!%@#^&%@ Lost a wheel today

Yeah. That's how my day went.

Oh man, that sucks.

What happens? The studs look ok. The lugs just came off?

Yep. No idea. I was driving it all day. Went to a car show in the morning, all was fine. Went and bought some clothes, all was fine. Got off the highway to go to work and I felt it vibrate. When I let off the gas the vibration went away. I decide to turn into the nearest parking lot to check it out. I signal into the turning lane and BOOM.

Wheel flies off, hops the median and hits a Jeep Grand Cherokee in oncoming traffic. I'm REALLY GLAD it didn't hit the Miata that was near him. His headlight was smashed, and his front bumper cover was toasted, but he was able to drive away. I don't remember what the cop said, but basically his insurance should cover it as some sort of "beyond anyone's control" type crap or something like that. No tickets issued, no fault assigned at the scene.

This ruins my day though, because now I can't buy Jim's wheels. I WANTED THOSE I also have decided that I NEED AAA. $130 for a tow is STUPID.

Edit: Oh, and the tire is completely thrashed. 100% loss. It will be covered by road hazard, though.

Bummer, sorry that happened Sting, I hope the rest of your weekend goes better.

Mike

Regarding tow fees:

I'm insured through State Farm. I pay about $2 a year for free towing.

When was the last time that wheel was off/on, and who did it?

sux man. I'll be coming to Jax on Oct. 21, if you need anything from down here. I have an extra full size steel rim if you need one, it's yours for the taking, lmk.

I'd check all the other lug nuts too If I were you.

It was off in May when dad and I did the brakes. It couldn't have been that, could it? That was months ago....

it's always recommended that you check them after a few hundred miles to make sure they aren't backing off. I've found them finger loose before after a month or two.

Yeah.. I guess.

So, Sprocket, I guess I'm interested in two fenders now - LOL

That's a long time for a wheel to wait to come off. Usually, they leave the car the next day.

Stingroo wrote:

Yeah.. I guess.

So, Sprocket, I guess I'm interested in two fenders now - LOL

Get a wheelhouse with the DS fender. It will only cost you about another $6. It looks like you need a new hub/rotor too.

That sucks. I use a torque wrench to re-torque all my lug nuts after a 100 or 200 miles and they all tighten a little bit. So, they do move, or seat better after some miles, because I can always tighten them just a little bit. The fronts usually more than the rears (on wifes fwd car anyway).

Sorry about the damage Ray but you should consider yourself lucky since nobody was hurt.
Just curious Ray do you drive with your radio cranked way up?I see these kids driving around with the volume cranked way up and their windows closed so how could they here anything.If they
have a amp and lots of bass they wont feel anything either.I carry a torque wrench and always retorque the wheels after 100 to 200 miles anytime I have had a wheel off.
Ray those wheels are yours whenever you are ready!
Jim

Ha, no I don't do the radio thing. I WANT a system, but there's so many other things I'd rather have that I don't even pay it any mind.

If only there were a way to get them here sooner without costing an arm and a leg for shipping. I told my mom about the shenanigans and she said "Well you have an excuse to get wheels now." lol

Just need... more... money

Thank God you were going slow. I had a set of wheels almost come off a new camaro back in 1993. A shop put on my snow tires/wheels and did not tighten the lugs. I thought a helicopter was following me!! It was loud, but I did not lose a wheel.

You are fortunate, I almost lost the whole hub. Whoever put the Starship together didn't properly fasten the spindle nut, and the whole spindle slipped off of the inner bearing race. The only reason it did not go further is that it was trapped by the caliper. That was a real mess.

Yikes! That's crazy. No, I definitely got lucky, but it still sucks.

Stingroo wrote:

basically his insurance should cover it as some sort of "beyond anyone's control"

I may as well say it as sit here thinking it, "the most irresponsible statement ever"

I don't know you Sting,but be advised if that jeep owner was me,you are gonna fix my car period.and be grateful thats all I would insist.

The ironic part here is if the roles were reversed all the posts would be how to make the Jeep owner make dam sure your chalk board look like new.

Have some sense,A) you are responsible, B)you are very lucky this wasn't worse.

If I sound harsh,maybe you would like to have been with me last nite removing a man from a car that hit two others as a result of a blown tire.Happy thanksgiving to that family.

Not to pile on Ray, but Lorne is right. We all need to take responsibility for our actions.

lornejay1 wrote:

Stingroo wrote:

basically his insurance should cover it as some sort of "beyond anyone's control"

I may as well say it as sit here thinking it, "the most irresponsible statement ever"

I don't know you Sting,but be advised if that jeep owner was me,you are gonna fix my car period.and be grateful thats all I would insist.

The ironic part here is if the roles were reversed all the posts would be how to make the Jeep owner make dam sure your chalk board look like new.

