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 Tranny coming out again!! :(

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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 6:05 pm

Pilot bearing is on its way out. Hope to remove balance the flywheel and clutch and re-install this weekend or next.

Love the T56, hate the issues.
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81X11

81X11

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 6:09 pm

Wow...ouch. Zero fun. Good luck.
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toomanytoyz

toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 7:53 pm

Welcome to the wonderful world of T56'dom. Rolling Eyes

(but it's worth it) Wink
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gmtech

gmtech

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Location : Tornado Alley Oklahoma

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 8:07 pm

What type of pilot bearing is being used? Bushing or roller type?
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toomanytoyz

toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 9:32 pm

I've used both. There are arguments on both sides as to which is better. I didn't notice a real difference, but liked the bushings better... Less to go wrong. Wink
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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 9:41 pm

I have the needle roller bearing, but being and idiot, I tapped it in with a hammer. Should have used a wood dowel or 2x4. I have a bushing I got with one of my clutches, Shocked , I will use that to replace it with.

Hydraulics also failing, blaming the cat that is 1/2" away from the slave cylinder. Went ghetto and built a heat shield out of an old NYS license plate and aim to insulate the back of it. I may also put the straight pipes from my Impala on it and cats on the Impala.
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Guest
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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeThu 03 Jan 2013, 10:14 pm

While many have done the T-56 conversion before you,doubt seriously that anyone has driven
theirs as much as you have.Hope you are documenting everything,good and bad since doing the
swap so we can make sure we wont run into the same problems scratch study geek
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toomanytoyz

toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 12:53 pm

One thing about being a T56 swap owner is for sure... You get good at yanking the tranny! Wink I used to be able to do it from the car on the ground to the tranny on the ground in an hour and 15 minutes. I musta had it out of the Fleetwood a dozen times. Four or five times on the impala. I can only imagine how many times I'll need to with the marshmallow....
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jayoldschool

jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 5:31 pm

Mine went in ten years ago, and has never come out. Used stock hydraulics with a parts store slave that I had to fill and bleed, and a pilot bearing. Many thousands of trouble free driving.
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sherlock9c1



Posts : 2120
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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 5:45 pm

I'm in the process of pulling the 4L60E out of my RMW. The darn thing lasted 153,000 miles.
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silverfox103
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silverfox103

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 6:23 pm

sherlock9c1 wrote:
I'm in the process of pulling the 4L60E out of my RMW. The darn thing lasted 153,000 miles.

My original 95 RMW which I had from 97 to 09 with 237K, worked perfectly from day one. It worked perfectly when I sold it. On the other hand my Caprice Wagon barely made it to 100K when it needed a tranny, 700 miles from home.

Tom
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gmtech

gmtech

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 8:10 pm

Just out of curiosity, what kind of mileage are you getting out of the pilot bushing/bearing before replacement is needed?
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toomanytoyz

toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 8:24 pm

gmtech wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what kind of mileage are you getting out of the pilot bushing/bearing before replacement is needed?

The only ones I've heard of failing, ever, was the bearing. Despite all the talk that the bearing is superior, I've never seen a bushing fail.
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jayoldschool

jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 9:13 pm

No one ever complains when things don't go wrong Cool
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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 04 Jan 2013, 11:02 pm

jayoldschool wrote:
No one ever complains when things don't go wrong Cool

Bushing or bearing Jay? How many miles?
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phantom 309

phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 12:10 am

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
Pilot bearing is on its way out. Hope to remove balance the flywheel and clutch and re-install this weekend or next.

Love the T56, hate the issues.

how did you arrive at this diagnosis,.

Nick
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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 8:11 am

Makes noise on occasion when clutch is depressed, while running, in or out of gear. The noise sounds like a shaft in a bearing with some play. It goes away when you engage the clutch. Will do it in any gear.

Additionally the hydraulics are going away as well. If the car is real warm and you hold down the clutch for an extended period of time, it has issues going into gear. The slave cylinder is about 1/2" away from the CAT so I believe it has been overheated and the fluid is pushing past the seal internally. The Tri Y headers and CAT set up do not play well with the T56. I have now built a heat shield and have a new set of Wagner hydraulics coming from Advance Auto online.

My new flywheel clutch (pressure plate) set up is not as balanced as I would like, so I am going to have those balanced as well while the tranny is out.
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toomanytoyz

toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 8:49 am

Yeah, but once you get it right, it'll be worth all the headaches!!! Smile

I never liked how close the exhaust was to the slave, either. So I got rid of the cats. Wink
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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 8:52 am

Might do that also bill. I can put the cats on the impala. It has pipes.
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phantom 309

phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 12:13 pm

A pilot bearing will make noise whether the clutch is in or out,.and will do it constantly,.
I,d be looking at the throwout bearing,

Lt1 clutches and flywheels are externally balanced for the motor,.if you neutral balance them it'll break the crank,.and vibrate,

make sure your U joint angles are equal,. it'll vibrate if not,.

