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 Easy handling recipe?

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Underpowered



Posts : 62
Join date : 2019-02-11
Age : 32
Location : Burlington, KY

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PostSubject: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeSat Aug 24, 2019 6:14 pm

so, The "GO" portion of the build it done. Now, need to so some R&R to the car and might as well upgrade some of the parts while i am doing so.

so, what are some easy handling upgrades? Picked up an SS Camaro Front sway bar for the front, need to find one for the rear still. the big crown vic bar seems to be hard to come by these days.

rear LCA's need new bushings at the least, so thinking of either getting boxed ones, or buying new stock ones and simply boxing them myself. Not sure if i want poly bushings or keep the comfort of the rubber stockers.

Any other cheap/easy upgrades to make it handle a bit better.

what about springs? want to keep some load carrying capacity, but don't want to sit any higher. Stock-ish, maybe slightly lower is ideal. I like the current stance with well worn stock springs.

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Fred Kiehl

Fred Kiehl

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Location : Largo, FL 33774

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeSat Aug 24, 2019 8:54 pm

You should put your location in your signature. People with parts can get an idea of what shipping will cost you. You should also put the type of wagon you have in your signature.

You should put your desired parts in the parts wanted section, that is where people with parts to sell will look to fulfill your wants.
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Underpowered



Posts : 62
Join date : 2019-02-11
Age : 32
Location : Burlington, KY

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeSat Aug 24, 2019 9:01 pm

Fred Kiehl wrote:
You should put your location in your signature. People with parts can get an idea of what shipping will cost you. You should also put the type of wagon you have in your signature.

You should put your desired parts in the parts wanted section, that is where people with parts to sell will look to fulfill your wants.

Not looking for the parts to buy. Looking to see what others have used to achieve better handling, ride height, and such. willing to buy new.

Looking for advice, not parts currently
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sherlock9c1



Posts : 2129
Join date : 2009-05-28
Location : Huntsville, AL

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 8:02 am

You still should put your location in your signature.

Yes, stiffer springs would help. What F codes are in your option codes list inside the tailgate (to the right)?
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Underpowered



Posts : 62
Join date : 2019-02-11
Age : 32
Location : Burlington, KY

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 8:50 am

sherlock9c1 wrote:
You still should put your location in your signature.

Yes, stiffer springs would help. What F codes are in your option codes list inside the tailgate (to the right)?

RPO code sticker is MIA. Usually one of the first things i look up on any new-to-me car to see how it was optioned out. Sticker is gone on the wagon however.

Location added below avatar. Wagon is a 1978 box body, 6.0 LS/T56/4.10.
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jayoldschool

jayoldschool

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Join date : 2009-06-14

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 3:47 pm

Moog complete front end. Tie rods, center link, idler, ball joints, etc. Fresh bushings in the front control arms (or buy loaded arms. Bilsteins. Bigger front bar (SS/9C1 is fine). Poly sway bar end links. Some sort of rear bar. Better lower rear control arms with good bushings. Stock upper rears with fresh stock bushings. Moog springs, higher rate than stock, front and rear. You can get them in stock height, or a couple of lowered heights.
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RedandBlack

RedandBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 5:14 pm

Moog or ProForged front end definitely the way to go.

Southside Machine sells boxed arms for a reasonable price, but I know you have fab skills so that's probably not necessary.

CV rear bar is the way to go unless you spend the money for the Hotchkis bar (I have it and like it).

Dick Miller rear frame braces would be a good idea too (they run from UCA to the frame to stiffen).

I have mine low, because I like it that way, but check out the Moog spring chart. I settled on the CC501 for a good balance of lowered stance and carrying capability.

Spring chart here:

https://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/universal_coil_springs.asp

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Underpowered



Posts : 62
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Age : 32
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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 7:23 pm

jayoldschool wrote:
Moog complete front end.  Tie rods, center link, idler, ball joints, etc.  Fresh bushings in the front control arms (or buy loaded arms.  Bilsteins.  Bigger front bar (SS/9C1 is fine).  Poly sway bar end links.  Some sort of rear bar.  Better lower rear control arms with good bushings.  Stock upper rears with fresh stock bushings.  Moog springs, higher rate than stock, front and rear.  You can get them in stock height, or a couple of lowered heights.  

some of the front end is fresh. PO said he had a replace a few items and steering is tight. No idea on brands he used, but plan on going through it all this winter when i go for version 2.0 of the car.

