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 Roo Wagon Down again

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Sprocket

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PostSubject: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 5:52 pm

Just spoke to Ray He's waiting for AAA on the side of the road.
Car running funky and hot, took 3qts oil and 50 miles later same deal.

Had him take a look underneath and it looks like its spraying out around the timing cover
He's pulling a trailer full of college life which I'm sure didn't help.

He's within his AAA tow range to get it home....

Now he's an unemployed college grad with a broken down car...

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toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 6:10 pm

Damn. That really sucks. Sad
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GraypaHarwick

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 8:04 pm

Man talk about bad luck. But from what I have seen it will not get him down.
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benn

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 8:16 pm

poor guy, cant catch a break. he deserves a change in luck.

the trailer tow was a blessing though.
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BigBlackBeaSSt

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 9:39 pm

Sorry for the misfortune Ray!! We will say a prayer for you.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 10:15 pm

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:
Sorry for the misfortune Ray!! We will say a prayer for you.

do prayers help cars?

please a few for my wagon,..it needs some help,.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 10:45 pm

Ray, what are you doing to that poor car.
The cover is a pain to R&R. You need a puller for the torsional damper. You can get it out without dropping the pan completely. just lower it a little. Actually you can get it off without removing the pan if you are careful. You can do it on the car.
If the timing chain is sloppy, you could replace the timing set while you are in there They are cheap, and good insurance. The crank gear needs a puller, and the new one can be put on with a short pipe, and hammer. I put one on my 100K engine, because the original one was really sloppy.
If you pull the pan down, clean the corners where the gasket curves sharply, and put a little silicone sealant in them.
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95BRMW

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 05, 2013 10:54 pm

That really sucks!
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toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 9:41 am

Well, since you have all this free time now, why not throw a junkyard 5.3 and 4l60 in it? Won't cost you all that much more than fixing it anyways... Most yards you can get that for like 300-400 bucks now!
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 10:27 am

toomanytoyz wrote:
Well, since you have all this free time now, why not throw a junkyard 5.3 and 4l60 in it? Won't cost you all that much more than fixing it anyways... Most yards you can get that for like 300-400 bucks now!
By the time it is installed, he will have at least $1500 (low estimate) and a month's work involved. The repair of his current motor will be about $100 or less, and a week of work in the evenings. He is a student, and can ill afford the swap right now. The engines are about $300, the trans is about another $125, and the computer, wiring harness, starter, exhaust, trans crossmember, wiring, oil pan, oil pump, FEAD, engine mounts, computer tune, and a bunch of other odds and ends will cost more than the original engine and trans. Then there is the headache of getting all the quirks sorted out that allow it to fit in a 91 car that you find during the installation process.
I would also think he is about tapped out financially right now as well.
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a1awind

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 10:56 am

well, ray got boned again. i talked to him late last night. the tow truck driver was going to charge him $100 flat rate to haul the trailer back to stuart. but then something happened,
stay tuned for the next episode of "as ray's world turns"
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 11:11 am

Stingroo wrote:
Tow truck driver can rot.

So we get to Vero Beach, and the truck needs gas. We stop at a truck stop. Well, the problem is, whoever drove the truck before didn't put the gas card back in the log book. So he calls dispatch. Dispatch says "You should have $400 cash on you from the trailer tow. Use that." He says "The lady only gave me $100" (referencing my mom). So they then refuse to release the car OR the trailer (despite the fact that the car is covered and paid for) until we fork over the other $300. I basically had to beg, borrow, and steal to get the money to release everything I own from this damn truck. I plan on calling the tow company in the morning and tearing them a new asshole. I hope the driver gets fired. It's not my fault he made some damn under-the-table deal and was too stupid to shut his trap to dispatch. It's not my fault AAA wants $2.50 a mile to tow a trailer - which is stupid anyway because we're already going that way as it is!

Basically... worst week of my life.

I thought graduation was supposed to be a happy time. I guess not. I'm home now, every dollar I had (and several I didn't) is gone, and now I've got to fix it today or tomorrow.

www.bbb.org, and a letter to your state consumer protection bureau too. What a bag of assholes these people are.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 11:15 am

Somebody give the guy a break.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 11:30 am

You would have been better off buying a couple of gallons of oil, and driving it home.
I would help, but you are a little far for me to drive there.
Do you need a gasket, or seal, or both? They may come in a kit. You can rent the puller for the torsional damper from AZ. The front seal is pressed in. You can do it with a board and hammer.
You will need a razor blade (maybe several) to scrape the old gasket off. The gasket scraping will take more time than the rest of the job. Put a rag over the crank and hole, or tape it up to keep the gasket parts out of the engine.
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Cadet57

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 3:27 pm

Stingroo wrote:
I don't know which it needs. I'll probably fix both because I'm in there, right?

