of two of the flexplate bolts which were rust-welded to plate. When I finally got the head free, the remains of the bolt came out finger tight. I pretty much expected that. Need a new flexplate after that, I put some deep cuts into it with the cutoff wheel.

I should mention that I didn't think grade 8 bolts are that hard to drill or grind. Cutoff wheel was the only thing that really worked.

Those 1/4" square drive NPT plugs are a huge pain. For the ones that refused to come out, the method that worked for me to get them out was to drill a 1/4" or larger hole right through them, then pound in a metric hex bit into the hole and apply torque from a very long ratchet.

In any case, the crank seems to be fine. You can see the gray oil/water amalgam on the bearing surfaces, but thankfully there wasn't enough water to rust them.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:05 am

I think Delta charges around 150$. You can probably get a stock LT1 cam for 25-40 bucks, but why would you ? I can see NOT changing a cam on a DD from which you don't want to pull the engine. But if you already have the engine out and disassembled, there are too many cheap options out there to reuse the stocker.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:30 am

Well, to paraphrase it: I see many options for "Camaro" and "Corvette" solutions, but I want Cadillac for this car.

When I swap the engines I'll have another one to mess with, I may do something different with that one.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:33 pm

lamune wrote:
Well, to paraphrase it: I see many options for "Camaro" and "Corvette" solutions, but I want Cadillac for this car.


that doesn't actually mean anything. There are LT1 cams that are optimized for our heavy B-bodies. To paraphrase a wise man: do what you want, you're going to anyway.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:47 pm

cadillac is where its at!!

i think i strained something from laughing so hard,.,...

A little tip,.

when you have a bolt like a flexplate bolt, and it's exceptionally tight, and it starts to round off slightly,. quit before you completely screw it,. then take your biggest hammer and beat it! that will expand the head of the bolt a little and the shock will loosen it and make it easier to get out,.

assuming of course that a 6 point socket is being used,...not a 12 point,..
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:27 pm

Very Happy Nick, I'll give that a try next time, that makes sense.

Well, this kind of derailed into a cam discussion, which isn't something I know a whole lot about. I know what it does, it's basically a mechanical program for your engine. It's a fixed program though, and while there's a lot of info out there about how a cam works to generate more power at higher RPM, which is seemingly what everyone wants to do, there's very little info I can find that explains why the stock cam is set the way it is and what the intention of it is.

In any case, I'm probably asking the wrong questions since I'm not a motor tuning guy. Smile
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:56 pm

lamune wrote:
Very Happy Nick, I'll give that a try next time, that makes sense.

Well, this kind of derailed into a cam discussion, which isn't something I know a whole lot about. I know what it does, it's basically a mechanical program for your engine. It's a fixed program though, and while there's a lot of info out there about how a cam works to generate more power at higher RPM, which is seemingly what everyone wants to do, there's very little info I can find that explains why the stock cam is set the way it is and what the intention of it is.

In any case, I'm probably asking the wrong questions since I'm not a motor tuning guy. Smile

Stock cams are indeed a mechanical program for the hard parts in the valve train,.

The factory when it designs a cam, it does so with a whole lot of baggage necessary for emissions, mileage, different climates yada yada,. etc,.
The factory computer program the same way,.

As you know the computer program can be tweaked to your liking,. better pulling power with different timing curves,. quicker fueling for better throttle response etc,.quicker later shifts etc etc,.

Same for a camshaft,. like a computer program cams can be tweaked almost infinitely,. the cam can stay the same but can be installed in an advanced position or a retarded position,. and that in itself will change the power curve of the engine,..so cams are quite a science,.

You can choose a cam that will give you better fuel mileage,. better torque etc,.and you will not know its even in there,. it will idle and sound just like a stocker,.with lots of vacuum etc,. but will be an improvement,.it'll pick its revs quicker,. it'll pull harder and will generally improve fuel mileage,.)IF you can keep your foot out of it) Wink

Then you can add increments into the cam until you end up with something that has a racy choppy idle and loves to run much higher rpm than stock,.and that is what most inexperienced people think a "cam" sounds like and acts like.

The suggestions put forward here have a lot of experience behind them, and are given to you to freely to help you improve your engine over stock,.by the BTDT crowd,.

My laundry list for you,.

IF you need valves,. buy bigger ones, the cost is almost the same,.and the machine shop can cut the seats very cheaply to fit them,.at least tell the machine shop you want a 5 angle cut on the seats,.

Take your time, read about port matching the intake to the heads,. pretty simple really just paint over the intake gasket as a guide and open up the port on the head so that its larger than the intake manifold port slightly,and matching the profile of the gasket exactly,..so the intake manifold runner is essentially dumping into a shallow funnel,.
Time consuming but cheap to do,.
Deck the heads and block the minimum necessary to true them up,. the slight increase in compression will help

Choose a mild torque cam.matched to your gear ratio, converter stall, and exhaust etc,.

A decent set of long tube headers,.and hi flo cats

Have the injectors cleaned and match flowed,.
or maybe JaySS will chime in here with a recommendation for better injectors,.

put the best hottest ignition on it that you can afford,.

Get your ecm tuned for the upgrades,..this is a 20 year old well worn path you are starting down, and most tuners have covered this ground many times before,.


