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 New Moog front Control arms

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Skier



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PostSubject: New Moog front Control arms   Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:11 am

I Purchased all 4 front control arms (lifetime Moog) and plan on installing this winter and replacing the rest of the tie rods in order to have a complete new front end. I will also replace the springs

Any pitfalls to look for and suggestions?

I also plan on removing rear axle assembly and sand blasting to remove rust, paint with Chssis Saver paint and change gears from 2.93 to 3.42 or 3.73. I have a 2008 rear end with 3.73 gears and Eaton locker out of a Trailblazer/Envoy but don't know if it tapped for a reluctor. I will also remove trailing arms and and derust and paint. I have an anti-sway bar from a 1996 Caddy Fleetwood Brougham(sp) with 9.4" rear end that I will add to the lower trailing arms. This should keep me busy for the winter. I am also adding the Goodridge braided flexible brake hoses.

'95 BRMW Mid Adraitic Blue woodgrain delete.

Mods: Putnam Class 4 hitch, electric brake controller, dual electric fans from a 2008 Escalaide with tow package, cargo springs and load leveler shocks.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:01 pm

I don't know how much mileage your car has, but if you're doing the upper and lower control arms, it would be a good time to do the coilsprings and shocks if they're due.  Make sure you get new coilspring isolators (the blue ones) if you go that route.  New bumpstops (ZQ8) are pretty cheap now that dorman sells them.  If your brake rotors or pads are nearing the end of their life, now is a good time to do them since you have to pull everything off.

Proforged makes a great front end kit.  Also has a 1M mile warranty.  The company belongs to an ISSF member, Zack Kanter.  p/n 116-10010 (the centre link in this kit has NO provision for the steering damper.  They make the other centerlink).  You can sometimes find "open box" proforged stuff on amazon.com (as used, sold from amazon).  You can't buy directly from him anymore (summit or amazon) but he was great to deal with.  I've used 4 of his kits so far and have not had any failures [edit: on different cars].

the gotchas:
- reinstall the coilsprings right side up, and with the bottom end between the 2 drain holes on the LCA
- One of the torque specs in the FSM is way off.
- visually inspect the control arm prior to installation.  I got a bad one a few years back.  It was mangled at one of the bushing insertion points.
- just found out you may or may not be able to get the front ABS sensors out after 20+ years.  They are available from amazon (US only, of course) for pretty cheap.

You can buy a reluctor for NON-reluctor pinions from Bob Shirley on ISSF.  I don't know what kind of "locker" the 2008 truck had but if it's a typical truck locker, I wouldn't use it on a regular daily driven wagon.  If it's a regular eaton clutch type differential or a truetrac worm gear type  (The one I got a few years back said detroit locker on the box)  then it's fine.
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:09 am

Jason,

Which torque spec is way off and what should it be so I can correct my FSM?

I have new coils, isolaters and shocks. When I bought the wagon it needed new centerlink, idler arm and one outer tie rod. I replaced with Moog.

The Eaton locker is the worm gear type. Is the reluctor on the ring or pinion gear?

I have repeatedly tried to join the ISSF forum to no avail. It always says it does not like my e-mail address. I then send a message to find out why but never get a reply.

Thanks
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:31 am

ISSF really went downhill when Haack sold it.

95 FSM has wrong torque spec for upper and lower balljoint nuts (called Upper and Lower Steering Knuckle Nuts in the FSM), both listed at 125 ft-lb.  This is incorrect.

Upper ball joints nuts (7/8" socket): 61 lb ft.  Tighten until the torque wrench "clicks", then continue rotation until the next notch in the nut comes clear for the cotter pin to go through the knuckle. Do not exceed 60 degrees of additional rotation.

LH/RH lower ball joints nuts (15/16" socket): 83 lb ft.  Tighten until the torque wrench "clicks," then continue rotation until the cotter pin is cleared.  Do not exceed 60 additional degrees.

Here are the 1995 FSM specs (with corrections):
Fr Lower Control Arm Nut 92 ft-lb
Fr Shock Absorber Bolt/Screw 20 ft-lb
Fr Shock Absorber Nut 97 INCH-lb
Fr Stabilizer Shaft(sway bar)Clamp Bolt 24 ft-lb
Fr Stablizer Shaft Nut (end link) 18 ft-lb
Fr Upper Control Arm Nut 92 ft-lb
Fr UCA Pivot Shaft Nut 70 ft-lb
Fr Wheel Bearing Nut 12 ft-lb
Lower Steering Knuckle Nut (correct = 83 ft-lb)
Steering Linkage Outer Tie Rod Nut 35 ft-lb
Upper Steering Knuckle Nut (correct = 61 ft-lb)
Wheel Nut 100 ft-lb


The reluctor is on the forward end of the pinion.  Maybe someone has Bob Shirley's contact info.  I'm not entirely convinced the locker out of a stock GM truck would be a worm gear type diff, but I don't know enough about trucks or have enough time to look into it to add anything.


Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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brokecello
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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:19 pm


Since you will have the upper control arm out...would also be a good time to go ahead and replace your engine mounts too (if you have high miles).

I bought a coil spring compressor at Northern Tool and shortened the center threaded rod a little to make it easier to get the springs back in the arms.

Be sure to clean up and grease up the frame mount areas and mounting bushings on the control arms well. You might be surprised on how tight a fit the new ones will be. Did you get a good rubber mallet or dead blow?

Chris

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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:37 pm

When removing the spindle, use the home made tool in the Haynes manual. It consists of a 1/2 inch bolt, nut, washer, and 1/2 inch or 12mm long socket. It works great. See the instructions in the manual. Put plenty of pressure on the shaft, and whack the spindle at the shaft with a small sledge hammer. It will pop right out. Get new nuts for the upper arm studs. You are supposed to only use them for two tightenings. You will also find it much easier to remove the passenger's side upper arm if you tap the studs out, and reinstall them with the arm in place.

You may have to spread the flanges that hold the lower arm to the frame to get the bushings between them. When you tighten the bushings, have the vehicle's weight on the suspension. Put it on ramps for the bottom.

I would get nylock nuts for the anti roll bar standoffs.

When removing the springs, compress them with the weight of the car on ramps, then tighten the compressor on them. If you have trouble getting the new springs clocked right after inserting them, put the car's weight on them before putting the compressor on them, like the removal technique. Then they will be easy to rotate. If you use drop springs, you will probably have trouble getting them to sit in the lower pockets. The same technique works for drop springs.
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:13 am

Fred,

I have a Factory Service Manual, I will need to get a Haynes manual to see what this is about. Is this to remov the spindle from the steering knuckle?

Are the upper control arm studs, studs or bolts?

Are the flanges for the lower control arms on the frame or the control arms? I take it that when tightening the bushings either jack up the outer part of the control arm or put tire back on and lower on to the ramp?

Are anti-roll bar standoffs the same as sway bar end links, if so I have brand new ones as I had to replace sway bar and end links?

I read somewhere on this forum or ISSF that if the lower control arm can be pushed down low enough the spring will fall out. True or false?

On another note, you asked me on the electrical page what year of wagon I have for the location of the relay for courtesy lights. I have 1995 wagon. With the courtesy light fuze out when the car is running I hear a buzzng under the dash when any door is open. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Chris
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 8:26 am

The tool is used to remove the spindle from the knuckle. You loosen the nuts, but leave them on the studs. This allows the tapered stud to disengage, but does not allow the lower arm to fall freely, and release the spring. Often the BJs will let go with a bang. It sounds like a gunshot, so be forewarned. If for some reason any of them do not want to let go, apply maximum pressure with the tool, and walk away for a little while. It may let go after the pressure soaks in a little. Hitting the spindle with a hammer helps to accelerate the separation by temporarily deforming the taper in the spindle.

The upper control arm has studs in the frame. The area where you would find a smooth shank on a bolt is splined. the head is round/flat with no provision for a wrench. You can lift the arm enough to start the splines into the frame, then draw them tight by tightening the nut. It is like installing a wheel stud.

The flanges are on the frame, and the bushings fit between them. I used a crow bar to bend them just enough to slip the bushing between them. When you tighten the bolt, it clamps them on the toothed ends of the inside tube of the bushing. This is why they are difficult to get out, and then difficult to get in.

You can leave the upper and lower bushing bolts loose, and drive the car onto a pair of ramps to get access to the bolts. The alignment is not going to be that far off that the car will do any strange maneuvers, and you are not going to go fast enough to cause a dangerous situation. If you choose to jack the arm up, make sure the frame lifts off of the jackstand. You could put outer ends of both arms on jackstands to get the weight even for both sides. This will also get the jack out of the way. I would put the jackstands under the hub of the disk to get the most accurate deflection for a more correct position of the bushings. You can also put the tire back on, and jack it up until the frame lifts off of its jackstand. If you jack the tire, make sure the jack is at 90 deg. to the tire, so that it will not be forced out if the tire decides to roll. I had a jack shoot out from under the tire once. If the jack has 4 casters on it, do not use it for that application. The easiest and safest way is to use the ramps. You can tighten the top nuts with the car on the ground.

Anti roll bar is the correct name for what is often called a sway bar. It does not stop sway, it stops the car from rolling as much. The end links and standoffs are the same thing. If you lower the car with springs, you should put shorter standoffs between the arm and anti roll bar. It is easier to work on the front suspension with the anti roll bar removed. This is a good time to put a 9C1 front bar on the car, and new bushings as well. Be careful with the torque on the anti roll bar mounting bolts. They are tapped onto the frame, and do not have many threads. If you strip them, you have major work ahead of you.