Stingroo wrote:

I don't remember what the cop said, but basically his insurance should cover it as some sort of "beyond anyone's control" type crap or something like that. No tickets issued, no fault assigned at the scene.

?? How is Sting irresponsible in telling us what the OFFICER said?

wheel must have been vibrating like hell,. i,ve had wheels come loose,. you can feel it front or back,.

Nixk

It started to vibrate when I pulled off the highway, that's when I tried to get to a parking lot. I just didn't make it.

Lorne - The man who hit the tire did stop and we did speak to the officer. It wasn't like I let the tire hit him and just ran away from the car... how was I to do that? I'm aware that I could have checked the lugs before leaving and probably prevented any of this, but let's be honest: do you check and retorque all 20 before you get in the car every morning? I highly doubt it. I know it could have been worse, but fortunately, it wasn't, and both of us were very level-headed in talking, nobody was shouting, and I apologized to the man profusely for inconveniencing his day.


We're okay. No hard feelings between us, nor you and me - I understand what you do and how it probably changes your perception on a LOT of things people say, but rest assured, I'm not trying to make it seem like nothing happened. We both got lucky, and I know that.

Glad you are ok.....man that's scary!

I had a 68 Buick Skylark 4dr hardtop in high school and coming home from school one day my right front wheel fell in.....quite a wake up...was going about 35 and my spindle failed.

You just never know.

Again glad you're ok and hope it gets fixed fast.

-Mike

No need to kick a man when he's down, and everyone can learn something here....

I'm going to check my lug nuts today.

I check my nuts at least once a day.

jayoldschool wrote:

I check my nuts at least once a day.

In your case the loose nut is behind the wheel,.

Isn't it ironic that we're all checking our nuts in the middle of breast awareness month?

Also, I can see the potential in Lorne's opinion, but I'm not on the bandwagon. I think his view is only valid for people who know better and are neglegent. Ray is still learning about cars and there are alot of things, like this, that he shouldn't be expected to know anymore than we'd expect it of our wives to know.

I'd say he'd bare some responsibility if it ever happens again, but there's no way I'm holding him to that standard now.

Bewber wrote:

Isn't it ironic that we're all checking our nuts in the middle of breast awareness month?

Hah.

New rotor and hub are on there. Just waiting for a steel wheel. My cousin's friend who works at a junkyard in GA has one and he pulled in a favor.

Anybody know where I can get a full set of locking lugnuts? Not like the one-lock-per-wheel kind?

Locking lug nuts don't make the wheels stay on any better. In fact, they are harder to get a proper torque on than regular nuts due to the design of how they engage the locking tool. Just use regular acorns, torqued to 100ft-lbs, DRY. No oil, no anti-seize.

jayoldschool wrote:

Just use regular acorns, torqued to 100ft-lbs, DRY. No oil, no anti-seize.

which i disagree with vehemently, you can't properly torque any dry non lubricated threaded rod,.
i always oil my nuts as they tighten up,.

I refuse to listen to some dopey government safety twit,.
the wheel nuts on the big truck are 450-500ftlbs ,. i have had problems with cracking wheels due to incorrect torque on dry threads, after i started oiling threads i never had a crack appear again,. and never had a wheel loosen either,.a dry fastener will get hot and gall,.
don't give me any bull about oily threads causing the nuts to loosen off,.if that were so,. your cylinder heads would loosen off right away, transmissions and rear ends are all oil bathed fasteners,., bolts or studs, they are all soaked in oil ,.when you torque the head of a big diesel,. you need to put a dab of grease under the nuts on the head studs, or they won't torque right and will bind,.
same with the wheel nuts,.
JMHO
IWFM
YRMV
NWEOI
PDCC

Nick

If that wheel is on a race car,I agree about going on completely dry however on a street driven vehicle I have always
used a drop of antiseize on the threads for years.On a street driven vehicle the wheels may go untouched for 2 or 3
years.My brothers recently purchased toyota pickup is a classic example of a lugnut welding itself to the stud.Even
with my snap-on 18volt impact wrench it took a lot of finessing to get the nuts off.
Ray when you put the wheels back on use just a drop of antiseize about the size of a Emoticon on the inside thread
of each lugnut and torque to 100 pounds feet of torque and recheck with a torque wrench every saturday for a month.
Go ahead and buy new metric nuts to use on those new rotors as they are cheap insurance.I know you are sick of
hearing it ,but you are young and learning and you might as well learn the correct way and avoid mistakes down the
road.The correct size for these lugnuts is 12mmX1.5mm and you can get them in size 19 and 21mm.
Jim

You guys can keep oiling or anti-seizing them. GM specs dry, I torque dry. If you use a lubricant, you are NOT getting an accurate torque reading. Oil doesn't cause low torque, it causes higher torque which over stretches the bolt (which is all torque on a fastener is, you can measure the stretch instead of the torque if you like).

jayoldschool wrote:

You guys can keep oiling or anti-seizing them. GM specs dry, I torque dry. If you use a lubricant, you are NOT getting an accurate torque reading. Oil doesn't cause low torque, it causes higher torque which over stretches the bolt (which is all torque on a fastener is, you can measure the stretch instead of the torque if you like).

