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 Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive

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convert2diesel



Posts: 687
Join date: 2009-01-05
Age: 60
Location: Manotick, Ontario

PostSubject: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:32 pm

Well it looks like I get the nod for March.

To start off, maybe some background is in order. I have three basic requirements for my daily driver.

1. Due to my size (anyone who says we stop growing in our teens is lying. Growth just changes direction) and personal preference, I love big American cars.

2. My business dictates that I log 20 - 30 thousand miles a year, mostly on the highway.

3. My wife and I are avid campers and travel extensively up and down the Eastern Seaboard with our travel trailer firmly attached to the car.

Fuel mileage has always been an obsession with me (basically I'm cheap) which left me with the quandry of either getting used to little cars, or to figure out how to get my "Yankee Tanks" to get respectable mileage. Obviously I opted for the latter.

None of the European diesel offerings appealed to me, the VWs were too small and the Mercedes were underpowered and expensive. Enter my first foray into automotive diesels...a 1981 Caprice wagon with a 5.7 liter diesel. Sorry no picts (digital cameras weren't even dreamed of then). Basically a great car, giving me up to 40 MPG (IMP) at 70 MPH. Problem was, it had absolutely no power. Pulling our pop-up turned it from a respectable car into a road obstruction. I now had a challange on my hands. Lets build some power into this thing. Try as I might either I could get power out of it or I could get reliability. Never both. End of the line for this engine was an 86 Caddy Fleetwood with a goodwrench 5.7, high volume injection pump, studded heads and dual exhaust. Worked great as a DD but was downright embarassing with the trailer out back.

In 89, we bought a GMC pickup for my brother with the 6.2 and we were back in the game. By 02 we were looking for a suitable vehicle to do the conversion. Having researched all of the body on frame offerings, we decided the "B" bodies met most of the requirements. As a result, I purchased my first RMW. A 1991, burgandy with red guts, that had been used as a school bus for disabled kids. 750,000 KM (472,000 mi) and suffering badly from Rust Belt cancer. Still don't know how I got it through a safety check but it went another 20,000 mi before major structural damage forced it off the road.

During the summer of 03, I found a white (tan guts) RMW on Ebay from Florida, being sold by a dealer in New Hampshire. Finally settled on $1,300 (parking lot damage and bad wood) and then took a family camping trip to pick it up. When we got there we discovered he had another one (blue on tan) in much better shape for $1,800. Long story short, we ended up with both of them. Used to have a great set of picts of the caravan consisting of the old Burgandy one pulling the trailer and the two new ones following but can't seem to find them (HD crash?).

Upon our return, stripped off all the useable parts of the original wagon and sold the balance to a local guy who had a Caprice. Drove the white one for over a year and gave the blue one to my sister in law as her DD. In the Fall of 04, we finally got around to doing the original conversion. As the white RMW, at the time, needed more body work, our thoughts were that we experiment with it as opposed to hacking up the blue one. We had not idea, our original attempt would last as long as it has.

First we stripped off the wood to expose the body work needed:





To start off, don't even think of doing this with the front clip in place. The first job was to take out three rolls of masking tape and a felt tipped pen to identify all of the underhood wiring. Then remove all of the sheet metal.







Makes engine and tranny removal soooo much easier.



With the engine bay exposed, took the opportunity to support the Eastwood company.







Checked out the 700R4 and decided that all was well but that it needed some mods to relate to the diesel. Diesel governor, high pressure servo, and a diesel torgue convertor. Also installed new throttle valve to restrict the upshift to final 10% of throttle travel.



We have a friend in Georgia (Diesel Depot) that specializes in the 6.2/6.5 engines and he supplied us with a known good and tested 6.2 "J" code (non-EGR) engine and all the parts that we thought we would need for the conversion. Ended up with at least 4 different exhaust manifold combinations and 2 intakes. Ended up with a Hummer intake and van type exhaust manifolds (more on the exhaust later).

With the engine and tranny married to each other, the first trial fit.



It became immediately obvious that we were going to have to modify the oil pan.





We also ended up referencing out the front crossover to give the starter somewhere to sit and had to have a new power steering pump pulley made up for us (plus we had to re-locate the ABS module). After about 12 trial fits, the assembly finally came home to roost.



After re-assembling the front clip, installing a custom rad (4 core), fabbing up a dual air intake (diesels love their air) and installing a dual electric fan set-up.





Coiled up all the extra wire, performed a CEL delete (took out the bulb) and wired up a switch on the dashboard to lock up the torgue. Batteies are in the rear footwell.

The only thing about this conversion that remains as a major head ache is the exhaust. Don't have any picts as I refuse to crawl under the car, in the snow, just to show you guys how bad a welder I am. The next conversion will include a true dual exhaust (if not turbo charged) but as I originally planned to install a turbo on this, I fabbed up a 3inch single exhaust and a "Y" pipe that crossed over back of the tail stock. Frankenstien doesn't even come close to describing this system.

The end result has performed well beyond our expectations and over the past 4 years have only done routine maintenance and a few mods to try to improve performance. Just had to replace the flywheel (starter chewed a hole in it) and continue having a few issues with the cooling fan circuit. Keep blowing the relay.