Since you are replacing the entire arm, you can remove the spring with the arm. If you want to loosen the bushings, you can probably get the spring out by pushing the arm down. It will still require a little prying to remove it. Lowering springs will not go in happily, because they catch on the hole on the frame. I fought with mine until I relented and got a spring compressor.

Your audible warning system grounds the dome/courtesy light relay energizing coil. That would not affect the lights unless opening the door energizes it at the same time as the door are opened. The lights themselves are directly controlled by the switches in the doors, and the relay is a parallel circuit to ground using the audible warning module to activate it. The relay is probably on the convenience center, but I do not know which one it is.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:11 am

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Since you are replacing the entire arm, you can remove the spring with the arm.
preferred technique
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:18 am

Gents,

I replaced my anti roll bar with a used one from a 1993 wagon because the right arm of the bar was bent up ~ 1-1/2" and made the car lean to the left.

Is the 9C1 bar larger or smaller diameter?

When I bolted the new-used bar back in I stripped out the lower left side 10 mm threads on the frame. I tapped it out for a 7/16" course thread and used a 7/16" Allen head screw. With the springs out I may just epoxy or some other method nuts on the inside.

Are the upper control arm studs available from auto parts stores?

For the right front I have already had both ball joints loose when I attempted the install new spring unsuccessfully. I already have a new shock in. I broke the ABS sensor and had to replace it. I used a pickle fork and pitman arm puller to pop the ball joints.


Thanks

Chris
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 2:06 pm

The 9C1 bar is thicker. If you are going to put a rear bar on the car, you should upgrade the front.

The studs are available as a different part number, but the OEM part number is no longer available even in aftermarket parts. There was a write-up on this a while back, either here, or on ISSF. I do not know the part number. If you can not find any, I may be able to pull a couple from the junk yard here in FL.

You can not get into the frame to put nuts on the back side of the bar mounts.

Since you are replacing the ball joints, you can probably get away with a pickle fork. Pickle forks ruin the boots on the ball joints. The bolt and socket method does not ruin the boots.

BTW, if you have a 2.56 rear, you must get a special spacer to change gear ratios. It is a lot easier to get a 3.08 axle and rebuild it.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:33 pm

Fred Kiehl wrote:

BTW, if you have a 2.56 rear, you must get a special spacer to change gear ratios. It is a lot easier to get a 3.08 axle and rebuild it.

The way I read it, he's changing the carrier too, not just putting the ring and pinion on. With his 2.93s, it's all good anyway.


Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:09 pm

I read it again, and he is going to remove his and rebuild it.
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:15 pm

Fred,

Where can a 9C1 anto roll bar be found? I looked on Car-Part.com and for the fronts only two are listed, 28 mm and 30 mm diameter. The wagons come with a 30 mm one.

Chris
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:12 pm

I go to junk yards to get parts. I put a 9C1 unit on my OCC, and had to get larger bushings for it. I do not remember what the diameter is.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:08 pm

It's the same one. If you have a 30mm bar, you have a 9C1 bar.
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:33 pm

Fred,

I found new UCA frame knured bolts from amkproducts through National Parts Depot. They are for 67-88 Firebirds or under a different number for camaros with a different finish. Either $14 or $20 for four bolts, four nuts and 10 shims + $9 shipping. Will call amkproducts Monday for size and length. Called National Parts Depot in Canton, Mich. but they did not know dimensions. Called amkproducts they were closed.

Chris
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:47 am

Jason,

I'm back.

Is the Fr Wheel Bearing Nut 12 ft-lb torque the same as pre load for the wheel bearing nut? I can't find it in the FSM

From your post of Nov. 2016

Thanks,


Chris

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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:05 pm

The front wheel bearing is torqued to 12 ft. lb., while turning the rotor, to seat the bearings, then backed off, and finger tightened...move to the first cotter pin hole looser, but no more than 1 flat on the nut.

You could get a nut without the castle, and use a cotter pin retainer from an older car. You can usually put the cotter pin in a slot without turning the nut after making it finger tight.
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Skier



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:21 am

Fred,

I removed the castles from two nuts and bought cotter pin retainers from Dorman. I didn't know about torqueing to 12 ft lbs then backing off. I just turned rotors and nut until tight then backed off the nut to the first hole that the cotter retainer would let the cotter through.

Thanks
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Rev Bob



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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:38 am

The slight backing off of the nut is needed to give the minute amount of play for pushing the brake pads back a tiny bit. If the spindle nut is tightened even finger tight, the discs will drag.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: New Moog front Control arms   Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:21 pm

The bearings need some clearance, although minute. If the bearings are too tight, they will overheat, and burn up. If too loose, they will allow the rotor to wobble, and will wear out quickly. You must tighten the nut finger tight to get the proper clearance. Theoretically the bearing is perfectly adjusted by tightening it finger tight. The nut should not be backed off any more than is absolutely necessary. If the cotter pin fits without backing the finger tight nut off use that hole. The brake rotor should not wobble at all.
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