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 "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump

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dmg4

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PostSubject: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:15 am

I just picked up a 1996 Buick Roadmaster wagon in which the former owner had installed an electric water pump and a single electric fan. The water pump is controlled by a toggle switch under the dash (on/off), as is the single electric fan (on/off).

On the ride back from Cape May NJ to Geneva NY (345 miles) on a warm day, I simply left both on all the time. Whether it was 80 mph on the interstate, or in stop and go traffic, the temperature stayed at 150 to 165F the entire time.

Given that eventually someone else will borrow and drive this car, and to eliminate the chance that something gets left "off", and since it doesn't seem to affect engine temperature when left "on", I planned to remove the switches and just leave everything set to "on".

Yep, I know this is not a perfect solution. Is there a serious downside? This is a spare car that will not see a lot of use. Someday I may put everything right, but for now I'm looking for something that would work for 5000 miles or so until I have more time and money.

If anyone wants to lecture me on how easy this would be to rewire back to factory specs, install a second fan, and reprogram the PCM, I'll park the car under a tree at Wagonfest this summer with a few fifties in the ashtray, and ply you with cold beer until it's done.
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lakeffect
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:02 am

A mechanical pump is on at all times when the engine is running, so why not an electric one?

Get a diagram of the "pin outs" for the ECM. You may have the relays still in the car. If so it makes it easy. Junk yards should have the dual fans.

Check Wilbert's Auto parts up in Webster NY. I work a few miles from there You buy, i'll fly.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:10 am

The car was non-towpack from birth, so I have the secondary fan in a box.  I'm not sure why the previous owner removed it.  From the looks of the engine compartment, there is some more innovative wiring under there.  Others have reported here that the primary fan alone is more than sufficient even under hot conditions in the southern US.

Even with 2.56 gears, this car has some serious grunt.  It's noticeably quicker than my Caprice... itself no slug off the line.  The previous owner did mention that the PCM had been reprogrammed, and there is a cold-air intake.  I had read that the mechanical fan ate about 15 HP when operating.  I didn't think that would account for such a difference in acceleration, but...

Perhaps someone installed a set of those quad-electrode balonium spark plugs. Those will double horsepower, increase gas mileage, and extend the life of your Woody.

Beer and/or money is available to anyone withing driving distance who wants to tackle the fan wiring and see it through to completion, all parts purchased by me.  If this were a firearm, I could fix it in the dark.  However, electronics just baffle me.
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Rev Bob



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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:11 am

""the temperature stayed at 150 to 165F the entire time.""

The engine was on the (non factory) thermostat the entire time. You could increase fuel efficiency, lower emissions, and lengthen oil life by putting the higher temp stock stat back in. It makes no sense to burn fuel, and then use some of that energy to circulate enough coolant to release more of that energy back to the atmosphere than is needed. Modern engines are designed to run at higher temps than they were previously.

Whose electric pump is fitted?
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:15 am

What is the stock thermostat spec, and what is the normal operating temperature range? I don't know who manufactured the pump, and I'm in RI at the moment and the car is in NY. Picture of the pump below. Anyone recognize it?

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TheRoadmasterKing

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:53 pm

Looks very similar to the one made by Jegs:
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Rev Bob



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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:58 pm

The stock LT1 stat is set for 195 F. A properly operating cooling system will keep within 30 F of that setting. Temps above 240 F indicate a problem.

Late engines are truly designed for the higher temps. From the recirculation on the fuel rail to the material used for gaskets.



For the optimum in thermal management, consider this:

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This system eliminates the thermostat completely. It circulates only the amount of coolant to keep your engine at optimum temp, with no parasitic loss.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:33 pm

Thermostats in LT1 engines seems to be a favorite for contentious discussions on the various forums from what I can read.  Nearly all threads and many suppliers (Rock Auto and Summit Racing, for example) list the 180 degree thermostat as OEM, but several users seem to swear by the 160 degree units.  Others, citing improved performance are true believers in the 195 degree thermostat.  If the thermostat is operating properly when it maintains +/- 30F, then there would seem to be at least some flexibility in the choice between a 180 and 195.  I'll likely swap out the present thermostat for a new 180 and see how it runs.  They are not expensive.

The offer of money and beer for a fan fix is still on the table folks.
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Rev Bob



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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:30 pm

The stats in the reverse flow engines operate a little differently. The 180 F is indeed the correct fitment for OEM LT1.

I should have stated the temp gage should read 195 F normally.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:46 pm

questions,.

how many fifties,?
How much beer,..?
what kind of fire arms,..


The thermostat discussion,.. i personally run 195's,. keeps the water in the rad longer./ but i also program my fans on a little sooner,.

anything over 30 mph or so the fan is impeding air flow,.

electric pump on with the key,. it should have a light programmed to come when the pump fails,.

sounds as if po was trying to be a boy racer, by having the ability to cool car down with motor off,.

