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 Preparing for front end rebuild

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Haze5736



Posts : 98
Join date : 2016-08-12
Age : 44
Location : East Syracuse, NY

PostSubject: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:30 am

I've got my list put together for the front end rebuild and have a couple of questions before I place my order.

At about 114k miles on the car, does it make sense to rebuild the entire front end or just replace parts as they wear out? I'm not familiar with what the parts were like when new, but I notice most of the parts do have grease fittings. Does that mean they have probably been replaced at least once or did some of the parts come with grease fittings from the factory? However, I do notice the rubber boots on some parts are cracked and leaking grease so I will replace them regardless.

Regarding the stabilizer bar bushings, how do I know what diameter I need without measuring? My wagon has the tow package and the choices are 1", 1-1/8" and 1-1/4".

I'm shopping on Rockauto and I don't see an application specific steering damper. They have a universal Monroe part# SC2920. Does anyone know if this will work?

I notice that rockauto has a front end kit by Mevotech (KIT78). The cost is $332.79. The cost of the individual components (Moog/Moog problem solver) minus the actual control arms is $258.16. So, for only an additional $80 I would get the 4 control arms. I've used some Mevotech bushings on my 94 Sedan Deville. They've only been on for less than 1 year so can't speak to the quality/longevity. Going for the Mevotech pre-loaded kit is very enticing. I do have a 12 ton hydraulic press so pressing bushings in/out should not be too much of a problem. So, looking for opinions on this one.

Below is my shopping list compiled from a couple of posts. If I should go ahead and do the entire rebuild, am I missing anything? I saw mention of replacing the steering shaft rag joint. I could not find one on rockauto. At 114k miles is it important?

Thanks.

control arm shaft kit (2)
control arm bushing upper (2)
control arm bushing lower (2)
ball joint upper (2)
ball joint lower (2)
coil spring insulator (2)
stabilizer bar end link (2)
tie rod end outer (2)
tie rod end inner (2)
tie rod sleeve/adjuster (2)
center link with damper provision (1)
center link damper (1)
idler arm (1)
stabilizer bar bushing (1 pack of 2)
front shocks (2)
motor mount (2)
transmission mount (1)

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Andebe

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Location : Richmond,Indiana

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:45 am

I prefer the kits...Have used PST several times. Great time to upgrade the sway bars. Idea
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Fred Kiehl

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Location : Largo, FL 33774

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:22 pm

The transmission mount will probably be the wrong one. The replacement parts are too tall.

I would at least get the loaded upper arms. The shaft bushings are a PITA to change, unless you have a tool with a slot to go around the shaft. The outside end of the arm is the only place that the bushing is pressed in. The inner sheet metal only supports the bushing sleeve.

You should be able to get a caliper on the anti roll bar to measure it with the car on the ground. Worse case scenario is that you have to remove the wheel.
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Eds rmw



Posts : 59
Join date : 2016-06-29
Location : Piedmont sc

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:11 pm

I see no benefit in you rebuilding the front suspension with only 114k miles. Are you having problems with it ?
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rauldelp

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Age : 34
Location : Hollywood, Florida, USA

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:24 pm

I just did the upper and lower bushes on mine, and at 104K miles the bushings were shot. No idea what kinda rally driving they did with this car!

I got the Moog pre pressed arms. Made the swaps go so fast!
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94Woody



Posts : 1423
Join date : 2008-12-02
Age : 42
Location : Ocala,FL

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 7:49 pm

All the steering components on these wagons left the factory with grease fittings in them. Tie rods, ball joints, etc.

Before blindly replacing everything I would thoroughly check out the front end to find any problems that may exist. Worn bushings will be sloppy and the Ball Joints have wear indicators on them. Sloppy steering components can cause abnormal tire wear. One item that normally fails quickly is the Idler Arm.

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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:07 pm

Here is a good way to determine the condition of your bushings; if you are backing from a parking space with the steering turned acutely, and the steering wheel/car jerks, the bushings are more than likely shot. I replaced the bushings on my car, and the jerking stopped.
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Haze5736



Posts : 98
Join date : 2016-08-12
Age : 44
Location : East Syracuse, NY

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Mar 05, 2017 7:54 am

Eds rmw wrote:
I see no benefit in you rebuilding the front suspension with only 114k miles. Are you having problems with it ?

I'm not sure yet. I have not had a chance to drive it regularly, waiting for the end of the salt season. Given the general neglect that is apparent with the rest of the car I figured I would just go in and get it all done and not have to think about it for at least the next couple of years. I'm pretty sure the lower ball joint rubber boots were shot and leaking grease. There was at least one other leaker that I remember. I guess when it gets warmer I'll give it a good once over but I'm not that skilled in diagnosis. I do have a large flat bar that I can use to try and move things around to see if there is play.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Mar 05, 2017 8:27 am

My 92 OCC's front suspension bushings were shot after 100K. There is no way to do maintenance on the bushings, so when they wear out, they are worn out, and you replace them. I put it off until 120K, but it cost me a lot of tire wear on the front tires.