Bullshit,. a dry thread will give an erroneous reading, dry thread do give a lower reading you're right,..wet threads will give a far more precise reading,.
the over torque as you put it,.?? so anytime you build a motor why do they tell you to oil the threads in the block when torquing head bolts?? why do you think dry threads give a correct torque? a dry nut will gall on the stud,. the stud will twist and that is what will set off the torque wrench,.by adding a film of lubricant you are dealing with a known constant,.. all bolts and studs stretch,. it,s physics, thats what keeps them tight,.
we'll agree to differ,. you read all the bull you like from the internet or your shop teacher,Gm isn't the oracle they deal with liabilities too,. . i'll stick with what i know,.

nick

Flasheroo wrote:

Even with my snap-on...it took a lot of finessing to get the nuts off.

I'm with Nick on this one, especially having grown up in a marine enviornment where even 440 Stainless will rust lke a mother.

I use a drop of oil inside the nut before I put it on, or sometimes I'll have some used motor oil, drop the nuts in it, wipe 'em down and thread them, then wipe the threads with a rag when done.

If it's a rusty thread, I'll run the nut up and down a few times, then spray it off with WD, wipe clean, then a few drops in the nut.
On a boat, then coat with a light film, or marine CRC.

The problem with 100ft lbs and NO oil, is the stock lug wrench is useless, one of those "X" wrenches won't break them free either.
With oil and 100ft puonds they both will work fine. I'm now in the habit on long trips of a 24" long 1/2" breaker bar and a deep impact socket to take my lugs off.

I'm not talking about building a motor where the spec actually calls for an oiled fastener. I am talking about a fastener that the manufacturer specs to be torqued without lubrication. If you lube it, it will be over torqued by about 40%.

Once again, do what you want. I respect everyone's life experience, but the suggestion of the manufacturer and simple physics shouldn't be ignored.

I have used anti-seize for years with out ANY issues. I learned this from my father and he has never had an issue either. I torque to 100 ft lbs. I have never checked them after 100 miles either.

John I too carry a 24"breaker bar and have for years,even before my back problems.Been using
antiseize on all of mine and my families vehicles for at least 35 years.Like I said dry works fine
on a race car but not on a street car with the time measured in years between wheel removal.
Also a lot of replacement wheel studs come already treated with antiseize as well as the lugnuts.
As you said Jay do as you like and this has always worked for me.
IMHO
Jim

FROM TIRE RACK.............................................

**********************************************************************

IMPORTANT!

Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque specifications can be found in your vehicle's owner's manual, shop repair manual or obtained from your vehicle dealer.

Wheel lug torque specifications are for clean threads that are free of dirt, grit, etc. If applying an anti-seize lubricant, it is important to note it can be applied only on the threads of nuts or bolts. The lubricant must not be used on either seat of the hardware of the wheel. With the seat being the main point of friction where torque is measured, extreme caution must be used if an anti-seize lubricant is applied to the threads as excess can either drip or be pushed onto the lug seat resulting in inaccurate torque values.

A thread chaser or tap should be used to remove any burrs or obstructions of the threads allowing the lug hardware to be turned by hand until it meets the wheel's lug seat. Once lugs are snugged down, finish tightening them with an accurate torque wrench. Use the appropriate crisscross sequence (shown below) for the number of wheel lugs on your vehicle until all have reached their proper torque value. Be careful because if you over-torque a wheel, you can strip a lug nut or hub, stretch or break a stud or bolt, and cause the wheel, brake rotor and/or brake drum to distort.



Use the dry wheel lug torque values specified in the vehicle's owner's manual, shop manual or obtained from the vehicle dealer/service provider. The chart below lists typical torque values that should only be used temporarily until the vehicle's exact torque values can be confirmed.

Since the thickness of an alloy wheel can differ from Original Equipment wheels, also verify that the lug nuts or bolts will engage the threads. Refer to the chart below to determine the number of turns or the depth of engagement typical for your stud or bolt size.