Have a front bar from an SS camaro (same donor as the trans.) Undecided on what rear bar to use. might just go JY hunting soon.

RedandBlack wrote:
Moog or ProForged front end definitely the way to go.

Southside Machine sells boxed arms for a reasonable price, but I know you have fab skills so that's probably not necessary.

CV rear bar is the way to go unless you spend the money for the Hotchkis bar (I have it and like it).

Dick Miller rear frame braces would be a good idea too (they run from UCA to the frame to stiffen).

I have mine low, because I like it that way, but check out the Moog spring chart. I settled on the CC501 for a good balance of lowered stance and carrying capability.

Spring chart here:

https://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/universal_coil_springs.asp


It appears Southside machine no longer list B-body parts on their site. I would make my own, but the wagon is currently my DD and i need rear LCA's immediately as i have devoloped a clunk in the rear end and believe them to be the root cause.

CV bar is hard to find lately it seems.

Gonna add a rear hitch, Fabbed of course due to no one making a 2" reciever for them any longer. The one guy that does, has failed to respond to any of my contact attempts both on this forum and though his website. So gonna make my own which i understand to stiffen up the rear end a bit, but will look into the frame braces as well.

Thanks for the Spring chart link. Will paruse it and find something that i hope will work. Or just buy the "cargo" coils and lose a coil or two to get my height.


thanks for the replies gentlemen, Definitely gives me a few things to look into for this winters upgrades.

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RedandBlack

RedandBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 7:28 pm

https://southsidemachineperformance.com/shop?olsPage=t%2F1978-1996-gm-b-body

These guys. The owner of the place uses B-bodies for race chassis. When I bought my arms from him, we talked on the phone for about an hour or so.

I bought the CC501 cargos. Take a look at them vs the standard CC623 everyone recommends. You won't have to cut anything.
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Underpowered



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeMon Aug 26, 2019 7:41 pm

RedandBlack wrote:
https://southsidemachineperformance.com/shop?olsPage=t%2F1978-1996-gm-b-body

These guys. The owner of the place uses B-bodies for race chassis. When I bought my arms from him, we talked on the phone for about an hour or so.

I bought the CC501 cargos. Take a look at them vs the standard CC623 everyone recommends. You won't have to cut anything.

definitely not he same southside machine page google brought me to. Might order the rear LCA's from him.

I had read the cc623 sits a bit higher than stock when unloaded. i think the cc501 might be a bit too low for me, being 3" shorter and a lower spring rate. Going through the list and comparing other options currently.

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dmg4

dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 6:36 am

Best bang for the buck IMHO would be to add a rear sway bar and new coilover shocks for the rear and then allow the wallet to rest if funds are limited. If you use the Southside machine LCAs, adding a swaybar is a snap. If you go with the Hotchkiss bar, the LCAs are predrilled to fit. Time is money.

I'm skeptical that ride quality in these cars would be noticeably harsher if switching to poly bushings in the rear LCAs alone. I've added this to 2 of my wagons. I don't notice a change in ride quality, but cornering is vastly improved.
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Underpowered



Posts : 62
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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 6:47 am

Bought stock LCA's last night as i need them now. Will most likely build my own set this winter for it with poly bushings all around.

got some springs picked out as well. Hopefully come spring time it can hang a corner much better than it does now.
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RedandBlack

RedandBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 8:56 am

I haven't seen a good set of coilovers that were cost effective... unless something else has come on the market anyway.


If I were you, Underpowered, I'd box the stock arms before you put 'em in and send it. Not like it would be hard for you to do with your skills.
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dmg4

dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 9:13 am

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RedandBlack

RedandBlack

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 9:17 am

Ahhh so more of a load-leveler. I was thinking performance adjustable coilover.

Interesting - haven't seen those around.
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Underpowered



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 9:43 am

RedandBlack wrote:
I haven't seen a good set of coilovers that were cost effective... unless something else has come on the market anyway.


If I were you, Underpowered, I'd box the stock arms before you put 'em in and send it. Not like it would be hard for you to do with your skills.