Going to have to continue this in another post but this should get you started.

Bill
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:04 pm

Now there's a job that I wouldn't want to tackle. I'm sure there is no book or manual for the conversion. Now, I know it is second nature to you but the first conversion must have been a big learning experience.

Tom C
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:14 pm

Subsequent to the initial conversion I have had to do very little. Have put almost 100,000 miles on the car running on diesel and am still using it as my daily. The only real change was I installed a hydro boost brake system (jury is still out on the effectiveness of that) and re-did some of the underhood plumbing to improve the clearance issues.

The car has been at WF 07 and 08 and I intend on bringing it and the new Caddy (sans diesel) to WF 09. Still haven't decided on the final configuration for the Caddy, if at all. With the price of diesel currently, and the power available with the LT1, it may not be worthwhile to invest the coin into another conversion at this time, though it's nice to be in a position to filler up with fuel you can make yourself.

My "mad scientist bio-diesel lab"



Did manage to get the Buick re-painted. Got tired of driving around with what looked like an ambulance with a skin infection.







If you have any questions, fire away.

Bill
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 01, 2009 9:49 pm

Bill

From looking at the picture of your garage, it looks like you make your own diesel fuel is that right? Were you able to use the original fuel pump?

Tom
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 01, 2009 10:06 pm

silverfox103 wrote:
Now there's a job that I wouldn't want to tackle. I'm sure there is no book or manual for the conversion. Now, I know it is second nature to you but the first conversion must have been a big learning experience.

Tom C


Tom:

Yes I have been doing these conversions for a while on various vehicles, boats and generators. Granted this is the first into the last gen "b" car but really, it is not dissimilar to doing say a small block/big block conversion. Anyone who is handy with a wrench, and has the motivation could do this. Originally set out to see if a commercial product could be developed but medical issues and a general lack of time has precluded me from taking this further. Have been trying to set enough time aside to at least develop a manual but can't seem to find the time to do even that.

You are quite correct. I do make my own fuel. Mostly for my furnace and water heater, but for 9 months of the year I do use it in the cars. Up here, diesel fuel is still close to 4 bucks a gallon and furnace is around 3 so making my own at $1.20 make sense.

The original intank pump lasted about a year but I have subsequently installed a rail pump similar to the one used on the diesel pickups. I wouldn't use the LT1 pumps as the injection pump can only handle about 10PSI.

Bill
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UberWagon



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Join date: 2008-11-04

PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:23 am

Why do I have visions of turbos and propane injection dancing through my head after reading this?
Now I know I am not that far off with ideas of putting a diesel in a Camaro to bake a oddball drag car.
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:38 am

UberWagon wrote:
Why do I have visions of turbos and propane injection dancing through my head after reading this?
Now I know I am not that far off with ideas of putting a diesel in a Camaro to bake a oddball drag car.


Theres a guy over on the diesel page that is doing just that. Not my cup of tea but ingenious non the less. Cost is the big factor. Getting power out of these engines is not hard. Just expensive.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=33337

Bill
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Sprocket



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Location: Palm Beach County

PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Mon Mar 02, 2009 2:50 pm

great story! wish I had the time and space to do something like this.

I just found out that you can drop a 454 into a TBI B-body and it'll bolt right up to the 700R and I believe the motor mounts are the same.
I see a rat motor in Ruby's future hee hee hee
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IMPALADAKID



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Age: 44
Location: Dover, NH

PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:21 am

Wow Bill
I am impressed with the car. I have seen it for a few years. Did you not have a boxy wagon converted too, before this one?

I am a lover of oil burners and have owned a few 6.2 powered military M1009s, a suburban and an airforce 2wd crew cab truck. Those engines are great in those trucks, So I would imagine it must be awsome in a b-body wagon.

I am very impressed with the bio diesel set up. You must have lived on the Diesel Page. It is such a great resorce.

Congratulations on being March LOTM.
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:37 am

IMPALADAKID wrote:
Wow Bill
I am impressed with the car. I have seen it for a few years. Did you not have a boxy wagon converted too, before this one?

I am a lover of oil burners and have owned a few 6.2 powered military M1009s, a suburban and an airforce 2wd crew cab truck. Those engines are great in those trucks, So I would imagine it must be awsome in a b-body wagon.

I am very impressed with the bio diesel set up. You must have lived on the Diesel Page. It is such a great resorce.

Congratulations on being March LOTM.


Thanks. The boxy (81 Chev wagon) didn't need a conversion. Came with the 5.7 diesel already, though by the time rust wrote paid to the car, 4 engine swaps happened before I finally managed to get some reliability out it.

Also did a 5.7 conversion on a 86 Cadillac Fleet (basically a bolt up). Used a GM Goodwrench long block and did all my engine mods for reliablilty. Unigue circumstances in that the engine dropped a valve after about 3,000 miles and my local GM dealer actually honoured the warrantee and replaced the engine free of charge (including labor). Even given the fact that it was a gas/diesel conversion and I had modified the engine! Personally I think the guys in the shop just wanted a chance to dig into the project. Good guys over there but non the less, probably not something that GM head office would really approve of.