Hardware Bolt or
Stud Size Typical Torque Range
in Ft/Lbs Minimum Number of Turns
of Hardware Engagement
12 x 1.5 mm 70 - 80 6.5
12 x 1.25 mm 70 - 80 8
14 x 1.5 mm 85 - 90 7.5
14 x 1.25 mm 85 - 90 9
7/16 in. 70 - 80 8
1/2 in. 75 - 85 8
9/16 in. 135 - 145 8

When installing new wheels you should re-torque the wheel lugs after driving the first 50 to 100 miles in case the clamping loads have changed following the initial installation. This is necessary due to the possibility of metal compression/elongation or thermal stresses affecting the wheels as they are breaking in, as well as to verify the accuracy of the original installation. When rechecking torque value, wait for the wheels to cool to ambient temperature (never torque a hot wheel). Loosen and retighten to value, in sequence. Simply repeat the same torque procedure listed above.

jayoldschool wrote:

I'm not talking about building a motor where the spec actually calls for an oiled fastener. I am talking about a fastener that the manufacturer specs to be torqued without lubrication. If you lube it, it will be over torqued by about 40%.

Once again, do what you want. I respect everyone's life experience, but the suggestion of the manufacturer and simple physics shouldn't be ignored.

you are correct, and I respect your facts,.

after some investigation and talking to a source MUCH smarter than I, Jay is right,. depending on the lubricant used it will over torque , not so sure about the 40%,.i think it,s just under 30% again depending on the lube used,.so the wheel studs will end up being torqued to 130lbs or so, which will put them well into their stretch zone,.if the studs aren't breaking and the wheel isn't coming loose,.then i,d say it,s working,.probably right in the working safety factor of the studs,.
So if it works for you, then it,s all good,.
I was also told that a lubed thread can be torqued more precisely,. a dry thread and a dry fastener tightening up against a dry surface wil definitely tighten down differently if either surface is blemished or contaminated with rust particles etc,.

to arrive at 100ft lbs evenly, the threads should be oiled then the torque lessened by the correct amount for the lube used,.i.e engine oil,. or moly, or graphite etc,.
I dunno the correct formula,. so i'll keep torqueing to 100ftlbs wet,. it works for me,

Nick.





and my way is right way and the only way,..,.

+1 Stick to what works for you personally and I will do the right thing and use antiseize as
Nicks always correct.
Jim

I personally think the 40% figure is high, too. Like Nick said, I would much rather have a lug nut at 130ft-lbs instead of 70!

There was a good video showing all the different torque values on ARP fasteners using oil, anti-seize, and various assembly lubes. It was really interesting to see the different affect on torque (actual vs measured). Unfortunately, I can't find the vid...

I should clarify how I remove and reinstall my lug nuts. Sometimes on the winter cars, I will give them a shot of PB Blaster to help them come off. I then clean the lug and nut with brake cleaner so there is a dry surface to reinstall.

Well, update:

Rotor and hub replaced. Got a steel wheel from my cousin's friend who runs the junkyard here. Straight as an arrow and required very little weight to balance correctly. All told, $70 in parts and $80 for a new tire and I was on my way.

It's good to have the car back.

Ray,recheck your lugnuts please!
Jim

"There are no solutions, only tradeoffs." - Thomas Sowell.

I wonder if that GM spec "dry" means brand new lug nuts on brand new studs. Because that sure isn't the case on my 16-year-old vehicle here in the corrosion capital of the northeast.

I used to torque lugnuts dry until a shop had to torch one off the wagon here in Syracuse last fall. After that, I decided to use lubricant on the threads. Every time I take lugnuts off, I wipe the threads clean and then reapply a small amount of lube to the threads.

After some serious discussion with a local shop, they said the resistance torque you are measuring on your torque wrench ideally should be clamping torque from the wheel face against the lug nut; not friction torque of the threads, which will give you a false low especially here in Syracuse.

For me, I will tradeoff a slight overtorque for the ability to remove lugnuts on the side of the road in a rainstorm or snowstorm without too much fuss.

FWIW, I also threw out my Harbor Freight torque wrenches and bought used Snap-On ones from Ebay. Mine are probably 15-20 years old and they checked out within 2% at a local calibration facility. The harbor freight ones were disturbingly inaccurate in every possible way you can imagine.

I do not have a great TQ wrench either. I need to buy one!! Speaking to the friction on the wheel not the threads, if you read the statement I posted from Tire Rack that is exactly what they say.

I have always carried a cheap HF torque wrench in the wagon but it looks like my MAC is going
in the back.And yes I will compare the torque values of the cheap one against my MAC.
Jim

Anybody know what size socket I'll need to accompany my torque wrench? I just have the jack handle that I use to take them off, and I'm pretty sure it's not printed on there what size it is....

For a good Torque Wrench, look for Precision Instruments. They are owned by Snap On and of course make Wrenches for Snap On. They also make them for the all the other tool truck companies.

The plain jane 3/8 Split Beam wrench is about 120 bucks most anywhere online. Minus the Snap On head it is the same exact wrench.

http://www.amazon.com/Precision-Instruments-PREC2FR100F-Torque-Wrench/dp/B000KL59LY