T56's are notorious for the "bag of marbles,. bad bearing sounds," it can be corrected, but better to live with the noise,..

I run AW32 hydraulic oil in mine,. its a little expensive but keeps the noise to a minimum

Use the thermaflect heat shield stuff,. to reflect the heat away from the slave,


JMHO,.

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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 1:19 pm

I appreciate the input.

phantom 309 wrote:
A pilot bearing will make noise whether the clutch is in or out,.and will do it constantly,.
I,d be looking at the throwout bearing,

It is only when I have the clutch in and I stick the car into a gear and it will start to "wirl". If I pull it out of gear in continues. When I let the clutch out it stops. I thought a throw out would act up when the clutch is out (engaged)? Correct me if I am wrong. If the clutch pedal is depressed the input shaft is turning a different speed than the motor so the pilot bearing is being put to task. If the clutch is engaged (pedal released) the input shaft is turning the same speed as the motor.

phantom 309 wrote:

Lt1 clutches and flywheels are externally balanced for the motor,.if you neutral balance them it'll break the crank,.and vibrate,

make sure your U joint angles are equal,. it'll vibrate if not,.

When my builder put my motor together he balanced it internally and then put the flywheel on the end of the crank and balanced the flywheel. I have since changed flywheels. I speak to the builder about this before I do it. I do have a vibration above 4k.

phantom 309 wrote:

T56's are notorious for the "bag of marbles,. bad bearing sounds," it can be corrected, but better to live with the noise,..

I run AW32 hydraulic oil in mine,. its a little expensive but keeps the noise to a minimum

Yeah and with my shifter (no rubber grommet) it really brings those "marbles" into the cabin. This noise is new and different.

phantom 309 wrote:


Use the thermaflect heat shield stuff,. to reflect the heat away from the slave,


JMHO,.


I have a piece of thermal barrier I am going to try.
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jayoldschool

jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 2:04 pm

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
Makes noise on occasion when clutch is depressed, while running, in or out of gear. The noise sounds like a shaft in a bearing with some play. It goes away when you engage the clutch. Will do it in any gear.

Additionally the hydraulics are going away as well. If the car is real warm and you hold down the clutch for an extended period of time, it has issues going into gear. The slave cylinder is about 1/2" away from the CAT so I believe it has been overheated and the fluid is pushing past the seal internally. The Tri Y headers and CAT set up do not play well with the T56. I have now built a heat shield and have a new set of Wagner hydraulics coming from Advance Auto online.

My new flywheel clutch (pressure plate) set up is not as balanced as I would like, so I am going to have those balanced as well while the tranny is out.

Your hydraulic problems are symptomatic of air in the system. Give it a bleed before condemning them. I went through the exact same thing. Don't assume there is fluid coming past a seal until you can confirm it. Do you know how to properly bleed it?

Someone asked bearing or bushing, and my miles. Pilot bearing, installed by Nick, about 40 000 miles. Daily driver in the summer, and it's been on a road course, autocrossed, and to the strip.
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sherlock9c1



Posts : 2120
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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 4:06 pm

Anyone else need a T56 - there's a wrecked '94 firebird LT1/T56 with 68k on it for sale in Syracuse for $1500 - whole car.
http://syracuse.craigslist.org/cto/3517800292.html
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silverfox103
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silverfox103

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 4:35 pm

Tim
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 6:52 pm

silverfox103 wrote:
Tim

Nice Tom, I thought you were a good guy!!! Wink
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 6:55 pm

jayoldschool wrote:
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
Makes noise on occasion when clutch is depressed, while running, in or out of gear. The noise sounds like a shaft in a bearing with some play. It goes away when you engage the clutch. Will do it in any gear.

Additionally the hydraulics are going away as well. If the car is real warm and you hold down the clutch for an extended period of time, it has issues going into gear. The slave cylinder is about 1/2" away from the CAT so I believe it has been overheated and the fluid is pushing past the seal internally. The Tri Y headers and CAT set up do not play well with the T56. I have now built a heat shield and have a new set of Wagner hydraulics coming from Advance Auto online.

My new flywheel clutch (pressure plate) set up is not as balanced as I would like, so I am going to have those balanced as well while the tranny is out.

Your hydraulic problems are symptomatic of air in the system. Give it a bleed before condemning them. I went through the exact same thing. Don't assume there is fluid coming past a seal until you can confirm it. Do you know how to properly bleed it?