The 6.2 really makes a better conversion. Have had virtually no problems with it and it is so much nicer then the 5.7. With the 5.7 you were always wondering when the next shoe was going to drop.

Bill
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toomanytoyz



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:14 pm

Damn Bill! I had no idea you went through that much of a rehab with the swap. Mad props to you! I've seen it at both 'Fests and it's amazing at how factory this looks. If you didn't know these didn't come with diesels, you wouldn't know just how special that clean little wagon really is. Smile

What kind of power does the 6.2 put out NA? What about with a turbo? You could make a pretty nasty, fuel-efficient sleeper out of that thing, like Ray hinted at! Smile

Nice car and a great story, Bill! Can't wait to see it again this year! Very Happy
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:08 pm

toomanytoyz wrote:
Damn Bill! I had no idea you went through that much of a rehab with the swap. Mad props to you! I've seen it at both 'Fests and it's amazing at how factory this looks. If you didn't know these didn't come with diesels, you wouldn't know just how special that clean little wagon really is. Smile

What kind of power does the 6.2 put out NA? What about with a turbo? You could make a pretty nasty, fuel-efficient sleeper out of that thing, like Ray hinted at! Smile

Nice car and a great story, Bill! Can't wait to see it again this year! Very Happy


Thanks Bill. The stock "J" (non-egr) 6.2 puts out about 160 HP @ 3,400 RPM (governed speed) and has a very similar torgue curve to the LT1 up to about 2,300 RPM. Has more then enough grunt for around town and cruises on the highway at 70 like a little locomotive. That being said it is no power house and certainly makes sure your tires last a long time.

For 4 years I have been trying to figure out how to install a turbo without it looking like a plumbers nightmare. The problem is real estate and heat. The engine alone just about maxes out the available underhood room without major sheetmetal work. Even NA, I had to go with a Hummer intake (2in lower), a lower profile water crossover and 1/2 in of extra washers under the rad suppoert just to get the hood to close.

Am seriously looking at designing a hydraulic supercharger that I can stuff into the battery box, driven by a pump on the engine. That is if I can find some compressor maps for the centifical compressors being offered (seems they want to keep these things a secret). That would allow me to use a good dual exhaust, gaining about 15hp right there, and the ability to control boost very closely. Still in the thinking stage on this and it will probably end up in the Caddy. If it works, then there would be no need for the Duramax. Looking for 400 ft/lbs of torgue and about 250 HP (within 50HP of a stock Dmax) to tow the new trailer.

Thanks again.

Bill
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firewood



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Fri Mar 13, 2009 4:58 am

Have you looked into any of the rear-mounted turbo systems? That would take plumbing and heat to the back of the car. I've never heard of the rear mount tubo's on a diesel, but I don't see why it couldn't work.
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waynes91



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:09 pm

wow convert just read thru the posting ,man that is cool,one of those rear mount turbo as mention would be trick, how much weight differance is there between the 2 motors, any spring changes ,and or handling
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:35 pm

firewood wrote:
Have you looked into any of the rear-mounted turbo systems? That would take plumbing and heat to the back of the car. I've never heard of the rear mount tubo's on a diesel, but I don't see why it couldn't work.


I looked very carefully into this setup but had two really valid concerns. This car is my daily and up here in the ice, snow and salt slush, the turbo and much of it's associated components would be a pile of rust in no time plus picture a hot section at 1,200 degrees getting dosed with 10 degree slush. The turbo manufacturers assured me that would be no problem but my concern is how many times could it survive the shock cooling.

The other problem is once again, plumbing. If you have ever seen the underside of these cars with a 3 inch exhaust, imagine two hanging down. One for exhaust and the other for upper deck air. Add to this the oil lines and where to locate the intake, once again out of the slush and crap.

Am still looking at options for the Caddy and have actually done some good research on the hydraulic blower system. By driving it with hydraulics, I can locate the blower in the now vacated battery box, right beside a cold air intake behind the passenger headlight. Looking at using the M90 Eaton blower and fabing up a cog belt drive for the hydraulic motor. A couple of oil lines, an oil cooler and resevoir and a single 3 inch pipe into the intake manifold. Might work.

Bill
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Fri Mar 13, 2009 9:43 pm

waynes91 wrote:
wow convert just read thru the posting ,man that is cool,one of those rear mount turbo as mention would be trick, how much weight differance is there between the 2 motors, any spring changes ,and or handling


Suprisingly the whole thing only dropped the ride hieght by about 1/4 inch all around. Not enough to be a concern. Thought it would be a problem and even had the specs for a new set of springs worked out. Just didn't need it. As far as handling, if anything it made the ride smoother with the added advantage that it feels better "planted" on the road.

Probably added about 200 lbs to the whole equation but being shared between front and rear wheels, no suspension mods were needed.

Thanks for your interest.

Bill
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DBeaSSt
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PostSubject: Re: Hybrid Longroof/Locomotive   Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:12 am

I think this is still my favorite wagon 'mod'. Smile I guess I was so busy admiring the engine work I hadn't noticed that the car was painted a different color than factory.
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