I put urethane bushings in my 91, and they are really nice. They are no more difficult to install than the rubber ones. They are a little less compliant, but I do not notice any difference in ride quality.
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jasonlachapelle

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Location : CFB Bagotville, QC.

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:41 am

As mentioned in another post, I like the proforged parts, available on summit and amazon.

I have removed the steering damper from my cars, but that is personal preference. You can use the cheaper centrelink as well when you remove the damper.

Like Fred, I'm also of the opinion that it's far more convenient to just buy the entire upper control arm than to try to replace the bushings, especially given the low price of the upper arms.

Make sure you get the updated (blue) coil spring insulators.

If ever you had given thought to getting different coil springs, I'd say now would be the time to change them.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Tue Mar 07, 2017 9:35 am

Rock Auto has them. Look up any B-body, and they will be in the suspension section.
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94Woody



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Age : 42
Location : Ocala,FL

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:24 am

Several good choices on RA and man are they cheaper than I thought. At nearly 200k my suspension needs a going through. It does the jerking that Fred mentioned.

Loaded arms save a ton of work, even the bottom bushings can be a pain.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:31 pm

The loaded arms are as cheap as buying the parts and using your old arms over again, and you do not have to deal with the upper arm shaft when replacing the upper bushings.
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Haze5736



Posts : 98
Join date : 2016-08-12
Age : 44
Location : East Syracuse, NY

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:54 am

I'm finally getting around to ordering my parts and the front left upper control arm, moog CK620158, seems to not be available anywhere. I didn't figure that out until after I placed my Rockauto order for the other three. I've been calling around locally as well with no luck. Not sure what to do. Could I use the lower quality RK part for just the left upper?
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:00 am

You should be able to get the Moog ball joint and bushings for your original arm. The only issue you will have is installing the bushings. You need a special tool to get around the shaft when removing and installing the bushings. The inner edge of the old bushings may be flared to lock them into place. Flaring the new ones is not necessary.
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Haze5736



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Age : 44
Location : East Syracuse, NY

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:10 am

I called Moog and part# CK620158 is obsolete.

Do you know what the special tool is so I can get one before getting started if I go this route?

Would there be any harm in mixing the one Upper arm from the RK line with the other 3 from the CK line? I did the bushings on my 94 DeVille and it was a PITA. I was hoping to avoid all the drama this time around with the pre-loaded arms.
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Haze5736



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Join date : 2016-08-12
Age : 44
Location : East Syracuse, NY

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:28 am

atlantadan wrote:
Haze5736 wrote:
I called Moog and part# CK620158 is obsolete.
Moog shows them on their own website - available for purchase immediately.

http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-ck620158

I didn't know Moog sold direct. When I clicked on where to buy it only listed local Advance Auto stores. I'll have to check it out.
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Haze5736



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Join date : 2016-08-12
Age : 44
Location : East Syracuse, NY

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:32 am

I went to the website and started a live chat to be sure. Here's the response, "we only had one and it's been promised"
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Haze5736



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Age : 44
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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:41 am

Been there.

If you look at the description it is most likely being filled with the RK line. Seems a little fishy to me. They use REF# CK620158 CK620159 in the description, then use mfg. part numbers 12524204 & 12524201 and then the includes part is different altogether.

This Listing is for (2) Upper Control Arms With Bushing & Ball Joints
INCLUDES
1x Part# K620158 CL12524204 D/S Upper Control Arm With Bushings & Ball Joint
1x Part# K620159 CL12524201 P/S Upper Control Arm With Bushings & Ball Joint

It looks like I'm either pressing them in myself on the one arm or mixing in an RK line.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:12 pm

The tool is the one with the split receivers, and clamp. Some of the parts stores have them to loan out. I bought a regular one from Harbor Freight, and cut the parts with an angle grinder and cutoff wheel, so that I could use it. After cutting it, I can still use it on the other bushings. I also found that the flange tends to bend when inserting the bushing, so I used a hammer to seat it on the bushing while in the clamp. It came out straight by doing that, so I do not have bushing alignment issues for the shaft. I did the same thing on all of the other flanges for the same reason.
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94Woody



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Age : 42
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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:15 pm

Ordered everything to redo my wagon. RA only had two of the good Moog Arms. Online search showed the same results from everywhere. Most said the numbers were discontinued. Research on Mevotech parts was a unanimous “stay far away from that garbage”.