Someone asked bearing or bushing, and my miles. Pilot bearing, installed by Nick, about 40 000 miles. Daily driver in the summer, and it's been on a road course, autocrossed, and to the strip.

I bled it, we will see if that helps. I also finished my heat shield buy putting a piece of heat blanket on it and wrapping in reflective heat tape. almost looks la-git!!!
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phantom 309

phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 7:48 pm

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
I appreciate the input.
thats funny,.

phantom 309 wrote:
A pilot bearing will make noise whether the clutch is in or out,.and will do it constantly,.
I,d be looking at the throwout bearing,
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

It is only when I have the clutch in and I stick the car into a gear and it will start to "wirl". If I pull it out of gear in continues. When I let the clutch out it stops. I thought a throw out would act up when the clutch is out (engaged)? Correct me if I am wrong. If the clutch pedal is depressed the input shaft is turning a different speed than the motor so the pilot bearing is being put to task. If the clutch is engaged (pedal released) the input shaft is turning the same speed as the motor.

A little more info, and i agree with you,..

phantom 309 wrote:

Lt1 clutches and flywheels are externally balanced for the motor,.if you neutral balance them it'll break the crank,.and vibrate,

make sure your U joint angles are equal,. it'll vibrate if not,.
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

When my builder put my motor together he balanced it internally and then put the flywheel on the end of the crank and balanced the flywheel. I have since changed flywheels. I speak to the builder about this before I do it. I do have a vibration above 4k.
Why did you change the matching flywheel?

phantom 309 wrote:

T56's are notorious for the "bag of marbles,. bad bearing sounds," it can be corrected, but better to live with the noise,..

I run AW32 hydraulic oil in mine,. its a little expensive but keeps the noise to a minimum
BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

Yeah and with my shifter (no rubber grommet) it really brings those "marbles" into the cabin. This noise is new and different.

phantom 309 wrote:


Use the thermaflect heat shield stuff,. to reflect the heat away from the slave,


JMHO,.


BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
I have a piece of thermal barrier I am going to try.

does thermal barrier reflect heat too ?

Nick
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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 05 Jan 2013, 7:53 pm

phantom 309 wrote:

Why did you change the matching flywheel?


Went away from the dual mass to a stock Camaro flywheel

phantom 309 wrote:


Does it reflect heat too ?

Nick

Yes not that I wrapped it in heat reflective tape.
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toomanytoyz

toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSun 06 Jan 2013, 8:53 am

Nick's right there. But I think you knew about the marble noises... And once the tranny is out, if the needle bearings are all in the pilot bearing, and it's not mushroomed from install, then it's fine and it probably is the throw out bearing.

Nick, what's this fluid? Who makes it? Where can I get it? How does it affect the shifting? I've tried a few synthetics and they made the shifting too "notchy" for me.
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSun 06 Jan 2013, 9:50 am

I did not use wood to install. I think I messed it up! And I know better!
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BigBlackBeaSSt

BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeMon 07 Jan 2013, 8:25 am

Tranny coming out again!!  :( IMG_20130106_1916412_zpsd50f10a6

This gives an idea of how close the CAT and slave cylinder are.

Tranny coming out again!!  :( IMG_20130106_1916562_zpsb15d4b1a

The heat shield began its life as a NYS plate.
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeMon 07 Jan 2013, 12:19 pm

I think mine is closer. We had to grind some metal off the bellhousing where the slave mounts, and put a dent in the cat. This is with the cat in the stock location, however. I "think" you should be ok with that distance. Hopefully the bleed helps things out.
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeMon 07 Jan 2013, 12:33 pm

Thanks again jay for the info. As you know I bled it yesterday and will be taking her on the road tomorrow for a few days. I will let you know how it works.

Tim
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeFri 11 Jan 2013, 11:11 pm

toomanytoyz wrote:

Nick, what's this fluid? Who makes it? Where can I get it? How does it affect the shifting? I've tried a few synthetics and they made the shifting too "notchy" for me.

AW 32 is a hydraulic oil,.



>>>>> AW 32<<<<<
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toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 12 Jan 2013, 5:54 pm

I lol'd Wink

Thanks. Razz
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jayoldschool

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 12 Jan 2013, 7:09 pm

I also lol'd. I've seen that link before, but this was the first time I clicked on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 12 Jan 2013, 7:13 pm

LMAO,thats a good laugh for sure!
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Tranny coming out again!! :(   Tranny coming out again!!  :( Icon_minitimeSat 12 Jan 2013, 10:55 pm

OK I attempted to bleed the hydraulics with little success. I ordered a new assembly and installed it today. Put about 35 miles on it so far with good reports. I will be traveling all next week in Philly. Will report back.
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