That i was planning on doing. simple enough to do with. Then maybe some poly bushing in them. Might be the most Cost-effective upgrade

dmg4 wrote:
I used these:  https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/monroe-load-adjusting-shock-absorber-58574/19710005-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=19710005-P&adtype=pla_with_promotion&product_channel=online&store_code=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpYCKpJCj5AIVg4CfCh0WEQWxEAQYASABEgIymPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

It actually has a well worn set of these on it currently. I have some monroe HD shocks to put on it for the time being. (rock auto had them for 3.25 each, so hard to pass on them for a temporary solution)

Had looked into actual coil overs. Never bought any for a car. Bought a few for off road trucks and it is honestly a bit simpler when buying a huge 16" travel shock with multi rate springs than it seems to be for a smaller 8" shock for a driver.
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Fix Until Broke



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 10:29 am

Speedtech has a nice rear (and front) suspension setup for the B bodies with various options to choose from. I like the http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=641/category_id=106/mode=prod/prd641.htm of the Speedtech rear control arms over the other designs I've seen.

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=106/mode=cat/cat106.htm

They sell Vi-King shocks/springs which seem to be a good value for what you get. Interestingly, Vi-King is just a couple blocks away from QA1 in a small town in Minnesota, so guessing someone decided to venture out on their own Smile.

QA1 also has kits available

https://www.qa1.net/suspension/handling-suspension-kits/gm-handling-kits/94-96-gm-bbody-handling-suspension-kits

If I remember right, your wagon is a generation older (late 70's/80's?), so not sure if this applies, but on the 91-96 B-Body Wagons, the Impala SS rear swaybars won't work since the lower control arms are a few inches farther out on the axle (and the axles are wider). The wagon frame is also wider so the sedan control arms fit fine, just the sedan swaybar that ends up being too narrow for the wagons.
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 10:42 am

All interesting advice. My suggestion, and it's nothing more than that, is based on having the stuff on two wagons that I drove about 75,000 miles. Lots of stuff looks nice in a catalog.
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Fix Until Broke



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 10:44 am

dmg4 wrote:
All interesting advice.  My suggestion, and it's nothing more than that, is based on having the stuff on two wagons that I drove about 75,000 miles.  Lots of stuff looks nice in a catalog.

It feels like there's more to this story...?
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Underpowered



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Aug 27, 2019 11:33 am

Fix Until Broke wrote:
Speedtech has a nice rear (and front) suspension setup for the B bodies with various options to choose from.  I like the http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=641/category_id=106/mode=prod/prd641.htm of the Speedtech rear control arms over the other designs I've seen.

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=results/category_id=106/mode=cat/cat106.htm

They sell Vi-King shocks/springs which seem to be a good value for what you get.  Interestingly, Vi-King is just a couple blocks away from QA1 in a small town in Minnesota, so guessing someone decided to venture out on their own Smile.

QA1 also has kits available

https://www.qa1.net/suspension/handling-suspension-kits/gm-handling-kits/94-96-gm-bbody-handling-suspension-kits

If I remember right, your wagon is a generation older (late 70's/80's?), so not sure if this applies, but on the 91-96 B-Body Wagons, the Impala SS rear swaybars won't work since the lower control arms are a few inches farther out on the axle (and the axles are wider).  The wagon frame is also wider so the sedan control arms fit fine, just the sedan swaybar that ends up being too narrow for the wagons.


Different body,  but same Chassis (same chassis from 77-96).  and can 100% confirm...i have a 96 roadmaster wagon rear end under my 78.  100% bolt in, other than metric lug studs vs the old SAE.  

I have seen the QA1 Kits.  They look good, and i was honeslty shocked they made a full kit for a car with very little intention of "performance" from the factory for the most part.  A bit Pricey IMO for them.  Hoping to get similar results with JY or DIY parts.  

Thanks for the helpful replies.  will look through the Speedtech stuff,  never looked at it.  Have heard of the Viking coil overs though.  popular in the drag crowd.

I had looked into King shocks.  as they may short 6" and 8" travel coilovers that i am familiar with.  Radflow, FOA, and Fox are the big players that i know of in the coilover world.