So, I just ordered all the Moog pieces and will use my arms again. Have all the tools to rebuild them anyways.

Excited to have a smooth ride and ditch the off-road stance the car currently has.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:42 pm

The rears may be just as bad as the fronts. They are more difficult to do, especially the upper bushing on the upper arms.

Too bad Moog stopped making the loaded arms.

When you take the arms out of the lower mounts, spread the mounts a little before trying to reassemble them. Clamping the lowers causes the mounts to compress on the inner tube, and the teeth on the ends bite into the mounts to keep them from moving. Same deal for the rears.
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jasonlachapelle

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Location : CFB Bagotville, QC.

PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:30 pm

94Woody wrote:
Ordered everything to redo my wagon. RA only had two of the good Moog Arms. Online search showed the same results from everywhere. Most said the numbers were discontinued. Research on Mevotech parts was a unanimous “stay far away from that garbage”.

So, I just ordered all the Moog pieces and will use my arms again. Have all the tools to rebuild them anyways.

Excited to have a smooth ride and ditch the off-road stance the car currently has.

the CK arm seemed available on amazon just now.


If you decide to reuse your upper arms, for Moog bushings:
- front upper use K6409 (1 kit per car)
- front lower use K6109 (2 kits per car) - there used to be an improved bushing kit K6419, which was discontinued several years ago, but you may still find some if you look at Amazon or e-Bay auto parts listings. If you were to find a K6419 kit, you only need one kit per car. A kit that old may have deteriorated.
- rear lower use K6116 (2 kits per car)

No shafts come with the UCA bushing kit (K6409) above. All the hardware (like cup washers, lock nuts, etc.) is included with the K6210 offset shaft kit, but is not available separately, AFAIK.
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94Woody



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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:29 pm

I ordered the K6109 bushings. Also ordered the K6210 since it came with all hardware. At 202k everything is getting changed. One upper bushing is blown out and the car is embarrassing from all the squeaking.

I spent an hour on Amazon last night. Could find three CK arms ready to ship and only one of one number was left. The last arm said it would ship in 2 to 3 months. Hopped back on Google and the same number had the same story on every website. At that point I said screw it, I have tools and do suspension on dump trucks, garbage trucks, etc. A couple pieces of stamped steel will be cake Smile

That said, for less than the price of the generic loaded arms/tie rods/center and some front springs I was able to get everything I needed, lol.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:40 am

Shipping in two or three months means that they are not available, and the seller wants to use your money for that time period without paying you interest.
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94Woody



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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:57 am

Exactly. I’m not playing that game and the car has a month and a half to be ready.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:30 am

Wagonfest is thirty-three days away.
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94Woody



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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:49 am

jasonlachapelle wrote:
As mentioned in another post, I like the proforged parts, available on summit and amazon..

Lots of their stuff is now available on Rockauto now. Good pricing. I'm just so used to Moog. The Problem Solver Idler Arm is a godsend.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:52 am

94Woody wrote:
. Also ordered the K6210 since it came with all hardware.
great. You don't need to use the actual offset shaft from the kit though unless you weren't able to align the car without it.

For other folks interested in loaded control arms, you could always contact Bill Harper (Navy Lifer on ISSF and here, but I don't think he frequents this board) about the control arms. He used to sell rebuilt arms, not sure if he still does. Since you have the tools and are in FLA, it's probably not a big deal to rebuild them yourself.

CK620158 is 1 available on amazon.com (third party Northern auto parts whom I guess you could call the 1-800 to confirm whether or not it's the actual CK part , arrives between feb 27 and and march 6) and amazon.ca (arrives this week).
CK620159 is available from amazon.com (one of them is used, which is repackaged, from amazon warehouse for 29$) and one in stock with 2 day prime shipping. I've always had good luck with the used amazon products. Always been new stuff that was either returned or had a cosmetic blemish on the packaging. That being said maybe stock is different cause I have a Canadian address set as my default.
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94Woody



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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:54 pm

That is only 2 out of 4 though. Also need CK620168 and 169. I think 169 is the currently obsolete number. Folks at ISSF said that part does come and go so I doubt it is actually gone forever.

I was just looking for the convenience of loaded arms more than anything. I have no driveway but an unlevel mix of rock/sand/leaves and bugs to work in. Have to pull parts, take them to work, replace parts during lunch breaks, bring them back home, install them. Winter is over and the central Florida heat is rapidly returning.

If this was a northern car with a rotted and frozen suspension it would be getting whatever was available. This location though means everything will come loose with hand tools Smile
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Preparing for front end rebuild   Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:15 pm

94Woody wrote:
This location though means everything will come loose with hand tools Smile

Lucky.
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