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 Starting the Black & Tan build

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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Jul 14, 2012 12:03 am

I started the build with Jayoldschool today. It was hot as balls, and the sweltering heat hindered our progress. We started with the lower control arms. The stock LCAs themselves were very nice and we put them on Jay's car. However, the stock rubber bushings were significantly degraded and showed extensive cracking.



I had the ATR Quad exhaust installed and tweaked to fit like a stock wagon. It looks and sounds great.

I'll continue the build when I get to BC, and update the thread as I get stuff done.

We found a wasp nest in the front fender of Jay's 95 Black WB4. We dealt with it like any reasonable adult would:


In summary: don't mess with Jay's car or he will burn your house and family to the ground.


Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:15 pm; edited 3 times in total
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95BRMW

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:28 am

I modified a propane tank for just that same purpose Very Happy
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Robert 96



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PostSubject: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Jul 14, 2012 10:13 am

Who needs Napalm? That outta work just fine!
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:29 am

Brake cleaner: very flammable!
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Jul 14, 2012 2:04 pm

jasonlachapelle wrote:


In summary: don't mess with Jay's car or he will burn your house and family to the ground.

My protege,....



nick
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Sprocket

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:33 am

oooo, I got one of these from Harbor Frieght and it's fun to 'mow' the weeds in my yard that is full of river rock

http://www.harborfreight.com/propane-torch-with-push-button-igniter-91037.html

Sounds like a hot air balloon when you pull the trigger. Oh, my neighbor used it to patch his asphalt driveway too Smile
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jimbeau



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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:21 pm

Sprocket wrote:
oooo, I got one of these from Harbor Frieght and it's fun to 'mow' the weeds in my yard that is full of river rock...
I can see the headline: "Region devastated by fire started by reckless arsonist"
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Sprocket

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:41 pm

Well I did catch my fence on fire once already.....now I hose it down with water really good first!
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COL

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:59 pm

Robert 96 wrote:
Who needs Napalm? That outta work just fine!

Ever been close to a Napalm strike? I have. F%%#Ing Awsome! In March 1972 I called for some artillery support but received two Navy fast movers (F4) with the juice instead. Marked our position with purple smoke and they dropped it, danger close to our front. The heat and concussion was unbelievable. Result was excellent. A huge wall of flame 100' high by about 200 meters long. No more resistance up the box canyon.
Excuse an old soldier for a short flashback.............
Dick
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jimbeau



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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:19 pm

Wow, cool story, Dick!... Must have felt good knowing they had your back.
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:58 pm

I suddenly feel a little less badass...
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COL

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:28 pm

jayoldschool wrote:
I suddenly feel a little less badass...
Jay,
You're still a badass.
Dick
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COL

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:31 pm

jimbeau wrote:
Wow, cool story, Dick!... Must have felt good knowing they had your back.

Jim,
As a ground pounder I must say I have the utmost respect for all Aviators. Army helecopters saved our ass countless times too.
Dick
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chevy5seven

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:13 pm

Dick and any others that I do not know, Thank you for what you all sacrificed for us.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:13 pm

Despite my greatest efforts to keep the car stock, the build continues.

I drove across the continent and put a LOT of miles on the wagon. I've put 7000 miles on it since mid May. I drove from Ottawa, ON to Comox, BC through the USA, stopping at some sweet locations on the way. I'll post up some pics in a different thread.

During the trip we had a stock tire delaminate at 70 mph near Eau Claire, WI. It's stupid to lust after OEM tires. I knew they needed to be replaced, but I thought I could get them to BC and chuck them, but no joy. Fortunately the steel mesh kept the tire together for 2-3 miles until we could get to a Wal-Mart. Since I knew we would be driving through the Badlands, Yellowstone, Mountains, etc, I figured I'd put 2 new tires in the back. Got the cheapest ones I could find close to 28" : a pair of 215/75R15. The car looked like those dudes with chicken legs at the gym who only work out their upper body. Whatever, it got the job done for $140. It was really hard to persuade the genius at Wal-mart to allow me to run a different tire size as apparently they can only sell you what is in the door panel. I used a calculator to show him it was basically the same diameter, with an error of around 1%. After a trickle of blood came out of his ears, he made me sign a waiver and we were off. Let this be a warning to people with old tires. Also, if you plan on driving through the continent, it's wiser to go through the USA as there are towns and shops every few miles along the interstates. If this had happened at the same point in Canada, I would have been boned because there are practically no stops along the way.





To sum things up, minor damage to the lower quarter from tossing the threads, and the car is now getting the OZ wheels put on. I would slap them on myself, but the guy who installed the tires on the OZs put one on "inside out". Well played.