Yes tuning does wake these cars up,. along with a gear ratio change,.
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bigredwagon

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:59 am

Yeah, I think your idea to have them both switched to on will be fine.   It will give you time to learn your previou owner (important)  an allow the car to have recirculation and cooling if needed.
Due to an electrical glitch only my mechanical fan was functional for many miles including heavy vacation travel...summer, traffic, whatnot.  Temp was slightly higher than normal at times but never excessive.  
I might check the thermostat to know what and if is even in there given the changes but I wouldn't necessary freak out with the pump and fan left on.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:35 am

Quote :
questions,.

how many fifties,?
How much beer,..?
what kind of fire arms,..

Answers:

1. I should think that one per hour would do it.
2. Enough to get you locked up.
3. WWI and WWII military; Allied, Axis, Neutral, and Occupied countries.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:34 am

dmg4 wrote:

Answer:
3.  WWI and WWII military; Allied, Axis, Neutral, and Occupied countries.

oh,. i need someone to restore my old stainless husqvarna 12ga,.

fan wiring is easy,. ecm grounds the relay at set temp,. fan comes on,.

when u change T stat,.
you need to look at the tune, and see if the fan on/off temps have been modified,.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:53 am

PM sent re Husqvarna 12 ga. Getting it across the border would be the only challenge.
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Swaggerwagon



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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:25 pm

Dmg4: hey I had a quick yes or no question.

Longroof forum: rolls out podium.....

Hey I think u have the right idea. I'd unbolt those switches from the dash, and zip-tie them up under the dash (in the on position). Then in the future when you have time, you can make a more 'professional' repair. As a fellow longroofer with very little free time, that's what I would do if it was my car.

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lakeffect
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:32 pm

Just make sure that they were not wired into an always hot circuit. Otherwise, even though you have tured off the engine, the fans keep going until they kill the battery
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TheRoadmasterKing

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:44 pm

lakeffect wrote:
Just make sure that they were not wired into an always hot circuit. Otherwise, even though you have tured off the engine, the fans keep going until they kill the battery
Couldn't he use a relay/module to kill the power after the engine is turned off?
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lakeffect
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:55 pm

Relays are used. But the relay still needs to receive the signal from a" key on" source. not an always hot source as previously stated..
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:29 am

Quote :
electric pump on with the key,. it should have a light programmed to come when the pump fails,.

My eyes are generally glued to the road while I'm driving, so I'd likely notice the rusty brown water and clouds of steam coming from under the hood before I noticed a light tucked into the dash.  A loud buzzer, dive alarm, or a klaxton horn would be a much better solution for me. I'm assuming that out there somewhere is a relay that will, upon interruption of power by a cooked pump, send power to an alarm. What's correct term for such an item, and where can I get one?

The electric pumps are relatively inexpensive and comparatively quick and easy to swap out on the road, so I might pick up a spare and keep it in the car for trips.
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81X11

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:02 pm

I have that Innovative Wiring setup. I converted my '96 Tow-Pack car to the dual-fan setup. As long as the a/c is on, it never goes much about 200, but with the a/c off, in traffic the cooling fan does not kick on until the gauge is nearly in the red. I hate that, but so far have not found anyone local that can trip the fans to come on earlier. I kinda liked never having to worry about it with the tow-pack setup, but it is nice to see the front of the motor.

The electric water pump is interesting. I bet that does give you a little more power not having to run that, but I do worry a bit about the electric motor dying. Would make for zero-fun if that thing stopped pumping, espacially on the road somewhere.
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Swaggerwagon



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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:23 pm

LakeEffect brings up a good point about key-on vs constant power. But if it was wired to constant 12v i think you would've found your car with a dead battery the day after you bought it.
Slightly off topic, but I've read the threads regarding the EWP alarms. Some LT1 guys need to climb out of your panic bunkers, and relax a bit. The temp light and the dash chime do function as designed. I know because my heater core restrictor broke last year. I had plenty of time to get off the freeway. No damage.
Besides, if the impeller (or shaft) breaks, but the EWP motor is still turning, your homemade warning light wouldn't turn on anyway. Not tryin to be a jerk here. If you're the type that takes off your shoes, and re-ties the laces before you put them on the stairs....then proceed with your EWP/air raid/tornado warning network system. But let's not scare the OP with highly unlikely scenarios that don't really come up.
All in good fun,
Your friend mike
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lakeffect
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:25 pm

dmg4 wrote:
I just picked up a 1996 Buick Roadmaster wagon in which the former owner had installed an electric water pump and a single electric fan.  The water pump is controlled by a toggle switch under the dash (on/off), as is the single electric fan (on/off).
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Swaggerwagon



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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:18 pm

My previous post should have read "if the switches were wired to constant power, and the switches were inadvertently left in the 'on' position when the car was shut off, then the battery would have dead the next day"
My apologies
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:20 pm

My bad.  Both switches that control the water pump and fan receive power only when the key is in the "on" position.