I have had these lt1 cars since 1998,. and the most fun comes from a daily driver,. with a mild cammed motor and a 2800 converter with 3:73's or 4"10's,.  it makes the cars feel much lighter,. they will go up and down hills without locking and unlocking the converter all the time, and with stock width tires the fuel mileage usually stays the same,..and they will put a smile on your face as you surprise the car in the other lane,.

When i am modding one of these cars,. i start with the rear gears then converter, thats the best value for money, the motor gets done last, especially as an lt1 engine is quite capable of lasting 2-300,000 miles with the right maintenance,.

BDWYWYGA,... What a Face
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:43 am

Thanks Nick, that's a big help. And now that I know a little more, I have to apologize to Jason for not understanding what he was trying to say. Smile

There's a lot to think about. My reluctance is probably due to wanting to stick to stock specs and not deviate much since I'm a noob at this and want to stay close to a known quantity, even if that's not ideal. But you guys are making the point that I see now- which is simply while you have the thing apart you can improve it without getting out of hand.

Also everytime I've seen someone cam a motor, they always run like crap to me. Smile

Nick, your point though is another reason I may not have been so receptive. Tuning a car is not about engines, it's about system engineering, and you need to balance everything out properly. Just dropping a big motor in a B-car without changing many other things is probably not the best thing to do.

I've got the heads stripped down now, so I think I can assess what I have to work with. I can use the block, head castings, the crank, and maybe the rods. That's really it. All the other moving parts have rust damage and will be likely be tossed, or at least the labor involved in cleaning them up (like the valves) would probably not be worth it.

I didn't think you could fit bigger valves in there. They must not be much bigger, there doesn't look to me to be a lot of meat between the seats. How much bigger can you go?

I also wasn't thinking about porting the heads, but if they're completely apart and need reconditioning anyway, why not aside from the cost. I'll ask about that.

First step, I am guessing, would be to have the block decked, align honed, and cylinders bored out.

Here's a few more pictures... trigger warning, contains rust!

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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:34 pm

I cleaned up all the crud on the top of the block, and found the engine code

V0424XPC

I think that means it was made on April 24 in the Flint plant. Not sure what XPC means.

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:48 pm

Those valves...yikes!

before you plunk down money on heads/springs etc, keep in mind I also have a set of aluminium heads with a light port job I got from ISSF. They have new upgraded valvesprings already installed. You can save time and probably money, gain a few points of compression and shave off a few pounds. I'll give you a good deal.

regardless of what you choose to do, do NOT reuse the stock valvesprings on any LT1 heads you may end up using.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:29 pm

Jason, yeah, I don't intend to reuse any moving part out of those heads.

I might take you up on that, but I'm not sure I have any need for the Al heads on this build. I realize the Al and iron heads have their advantages and disadvantages.

By the way, since we were talking about it before and you mentioned it, is there any advantage to the stiffer springs other than faster closing at high RPMs to address valve floating issues?

Also, I found a scan of a book listing engine codes. XPC is the code for a 1995 Impala with automatic transmission and police package. No surprise there, that's what I was told it was pulled from.
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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:49 am

""is there any advantage to the stiffer springs other than faster closing at high RPMs to address valve floating""

None whatever in the RPM range at which this engine will be operating.
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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:09 am

They just control the valves better. It doesn't sound glamourous but it's pretty important.  Stock valvesprings were barely adequate when new.  On a higher-mileage engine, it's common to have valve float around 5400 rpm. It's just robbing you of several HP in the upper RPM range.
If you change the cam, the new springs will help you maximize its potential by bumping up the shift points.  Even with the stock cam (e.g. if you only do 1.6 rockers) you can bump up the shift points by a few hundred RPM to maximize performance.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:13 pm

Thanks Bob & Jason. The stockers look like 85lb and Vettes got 100lb.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 21, 2016 1:37 am

Not that it matters at this point, but do you guys think this motor had dexcool in it? I thought they switched in 96, but the brown wet sludge all throughout the block look very similar to what I see happens to dexcool.
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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:49 am

I remember reading somewhere, I think another thread here, actually, that in 1996 they were transitioning to the new Dex-kill and some GM cars made in early 1996 had the old green coolant in them but ones produced mid-year and from there on out had Dexcool in them.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:25 pm

I had read the same info, so it probably shouldn't have had Dexcool in it. But it was a police car, it's possible they may have changed it over to reduce maintenance costs. Or someone did it later. Or not. Smile

I can see the rainwater intrusion and the rust it caused, but the orange sludge in the coolant passages, water pump, and the like sure look like "Dex-Kill" videos on YouTurb.

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:50 pm

lamune wrote:
I had read the same info, so it probably shouldn't have had Dexcool in it. But it was a police car, it's possible they may have changed it over to reduce maintenance costs. Or someone did it later. Or not. Smile

I can see the rainwater intrusion and the rust it caused, but the orange sludge in the coolant passages, water pump, and the like sure look like "Dex-Kill" videos on YouTurb.


To "reduce maintenance" the police department should've stuck with the good old green coolant. Laughing
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:31 pm

TheRoadmasterKing wrote:

To "reduce maintenance" the police department should've stuck with the good old green coolant. Laughing

They did. You change the coolant along with the motor every 100k miles. Makes it way easier.
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lamune

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PostSubject: Re: Got something to play with   Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:25 am

I think this thread is done. I got the pistons and rods separated, so the engine disassembly is done.

I guess a new thread needs to be started- "what now?" Smile
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