Also, it seems the car didn't enjoy the drive through the mountains as much as I did as the trans officially died last week at 47000 mi. No movement in any gear. Fortunately, it didn't happen during the roadtrip, and I had Tim's rebuilt 4L60e in the shed. A big thanks to Jayoldschool for reading me the trans "common failures thread" over the phone and to Joel for calling me late at night to shed some light on the issue. Instead of wasting time and money trying to diagnose the problem, the rebuild with the Sonnax kit is going in, as well as the Yank SS2800. Because it would be no fun to drive a car with a 2800 rpm stall TC, 3.73 gears and a Truetrac differential ar going in as well. Pics to come.



Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:26 pm

Boy you got lucky with that tire. Hope all goes well with the tranny swap. Let us know what you think of the Truetrac. Seems to be a nice piece on paper.
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brokecello
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Aug 11, 2012 6:44 pm

Wow! Glad your tire didn't shred to pieces....that wagon is rolling everywhere! 7k miles since May...
Looking forward to your upcoming mods!

Chris
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:11 pm

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
Let us know what you think of the Truetrac. Seems to be a nice piece on paper.
It is. I got one for my brother when he did his 96 caprice wagon. I prefer it to the clutch-type Eaton for a street driven car, especially for winter driving. It feels much nice going through turns, and on slippery roads.
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scoffman

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:54 am

That's what happens when you try to turn your tires into racing slicks. . .you loose all the rubber What a Face

Glad you were able to limp along and get replacements without having to pay for a tow.
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200OZ
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:32 pm

I'm glad nothing serious happened to you or the car after the tread came off.

Looking forward to the pics of it with the OZ's.

Mike
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lornejay1

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:16 pm


Ae you kidding me,transmission is toast.PM me,I will do my part,can't believe it.

Tires were safe driving thru town leading Funeral processions,but they should have never been tested past Ontario,car empty,glad you had a safe landing.

Lorne.


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sherlock9c1



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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:44 pm

Jason, do yourself a favor and paint your rear drums with black Caliper paint before winter. I think Duplicolor makes it? It was pricey for a can of spray paint but it has held up amazing on a friend's minivan's rear drums I did last fall. It lays down probably the nicest of any spray can paint I have ever seen.
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:52 pm

I second this. Did mine when I painted my car.
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:07 pm

Hell, I'd clear coat those bad boys!
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:11 pm

Would the clear stand up to the heat? lol

[Not sure if srs...]
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Sprocket

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:13 pm

I had a tire delam and swapped it out for the spare. The spare turned out to be an eight year old tire. I blew it out going 70 on the turnpike. Tread made a huge dent in the rear pass quarter and the tire was shredded inside of 200 yards when I stopped. Luckily the spare was on a n97 rim and was not an issue. Scared the heck out of the guy I was passing.

No longer do I run old tires....
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sherlock9c1



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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 10:20 pm

How old was the tire?
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lornejay1

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:00 pm

sherlock9c1 wrote:
How old was the tire?

Three were original,not sure of the location on the car.

Not the issue anyway,they were old,he knew better,

The transmission is the real issue here,unacceptable based on these cars durability.





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GN1220



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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:37 pm

sherlock9c1 wrote:
Jason, do yourself a favor and paint your rear drums with black Caliper paint before winter. I think Duplicolor makes it? It was pricey for a can of spray paint but it has held up amazing on a friend's minivan's rear drums I did last fall. It lays down probably the nicest of any spray can paint I have ever seen.


Drums should be cast color, not black. They would've had more paint on them but I ran out and never finished the job. And really, the tranny is gone? Just an old junk wagon Rolling Eyes
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:34 am

GN1220 wrote:
Just an old junk wagon Rolling Eyes

What a horrible thing to say,.

people that seem to think that the generals "original" parts are superior,. are quite misguided,.the transmission will be rebuilt, and upgraded as i know the new owner improves all of his cars, and the car will be better than GM built it.


Nick
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DROLDS2U

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:57 pm

what were the original brand of tires from the factory
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:18 pm

Good suggestion about the brakes. They make hi-temp clear.

I did know better for the tires. the one that blew was OEM. I tried to cheap out and get them to BC to avoid putting the mileage on the Goodyear F1 supercars. Just a warning for others not to use old tires.

No worries about the trans Lorne. All the previous owners took meticulous care of it. And it's not just a junk old wagon. It'll be better than new.
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:40 pm

I can proudly say the Black and Tan OE exhaust is living on under my blue Caprice! I had it installed before my trip to Maine. Wow, is it ever quiet. Also, the tips may be the cleanest part on my car.
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:57 pm

Thats how you recycle!Wonder if all the low speed funeral processions might have had some
effect on the transmission life.Not enough heat in the fluid can ruin one too!
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lornejay1

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:13 pm

Flasheroo wrote:
Thats how you recycle!Wonder if all the low speed funeral processions might have had some
effect on the transmission life.Not enough heat in the fluid can ruin one too!