Interestingly, the battery WAS dead this morning, and I thought for a minute that the fan and pump switches might be wired for constant power.  However, the culprit was that I turned the knob on the headlight switch, and inadvertently switches on all the interior lights.  It was a bright sunny day when I walked away for the Easter weekend on Friday.  Battery was dead as a faaaht when I tried to start it this morning.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:47 am

Spoke to the previous owner yesterday.  PCM fan settings were not altered, 180 degree thermostat in place, and all original wiring is in place, just bypassed with the manual on/off switch under the dash, PCM retuned by Solomon for power.  So, all I need to do is find those wires and reconnect to run the fan off the PCM.

Any help gratefully accepted.  The underhood wiring is, as I said, innovative and not something you'll find in a FSM.  There are separate ignition coils for each sparkplug, and something called a Bailey Box that allows this to work with the Optispark, and wires, wires everywhere from various other modifications.
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TheRoadmasterKing

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:25 am

dmg4 wrote:
Spoke to the previous owner yesterday.  PCM fan settings were not altered, 180 degree thermostat in place, and all original wiring is in place, just bypassed with the manual on/off switch under the dash, PCM retuned by Solomon for power.  So, all I need to do is find those wires and reconnect to run the fan off the PCM.

Any help gratefully accepted.  The underhood wiring is, as I said, innovative and not something you'll find in a FSM.  There are separate ignition coils for each sparkplug, and something called a Bailey Box that allows this to work with the Optispark, and wires, wires everywhere from various other modifications.
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Interesting...
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lakeffect
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:26 am

I'd use the ECM pinouts to start from. The bottom line is that the signal originates from the ECM via a pin out and grounds through the signal side of the relay. So one way or another, You need a wire from the pin out to the relay. ( two pinouts for two fans) The other portion of the relay is simple Battery to relay to fan to ground. I'd work backwards from the fan,

I'd anticipate the "innovative" harness already has a wire to that pin out(s). Who knows where it goes after that physically, if it got tucked away somewhere, or cut off, but it needs to go to the relay. I've seen "pins" at NAPA on a rack.

Regardless if it's a one fan (two wire) or two fan (three wire) plug , one of those wires, usually black will be your ground. The other wire(s) will go back to their respective relays. The other side of the relay goes back to the battery
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YachtDriver

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:02 pm


I Purchased the Primary Fan Innovative kit to convert my daily Roadmaster as it is a towpack car and I got sick of the roaring mechanical fan.

As Nick said it is a pretty simple circuit. PCM grounds and fan turns on.

All of the Manuals are available online for the Innovative wiring harnesses.
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Check out the page and he has the instructions published with pictures. It shows how it's a bypass and should still support factory operation.. So I don't know what may have been done to your new to you car.
dual fan run instructions

If you look at the Fan Dual Run kit you can see how it can be bypassed from the stock configuration.
DUAL FAN RUN RELAY

I have found everything I have purchased from the Innovative Wiring Site to be well made. The manufacturer does stand behind his stuff so you could reach out to him.

As far as the Bailey Box / LTCC Goes I feel it's a good product. I have one Installed in the SSWAGN as I went through some OPTI related issues and decided I wanted to do away with it. Once installed I have had no issues with Ignition on this car.  You may have seen it at the last Wagonfest.

As the only electric water pump I have experience with is the factory one used on a BMW. It is controlled by the motor management system and it let's you know when it's not working. I would just set the Pump to run with ignition on and having a FAIL light in case it fails.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:25 am

Grrr... the fan is now dead.  It does not run at all, and I have not even started the rewiring process yet.  Fuse is good.  Light comes on at the dash switch, so that circuit is complete and powered.  Looks like I might be needing that spare fan in the back seat after all.  I'll cut into the wire splicing to test the fan motor all the same.

Dawn come late sometimes in my part of the world.  I just realized that the name of the company that produces wiring harnesses for this repair is Innovative Wiring LLC. There is no connection between this company and the innovation demonstrated in wiring by the previous owner of my new Roadmaster.  Just wanted to clear that up before there's a knock at my door and papers are served.

OK, back to the problem.  I assume the relay mentioned in Lakeffect's post above is in the underhood box beside the 40A fuse for the primary fan, correct?  Even I can find the battery and a black wire on the fan motor.   So far, so good.  Now comes the fun.  Which pin on the ECM?
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lakeffect
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:31 am

Test the fan i self first. At the fan harness connection, simply run heavy jumper wires from the battery + to the fan and to either a handy ground or battery -. It will determine if the fan is working.

It either it runs or is dead.

Dave
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:24 pm

Opened a tape splice on the wires about 10" from the fan, jumped to battery, and it ran just fine.

Does anyone out there know what pin number or which wire coming from the ECM grounds the primary fan to turn it on?
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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Red 11
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: "Innovative" wiring of electric fan and electric water pump   Today at 12:09 am

Well, I spent the day removing all of the accessory gauges, blinkenlights, and switches in the "new" Roadmaster, taping off or otherwise capping dead wiring, copper oil pressure lines, Hillbilly wiring, and vacuum tubing. I installed the secondary cooling fan, and ordered a new harness from Innovative Wiring LLC. The sending unit at the rear of the engine is dripping oil onto the catalytic converter, so the car looks like a crop duster once that gets hot. Putz, putz, putz. It will all be fixed soon enough.
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