I assume/hope Advance rents the same thing. AZ is about 15 miles from here. Advance is about 3.

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_timing-cover-gasket-set-felpro_5783267-p?searchTerm=timing+cover+gasket

Looks like I get the gasket and seal for $8. Can't go wrong with that. So I need that and the puller tool for the balancer?

You need a gear puller for the gears. I used one like this:


To get the balancer off, I just used a HF steering wheel/bolt puller. Wouldn't hurt to pick up some extra coolant in case you loose some taking the water pump off.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 3:47 pm

The puller for the balancer is a cross between a steering wheel puller and a power steering puller. More like a steering wheel puller on steroids. Has the bolts, and a large screw in the middle.

You said both? Do you mean the gasket and seal, or the timing set? The timing set takes a puller for the crank gear like the one in Cadet57 posted.

If you are doing the timing set, I got a pipe about 4 inches long and 2 inches in diameter at the local hardware store (scraps) for about $3. The pipe just has to fit over the end of the crank, and the key. A couple of stiff whacks with a heavy hammer and it was on. It would add about 30 minutes to your work time. Put the timing marks together before you remove the gears, and you do not have to do anything but put the parts on (dump some oil on the chain before installing.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 7:16 pm

As fred said,. for future reference,. $50 worth of oil would have been cheaper,.

My opinion, and advice along with about $2.00 will get you coffee anywhere,.

With the miles on the car,.

I would determine the cause of the leak first,.

IF it needs a new oil pan , and /or a new timing cover,.
i would put a new chain in it, and a new cam gear,.
leave the crank gear alone,.(I say this nicely because with your skill level,. it is possible to mark up the end of the crank or the balancer threads making it all the more frustrating for you,.)
Do you have an oil cooler on it? it maybe a line?,.

Post some pics after you,ve cleaned it up,.

You'll get good "practical" advice, if you phone the right "practical minded" guys,.

nick
I brought my 94 6.5 diesel dually back from chicago with a hole in #5 piston,.blowby was phenomenal, even with the intake inlet removed,.
it cost me 9 gals of oil,.undercoated the whole bottom of the truck and most of the tailgate,.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 7:41 pm

Ray, I would replace the crank gear because the original gear has wear marks on it, and may affect the wear of the chain. It is really easy, and you almost can't screw it up. If you use a cast iron pipe, it will not mark anything, because the pipe is softer than the crank or gear. The key is not removable, so it will go on the shaft on only one position. I did mine, and it was far easier than I thought it would be. Just be sure to have the timing marks aligned before you take the old ones off, and do not move anything while they are off. Put locking compound on the bolts if the kit or FSM says to.
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 9:34 pm

You could have limped it to my house for help. My calculations of Stuart plus 160 miles north is right around Daytona.

Funny thing is I was going to message you about the crossmember and pipes. Guess off to the scrap pile they go.

Good luck getting the wagon fixed.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 9:46 pm

Stingroo wrote:
It's got an oil cooler. Lines are good and dry - no leaks that I saw.

I tried the oil thing. It pissed out a quart in a little more than a mile.

The leak should be easy to spot at an idle while its cold,.

OP said
Quote :
running funky and hot

so there are other issues


Nick

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81X11

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 11:53 pm

Man Ray, what issues. Really hate to hear about this, especially on your graduation week. Chin up!

-Mike
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Mon May 06, 2013 11:59 pm

81X11 wrote:
Man Ray, what issues. Really hate to hear about this, especially on your graduation week. Chin up!

-Mike

I can say this from experience, some day you will laugh about this.

Tom
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Tue May 07, 2013 1:40 am

I do not like being the bearer of bad news, so I will hope for the easy fix.