Can't see it Jim,I only used it for three Funerals.

Hearse has 46000 miles on it as of today,and they were all low speed,took 18 years to do it.



Ok,nuff of the past,on with the new Jaon,looking forward to this thread.

Lorne.


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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:19 pm

I want that hearse. So beautiful. Sad


[/minor threadjack]
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:02 pm

Back in the saddle. 3.73s and a Yank SS2800 drive just like stock at part throttle. Open it up, and it's like the car lost 1000 lbs.

If anyone needs an upgrade I have a BNIB Yank SS3200.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:38 pm

I've been away on TD in the prairies for a while. When I got back, the wagon had 2 of the black rubber bands peeling off. I swear, the guys in Arlington just licked the back of the rubber strips and pressed them onto the stainless. A dab of windshield urethane got them back on without too much hassle.

Also, I fit 30 x 2 cu-ft bags of mulch in the back of the wagon
yesterday, which gave it the "lowrider" look. I got a lot of compliments from the guys at the store, and the guy installing the
satellite dish this morning asked me what kind of car it was. I'm certainly looking forward to replacing the springs with the 750# fronts and CC505 rears with bilsteins all around.

While I was away. An ISSF member contacted me about a part I had been looking for for a while: an Accel / Lingenfelter Super Ram for the LT1. The next phase of the build will be to change the cam, heads, tri-y headers and Super Ram intake. I have the LE1 heads and will be getting a mild cam ground for low-end and mid-range power. Because this is a heavy wagon (vs an F-body) with ported heads, I want to keep the exhaust duration a bit shorter IOT bump the low and midrange slightly at the expense of that extra ~2-300 rpm of powerband. I keep my shifts at or below 6000 rpm regardless IOT maximise transmission longevity. I'll be using split 1.7/1.6 ratio rockers on the intake and exhaust respectively. The 1.6 ratio rocker on the exhaust side is based on the tuning theory for mid-RPM N/A engines that aims to make sure the exhaust port doesn't blow down too early so it doesn't lose the velocity and negative pressure pulse that's needed during overlap to help pull on the intake charge. At the very conservative RPM I'll be running, the port will have more than enough time to blow down.

I'm looking at getting a Colt cams 213/222 .544/.536 on an 110 LSA. Note its similarity to the GM "845" (Crane 109821) [214/222 .520/.543 112 LSA] and Lloyd Elliot's "sleeper" cam [212/222 .563/.562 114 LSA]. Colt is a local BC company, so I'm inclined to spend my money with them vs Comp. I have been mulling over Comp's LT3312/3314HR110+4 which is 212/224 .553/.537 110 LSA. I really like their XE lobe profile. Any (legitimate / technical) comments regarding cam selection are welcome.

Back to the Super Ram intake. It never really caught on in the LT1 community. It has longer runners and lets the engine make a lot more torque down low, at the expense of power up top. Exactly what I am striving for. You can read a bit about it here. Disregard the quoted price, that dude was on crack.










Unfortunately I'll soon be leaving for 8-9 months leaving the wagon stored in BC, so the next phase will probably only get done next summer. I have a lot of stuff to do around the house before leaving, so sadly the mods will have to be put off. Not a huge deal since I still haven't wiped the smile off my face from the 3.73s and Yank 2800.


Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:20 pm

Damn,thats a wicked looking intake sytem!Looks like they utilized the best of the factory TPI
intake system and made everything larger and then added that monstrous ram housing to the
top.No wonder it cost so much money but looks like its worth every penny.Wonder if it will
even fit under a stock hood?
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:00 pm

OHHHHH MYYYYY, Lingenfelter!!!! You MUST polish the intake, runners, and upper chamber!! Or powdercoat in gloss black with polished runners.

Why does in the intake have a water jacket? I like the idea of 1.7/1.6 but what springs will you run to accommodate the 1.7? Do your heads flow enough at the higher lift to use this lift?

I am running the crane 2033 (227) cam in the NotRod and love it. I am only running 1.5 ratio RR, but looking for a possible swap to 1.6 for a little more torque. Great cam overall.

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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:15 pm

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
OHHHHH MYYYYY, Lingenfelter!!!! You MUST polish the intake, runners, and upper chamber!! Or powdercoat in gloss black with polished runners.
I'm not spending any money on show, just go. I'll clean it up though.

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

Why does in the intake have a water jacket?
Because it's designed for a TPI. Accel never cast a new LT1 specific baseplate, just adapted the TPI one.

