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 Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)

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silverfox103
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silverfox103

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PostSubject: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 7:42 pm

The last couple of days, I have been doing a few odds and ends to the Caprice wagon.  I've had an intermittent check engine light for about 3 years.  I replaced the EGR valve and MAP sensor--------no more check engine light.  The starter has been dragging also for about 3 years, so I decided I would replace that.  This afternoon, I pulled the original starter out.  I have owned RMW's since 1997 and I have never had a starter go.  The Caprice only has 108K and the starter was on it's way out.  I figured I would get one of those Autozone, Corvette lifetime guarantee starters.

I dug out a RMW starter that I had in my stash.  I couldn't believe what I saw.  The Caprice starter was puny compared to the RMW starter.  I measured the diameter of both starters.  The RMW was almost 4" in diameter, while the Caprice was 2 1/2" in diameter.  I've always known there were differences between the two wagons, but I didn't know this.

Think I'll head downstairs and put the extra RMW starter in the Caprice and save myself $120.


Tom


Last edited by silverfox103 on Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sherlock9c1



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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:13 pm

Yeah, but was that starter factory? I've had enough B-bodies to learn that people don't always replace the original starter with another OEM one.
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silverfox103
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silverfox103

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 9:20 pm

Both original, by my records and the original owner, have no mention of a replacement and the patina matches.
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95BRMW

95BRMW

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 10:54 pm

Hmm, 4" diameter sounds like an older TBI starter. If it is indeed original, maybe it was a left over? Was that car an early production?
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:23 pm

95BRMW wrote:
Hmm, 4" diameter sounds like an older TBI starter.  If it is indeed original, maybe it was a left over?  Was that car an early production?
Well maybe that's it Dave. So you're saying the Caprice with the 2 1/2" diameter starter is correct and the 4" one is not from an LT1 wagon? That could be correct as it came from a parts wagon that I had. I just figured the 2 1/2 was a cheezy starter that they put in the Chevy's and they put in a 4" one in the Roadmaster LT1's.

Tom
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OldsSafari



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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSun Nov 10, 2013 11:44 pm

My guess is that the later ones could be a gear reduction starter. They run a smaller motor, but used gear reduction to get the same torque out of it. The benefits are mostly weight reduction, and space savings. I imagine both will do the same job, just one's bigger than the other, the power needed to turn over an LT1 and a 5.7 TBI are around the same, maybe a little more on the LT1 because of compression differences.
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Fred Kiehl

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 1:12 am

The Corvette starters are usually gear reduction starters, and are noticeably smaller.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 4:47 am

i have used the bigger earlier starter a couple of times,. it usually needs the corresponding bolts,.it's also significantly cheaper from the rebuilders,.
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 11:08 am

95BRMW wrote:
Hmm, 4" diameter sounds like an older TBI starter.  If it is indeed original, maybe it was a left over?  Was that car an early production?
Bingo, Dave had it right. I looked under my RMW and verified. The "puny", as I called it, 2 1/2" diameter starter on the Caprice is the correct one. The 4" diameter starter, that I had on my shelf, from a RMW parts car is not the correct one. I assumed the bigger the better..........wrong.

Probably going to do the Autozone Corvette starter, I think it's $119 & core, I have a 20% off code plus free shipping; not to mention the lifetime guarantee. Autozone will be getting the TBI core back, thank you. It will end up costing around $95, it's a no brainer. There is also a starter / alternator shop nearby, but I'm sure it would cost me $75 to get out the door there. Eventually, I'll probably have it rebuilt and keep it as a spare.

Tom
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JaySS
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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 12:33 pm


silverfox103 wrote:
I dug out a RMW starter that I had in my stash.  I couldn't believe what I saw.  The Caprice starter was puny compared to the RMW starter.  I measured the diameter of both starters.  The RMW was almost 4" in diameter, while the Caprice was 2 1/2" in diameter.  I've always known there were differences between the two wagons, but I didn't know this.

Think I'll head downstairs and put the extra RMW starter in the Caprice and save myself $120.
Tom
As you are seeing, the larger starter is not an upgrade. Since there is a shortage of knowledge about the intricacies of GM starters here, here’s some good information:

Information sourced from:
Chevrolet S-10 Truck V-8 Conversion Manual by Mike Knell
(14th Edition - 2001 - JTR Publishing Livermore CA - Pages 3-6 & 3-7)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

- J

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Sprocket

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 3:39 pm

On top of all that there are about 10 different part numbers for very similar starters. I have a whole thread on here about it including the part numbers. The DENSO I bought off of ebay for 85 bucks has been working great for the last 10-12K
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95BRMW

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 7:36 pm

I put the vette one on my 9C1 and love it, well worth the extra cost over the stock LT1 starter. You just gotta loosen the cable mounts and get a little more slack for the cables to reach. Also, when you take the "core" back make sure you find the clerk that knows nothing about cars Smile. You shouldn't have a problem though.
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phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeMon Nov 11, 2013 9:38 pm

As long as the motor starts,. it,s all good,.
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mtrhead79

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeWed Nov 13, 2013 6:45 pm

the vett starter sounds nicer also when it turns the mtr over
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phantom 309

phantom 309

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeThu Nov 14, 2013 12:08 am

mtrhead79 wrote:
the vett starter sounds nicer also when it turns the mtr over
Laughing  well right there,.!! thats the way to go!!
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sherlock9c1



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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeThu Nov 14, 2013 11:27 am

I put a little speaker and MP3 player in and wired it in to the key cylinder so when you turn the key, it plays the sound of a vette starter.
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silverfox103
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silverfox103

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2013 2:18 pm

I had it rebuilt at the rebuilders. It was quick and not expensive. Had it done in an hour; he replaced the drive, brushes, solenoid and greased. He said it was very dry where it should have had grease. $68. Starts like new.

Tom
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phantom 309

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silverfox103 wrote:
I had it rebuilt at the rebuilders.  It was quick and not expensive.  Had it done in an hour; he replaced the drive, brushes, solenoid and greased.  He said it was very dry where it should have had grease.  $68.  Starts like new.

Tom

does it sound good when its cranking?
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2013 4:46 pm

Sounds a lot better than when it was dragging. Doesn't have the vette sound, but doesn't look like a vette either.
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sherlock9c1



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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeFri Nov 15, 2013 5:56 pm

I found a local rebuilder in Syracuse and took ALL my starters and alternators to him. Only had one problem (bad solenoid, out of the box), and he fixed it no problem.
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mtrhead79

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 16, 2013 1:40 pm

tom my original starter had the same problem they said it was dry. must have something to do with the gear reduction. i use to rebuild gm starters  about 25 years ago, before the gear reduction ones were around. am i the only one that notices how a car sounds at start up? i use to have a chrysler with a 360 in it and hated the starter sound on that. it use to sound like crap and i put together a heavy duty cop starter and that sounded alot better.  you all know i have some issues:roll: Rolling Eyes
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silverfox103
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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 16, 2013 2:38 pm

John,

Haven't seen any progress reports for your wagon lately. How's it coming?

Tom
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mtrhead79

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PostSubject: Re: Wagon difference, did you know this? Updated (Found out not the case)   Wagon difference, did you know this?  Updated (Found out not the case) Icon_minitimeSat Nov 16, 2013 5:09 pm

ok but slow i am waiting on some primer to dry as i type. i will post a couple pics ltr tonight or tomorrow
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