It probably is not the seal along the bottom, it would be more likely to be the shaft seal. The front lower seal is not a wear item. The bottom seal is part of the pan gasket, and if it is leaking you have to replace the entire pan gasket. If it is the bottom seal, I would douse it in silicone sealer and reinstall the front cover. Swapping the pan gasket is miserable. You have to unbolt the engine mounts, and jack the engine up, to get the pan out. There are also a couple of quirks in getting it out as well.
You should check it with the engine running. I realize it is a dirty job, but it is better to know exactly what is leaking, than guessing, and replacing parts at random. I vote for the front crank shaft seal.
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Tue May 07, 2013 1:03 pm

IMO, if you're doing the crank seal you may as well take the pan off and do the rest of the gaskets. Kit includes them, and buying an individual seal isn't much cheaper than the whole kit.
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rh96ss



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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Tue May 07, 2013 1:14 pm

Stingroo wrote:
rh96ss wrote:
You could have limped it to my house for help. My calculations of Stuart plus 160 miles north is right around Daytona.

Funny thing is I was going to message you about the crossmember and pipes. Guess off to the scrap pile they go.

Good luck getting the wagon fixed.

I called you. Or at least, the number I had for you. I was even stopped right off your exit. pale

So you were the 904 nmber that called and didn't leave a message while I was under the Impala chenging the diff fluid.

Sorry I didn't call back but Id on't call back if I don't know the number and they don't leave a message.

Good luck with the car.

RH
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s1l1sc



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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Tue May 07, 2013 8:29 pm

Sorry to hear that - hope things get better and you can get it fixed. I have been where you are now - my Grand Prix threw a rod through the engine on the way back from a job interview after i graduated...
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Tue May 07, 2013 11:06 pm

Cadet57 wrote:
IMO, if you're doing the crank seal you may as well take the pan off and do the rest of the gaskets. Kit includes them, and buying an individual seal isn't much cheaper than the whole kit.

If you can avoid replacing the pan gasket, it will save you a LOT of work. The gasket is silicone, and should not have a problem sealing. As I stated earlier, put a little silicone RTV in the corners.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Wed May 08, 2013 1:57 pm

Stingroo wrote:
s1l1sc wrote:
Sorry to hear that - hope things get better and you can get it fixed. I have been where you are now - my Grand Prix threw a rod through the engine on the way back from a job interview after i graduated...

Yikes! That doesn't sound fun at all.


Still waiting to hear if the parts came in. They said call around 3pm and check, but if not - tomorrow for sure.

Parts??

So where's the leak??

nick
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Wed May 08, 2013 4:03 pm

Stingroo wrote:
Leak is coming from the bottom side of the timing cover. I got under the car with a scrub brush and hose and cleaned the entire engine bottom. Started it. Seeped right on down and made a fresh puddle.

pics,.
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convert2diesel



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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Wed May 08, 2013 11:20 pm

Are you sure its not coming from the front crank seal and dripping down?

Bill
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Wed May 08, 2013 11:42 pm

Ray,. i been around cars for a long time,. i have a phd in red neck engineering,.
a doctorate in mcgyverology,.

something just doesn't add up here,.

No pics,.

no further diagnosis,.

No questions,.

but you are buying parts,.

does the pan have a hole in it?

does the timing chain cover have a hole?

gaskets and seals don't just suddenly "BLOW" out,.

especially pan gaskets or timing cover seals,.
they are just splash covers, there's no oil pressure any where there to speak of,.

So,. whats the rest of the story?

nick scratch

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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Wed May 08, 2013 11:54 pm

^^^ yeah?
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Thu May 09, 2013 12:20 am

Stingroo wrote:
I don't know. I saw leaking. That's where I saw it from. Pan doesn't appear to have a hole in it. Cover I can't really see too well, but I see oil on it. So...?

There is no "rest of the story." As far as I can tell, it's leaking there, because that's where the oil is coming from. Am I missing something here?

Well yes you are,..4 quarts of oil,.or more,.

from an as yet, unnamed source,.

Enough of a leak , you decided to get towed,.160 miles?

you stated it lost 1 qt in 1 mile,.

thats is a very obvious leak,. not a dribble,. not a weep,. but a gusher,.
the kind where you can put your head down and look and usually exclaim,. OH,....T!!

So,. the guys that know their way around cars,. are wondering WTF?

So,......?

mebbe quit being coy,. or evasive,. or mebbe just fess up,.

nick
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Thu May 09, 2013 12:48 am

A picture is worth 1000megs of bandwidth,.