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

I like the idea of 1.7/1.6 but what springs will you run to accommodate the 1.7? Do your heads flow enough at the higher lift to use this lift? I am running the crane 2033 (227) cam in the NotRod and love it. I am only running 1.5 ratio RR, but looking for a possible swap to 1.6 for a little more torque. Great cam overall.

Beehives. Yes. I indicated the intake lift on the Colt and Comp cams using 1.7 ratio: .544 and .553" respectively. The crane 227 has .552 lift on the exhaust side using 1.6 rockers. I agree that the 227 is a great off the shelf cam, but it's optimized for stock heads with a restrictive exhaust port. Because I have 3.73s and a good converter I want a bit more intake duration, and because the E/I ratio is better with ported heads and considering my goals, I don't mind going with a hair less exhaust duration, but tightening the LSA.
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200OZ
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:47 pm

jasonlachapelle wrote:
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
OHHHHH MYYYYY, Lingenfelter!!!! You MUST polish the intake, runners, and upper chamber!! Or powdercoat in gloss black with polished runners.
I'm not spending any money on show, just go. I'll clean it up though.
.


????? So why the 30,000 mile cream puff?

Still jealous... Cool looking intake, flush brass or stainless pipe plugs, and some new stainless hardware will clean up the appearance on the intake, if you care.

Mike
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:34 pm

WOW! I can't believe you found one. Nice.
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:24 pm

200OZ wrote:

????? So why the 30,000 mile cream puff?

Still jealous... Cool looking intake, flush brass or stainless pipe plugs, and some new stainless hardware will clean up the appearance on the intake, if you care.

why not ? it was a great starting point for a build. Maybe I expressed myself poorly: I do want the car to look nice, so I'll make sure the intake is clean. I just don't feel it's worth it to spend money on powdercoating or polishing. FWIW that's not the specific intake I bought. They were the only detailed pics of an LT1 I could find.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:48 am

i wonder if there would be any real difference with the "optimised" cam vs an "off the shelf cam,.unless well controlled tests, i doubt there would be any noticeable real world every day driving difference,. unless measured against all out ET's (just my jaded humble opinion of course.
might be splitting hairs here,
1.7 rockers are difficult to set a good valve tip pattern, and really stress stuff at high rpm.
I think the intake was always an underated piece, nice to have.

Nick

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:50 pm

Maybe you're right Nick, but the 227 and 845 are up to $450, whereas the regrind is $250. I like the idea of going with a 110 LSA vs the 112 that most off-the-shelf grinds go for.

I'd rather have a milder lift cam with higher lift rockers vs a cam with high lobe lift and and 1.5 ratio rockers. I realize they will be "trickier" to setup properly.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:35 am

110 is lumpier than 112,.
same specs with 108 lsa would be lumpier still,.

I fail to understand the rationale behind preferring lower cam lift and higher ratio rockers,.
the end result at the valve will be the same,.? but with higher stress on the rocker stud,. unless going to a shaft setup.
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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:00 pm

I've used a cam with 108 LSA and don't want to again. I don't mind the lumpier idle, but that's not why I want to go with a 110.

I agree with you 100%: the end result at the valve would be the same. It's probably irrelevant with the modest cam and RPM I want to run, but the issue with a high-lift lobe and a low-ratio rocker ratio is the increase in velocity to the heaviest parts of the valve train
(namely the lifters, push rods, etc.). People counter this by raising in spring pressure,
which in turn requires stiffer (heavier) push rods, lifters, etc. It ends up being a vicious circle.
By using a high-ratio rocker and low-lift lobe (within reasonable limits...I'm not talking rockers that will create design issues), you can minimize the velocity of the valvetrain's heaviest parts while still maintaining high valve velocities. Your valvespring
is working to control the valve, as opposed to the whole system.

I'm not saying just go with a crazy rocker ratio. At some point the speed at the valve would be out of control. If you were really pushing the envelope (I'm really, really far from that) you'd want a compromise between the lobe lift and rocker ratio needed to generate the required velocities at the valve.

No doubt I am overthinking it. I'm running 7/16 rocker studs, so I'm not particularly concerned about the studs. Personally, I think 1.7s never caught on because a) there are no self-aligning ones available, and b) people know the 1.6 ratio doesn't require new pushrods.


Last edited by jasonlachapelle on Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:05 am

well you said what i was thinkng,.
mebbe at 8-10,000 rpm lower lobes might help,.
but stockers up to 6??
and the lift you,re talking isn't a lot,.
the 847 i have with crane springs will bounce the limiter pretty quick,.little more cam tho,. Wink
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jasonlachapelle

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PostSubject: Re: Starting the Black & Tan build   Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:41 am

But lower lift lobes with higher ratio rockers won't hurt either. Since a "custom" cam is custom to the extent that the lobe is in the grinder's catalogue, the 1.7I/1.6E rocker split seems like a decent way to achieve my goal.
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