EDIT: after looking at the speedtech stuff, i am not a fan of that style link. the articulating link seems cool, but in reality it is another wear point on a suspension that won't see a ton of articulation anyway. If i needed that, i'd go Tube and Rod ends/Johnny Joints for the link bars. Seem gimmicky to me. Much like the revolver shackles of old.
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rauldelp

rauldelp

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeWed Aug 28, 2019 4:39 pm

Like dmg4 I went with the Southside Machine lowers in the rear, and bolted up the hotchkiss bar. Stock front bar, but I haven't noticed any real oversteer issues yet. Rear springs replaced with Moog CC623 springs (I think it's their cargo coil) that leveled the car nicely. New Moog upper and lowers in the front. KYB Gas-a-justs all around. Definitely sits on the tall side, but not too bad.

Handling is fantastic compared to the original setup, but it's still a damned heavy car to swing around.
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Underpowered



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Sep 03, 2019 6:58 am

rauldelp wrote:
Like dmg4 I went with the Southside Machine lowers in the rear, and bolted up the hotchkiss bar. Stock front bar, but I haven't noticed any real oversteer issues yet. Rear springs replaced with Moog CC623 springs (I think it's their cargo coil) that leveled the car nicely. New Moog upper and lowers in the front. KYB Gas-a-justs all around. Definitely sits on the tall side, but not too bad.

Handling is fantastic compared to the original setup, but it's still a damned heavy car to swing around.

pretty much what i am looking atou

CC801 rear springs, similar spring rate to the 623, but a little shorter. then new shocks and bushings. Installed a set of boxed stock LCA's on the rear for the time being on friday, they will most likely get new poly bushings the fall/winter.

not sure if i want to find a JY rear sway bar, or just buy the hotchkis bar.

Glad to hear it is a decent handling setup when done. Not looking to make a track car out of it, just way less boat like on the curvy country roads
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dmg4

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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Sep 03, 2019 7:11 am

Unless you only drive in really flat territory, take a few measurements of the present clearance of your exhaust and rear bumper before lowering. Get out a piece of graph paper and check the clearances as you lower the car at the rear axle on paper before proceeding. The effect is multiplied at the extreme rear entering or leaving a slope. The geometry of the overhang behind the rear axle of these cars does not make for a pleasant experience entering or exiting a steep driveway or side street. I've raised my wagons about 3/4" in the rear to lessen that fingernails-on-a-blackboard sensation of ass-dragging on upstate NY roads.
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Underpowered



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Sep 03, 2019 7:41 am

dmg4 wrote:
Unless you only drive in really flat territory, take a few measurements of the present clearance of your exhaust and rear bumper before lowering.  Get out a piece of graph paper and check the clearances as you lower the car at the rear axle on paper before proceeding.  The effect is multiplied at the extreme rear entering or leaving a slope.   The geometry of the overhang behind the rear axle of these cars does not make for a pleasant experience entering or exiting a steep driveway or side street.  I've raised my wagons about 3/4" in the rear to lessen that fingernails-on-a-blackboard sensation of ass-dragging on upstate NY roads.

there are a lot of unknowns. I can take all the measurements in the world, but without knowing how much my stock springs have sagged over the last 40 years, i can't be sure where exactly a new set of springs will put the car at. If it is anything last past experience has taught me, I'd bet some 1" lower springs will either keep the height it is now, or even it lift it a touch due to worn stock springs.

ideally, i like the car just where it is, maybe up to 1" lower but not much at all. I do know the popular cc623 springs will raise the car, and I do not want that.

Exhaust can be modified, it currently drags the turndowns at full bump anyway. Rear overhang i can see being an issue, as there is a TON of it. but even loaded down with all my camping gear and 2 extra people this weekend, the rear never got close to dragging that I am aware of on the back country roads of KY and IN. A lot closer to parking curbs however though.

Ample before, and after measurements will be taken, but I am confident i can resolve any issue that may arise.

I appreciate the input however, I definitely don't want to be the guy dragging over speed bumps and into parking lot every time i go anywhere with it.
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goldwolfnhn



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PostSubject: Re: Easy handling recipe?   Easy handling recipe? Icon_minitimeTue Sep 10, 2019 7:42 am

I little something I found out for anyone that wants to put a rear sway bar on without having to get new control arms, there was a GM part made specifically to be mounted inside the stock lower control arms for a sway bar to be bolted onto.

GM # 10191120

if you can find one or if you know someone who fabricates and could fabricate a custom bracket to fit in, as it's pretty much just a steel U channel that gets bolted into the underside of the control arm, essentially boxing half the control arm, that the sway bar is then bolted to.
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