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 12:14 am

Why the hostility, guys?
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 12:31 am

how fast were you driving while towing, and in what gear ?
I warped a seal while towing a uhaul 4x8 trailer "faster than recommended." It was a gusher, but it looked like it was coming from the pan. I got stuck in Sauk Center, MN, about 1000 miles from where my departure and destination points. I was sure the timing cover had to come off and was dreading the worst. Since I was stuck between a rock and a hard place, at night, I took the "sure win" and stayed at a local motel. Next day I had it assessed by a local mechanic IOT get a 2nd opinion before tearing into it. He corroborated the warped seal, and recommended a can of Justice Brothers seal restorer and an oil + filter. I couldn't believe it, but fixed the problem. Total cost: under 30$. Dude even vacuumed and washed the car. I bought a spare gallon of oil at walmart, but he laughed and said I wouldn't need it. It never leaked again. I still can't believe it worked. I kept it at 60 for the rest of the way home.
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 12:43 am

Any update Ray?

Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 1:37 pm

I arrived at Rays this moring and he happily claimed that it was NOT the timing cover but the intake as the whole top of the intake was swimming in oil when he pulled the air cleaner off.
Apparently it was running off the top and down the front of the block and along the cover.

I was not able to verify as he was already elbow deep unhooking things to pull it. In a few min hes going to pop it off and well have a looky at whats inside.

On a seperate note that I'm sure will be covered in another thread, both Ray and his Mom were speechless this morning Smile.
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 1:50 pm

Thanks for giving him a hand John!

Tom
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 8:32 pm

Had to leave before the job was done (taking the wifey out for dinner), but the intake and distro were back in, fuel lines, etc hooked up....only forgot the bracket in the back corner by the EGR (DOH!) So he was taking those bolts back out when I left.

Drain the oil (got some coolant in there when popped the intake (even though we drained the system), and hook it back up. Hoping he finishes it tonight.

I'm sunburned....it was hot out today
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 9:18 pm

Good to hear! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sat May 11, 2013 11:40 pm

K,....

the top of the intake was swimming in oil,..

where did it come from?

and why?? scratch

Nick
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 12:05 am

Stingroo wrote:
Gaskets, I assume.... One of them had some damage as well. Hopefully replacing those will fix it.

Which gasket?

if a gasket had damage it would have leaked from the moment it was installed,.

not suddenly on the highway,.

gaskets don't just suddenly get damaged and leak,. its not an everyday unregulated hazard of driving a vehicle,.

If i had to make an internet guess from all the way north here,.

due to the higher RPM of running steady in 3rd gear,. I would guess the drain back holes in the heads couldn't handle the return oil well enough,.

Not sure why you removed the intake,.? after you guys found all the oil,. did you wash things down really good,. and fire it up to visually verify where the leak was coming from?



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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 12:29 am

phantom 309 wrote:
after you guys found all the oil,. did you wash things down really good,. and fire it up to visually verify where the leak was coming from?
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 7:16 pm

Stingroo wrote:
Welp. Worse now.

No, we didn't visually verify it.

Oh,....

Stingroo wrote:
After I set the timing today and buttoned it all up, it ran great. Went to go take it for a drive and now it's making valve noise. Additionally, it's running hot. Way hot.

Seems that you really ought to reach out for direction before you dive in and try to fix stuff,.

valve noises?....or exhaust leaks,.(tick sound)

way hot?

temp wire compromised?,. air bubble, making the gauge read high?

way hot,. did it boil over and puke the coolant?

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 7:40 pm

Man you have to catch a break soon. I was just down this road with my(do I dare say it)1993 Ford van. I tried getting answers off line which just got me more confused.It is hard to get a fix if they are not there. I had 3 different mechanics look at it and each one had a different answer. I narrowed it down to vaccum as crazy as that sounds but vaccum leaks in them make every thing go screwy( Happened to me before). I could not find it so I ended up getting rid of it and getting my wagon. BTW the guy I sold it to knew just what it was .NOT. Any way good luck. It has to be something simple right Question
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 8:00 pm

Stingroo wrote:
I sure hope so.

Ormond Beach, eh? That's where all my trouble started. LOL

So,. its "rattling" "running way hot" "and wont start"


Pull the plug,. its fried,.

Ran it out of oil,. fried the bearings,.

Put a fork in it,.



Nick
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 8:05 pm

Stingroo wrote:
I sure hope so.

Ormond Beach, eh? That's where all my trouble started. LOL
Yea it is my fault for not buying your rims. LOL
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phantom 309

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Age : 107

PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 8:25 pm

Stingroo wrote:
That's the thing though. There was oil in it when I drained it.

Didn't you add the oil?
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toomanytoyz

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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   Sun May 12, 2013 9:10 pm

That's a bummer.

Bearing material is non-magnetic.

Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Roo Wagon Down again   

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Roo Wagon Down again
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