| Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner | |
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+13mtrhead79 bigbluey88 brokecello Big Wagon Guy silverfox103 200OZ yakko phantom 309 MalibuSSwagon dmg4 Lynol Andebe lakeffect 17 posters |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 9:12 am | |
| I'd like some input concerning having a cruise Saturday night after Wagonfest to a elected spot for dinner. The first palce that came to mind was the truck stop at the Thruway exit 41 on Rt 414 They is plenty of room inside and a few acres of parking.
My nephew happens to be a New York State Trooper, who might be able to arrange some "tour guides" so we can keep the wagon train intact while en-route. what ever we do and wherever we go.
Your thoughts and comments please.
Dave "Wagonmaster" Buchholz | |
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Andebe
Posts : 3323 Join date : 2013-02-20 Age : 55 Location : Centerville, IN
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 9:50 am | |
| Sounds cool to me... | |
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Lynol
Posts : 768 Join date : 2010-06-29 Age : 41 Location : Central New Jersey
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 10:21 am | |
| I'm for it. I have always enjoyed the cruises at all the various wagonfests I've attended. Being in a big wagon train was always fun, even if a certain big orange wagon was making it into a race, lol. | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 6:58 pm | |
| Was that on the track at Watkins Glen, or on those frigging cow paths in Virginia?
Last edited by lakeffect on Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 8:20 pm | |
| The cruise sounds like a great idea. Another potential stop would be Macs in Waterloo. They have car hops.
If you wanted a longer cruise, I could scope out some other dining option in Canandaigua (13 miles), Phelps (8 miles), Seneca Falls ( 5 miles), Penn Yan (15 miles) or Watkins (45 miles). | |
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Lynol
Posts : 768 Join date : 2010-06-29 Age : 41 Location : Central New Jersey
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 9:00 pm | |
| - lakeffect wrote:
- Was that was on the track at Watkins Glen, or on those frigging cow paths in Virginia?
Virginia. News travels far and wide, eh? He was enjoying the sound of the exhaust too much, lol. | |
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MalibuSSwagon
Posts : 580 Join date : 2014-01-12 Location : NH
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 9:30 pm | |
| Macs is pretty good, however if I recall there is limited parking and space for a large group. | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 10:04 pm | |
| Was that the place where Joel (sherlock) got sick from the shrimp? It was at a burger/icecream stand on the South side of Rt 5 that we went to one year after the Glen ride. I don't remember the name.
Dave, (dmg4) being the local guy, Your suggestions would be most welcome. A few thoughts would be the fewer traffic lights/ stop signs the better, and a big parking lot. Also to inquire ahead of time as to handling a large group all at once, so that their staff isn't surprised and over whelmed. | |
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Lynol
Posts : 768 Join date : 2010-06-29 Age : 41 Location : Central New Jersey
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 10:18 pm | |
| - lakeffect wrote:
- Was that the place where Joel (sherlock) got sick from the shrimp? It was at a burger/icecream stand on the South side of Rt 5 that we went to one year after the Glen ride. I don't remember the name.
Yes it was. He ate there Friday and was home sick all Saturday. | |
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phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 10:30 pm | |
| - Lynol wrote:
- lakeffect wrote:
- Was that was on the track at Watkins Glen, or on those frigging cow paths in Virginia?
Virginia. News travels far and wide, eh? He was enjoying the sound of the exhaust too much, lol. who was this,.??? | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 04, 2016 10:58 pm | |
| Mike was in the lead. They were still frigging cow paths regardless though. My wife was white knuckle all the way, and expecting someone to say "U got perty teeth and Burt Reynolds to jump out from behind a tree shoot someone with a bow and arrow. | |
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yakko
Posts : 185 Join date : 2012-03-06 Age : 69 Location : Wappingers Falls, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed May 11, 2016 11:02 pm | |
| It's a good idea. Count me in! | |
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200OZ Moderator
Posts : 1745 Join date : 2009-08-06 Age : 50 Location : Farmington NY.
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue May 24, 2016 7:02 pm | |
| Mac's is a kinda cool place, but the food is not awesome. Even the food in the menu pictures look bad. Sketchy at best. Ask Joel... Poor fella, he missed the entire next day of fun.
Uncle Joe's Pizza in Geneva is really good, but it's busy, and the parking is an issue. Club 86, again in Geneva might be okay. Abigail's in Seneca Falls has history with WF. Not necessarily good history though. The Iron Skillet at the truck stop is a decent choice.
Last edited by 200OZ on Tue May 24, 2016 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total | |
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silverfox103 Moderator
Posts : 3370 Join date : 2008-11-05 Age : 75 Location : Littleton, NH & St. Simons, GA
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue May 24, 2016 7:16 pm | |
| Mac's = Greasy Spoon
It may have been good, about 40 years ago.
Root beer is good, that's about it.
Tom | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:24 pm | |
| I finally had the time for a serious recon mission. Here's where we should go: Bob and Ruth's Vineyard Restaurant in Naples. It's a 29 mile ride to the south of Geneva through Amish farms on good paved state highways (NY 14A and NY 245). It's a leisurely 45 minute drive at most. They have a nice big parking area where we could assemble the pod for a group photo, and to show off the cars. The menu is simple and modestly priced. Most dinners are just under $20 and they include a salad bar. We can get a reservation for as large a group as we like with no down payment. They have a large function room where we could sit together, and there are picnic tables outside. There is a late 1700s historical cemetery beside the picnic area. They'll do a special menu for us if we ask them. The deserts are home made and really good. They also have an ice cream window. For more details and reviews, see: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g48226-d833508-Reviews-Bob_Ruth_s_Vineyard_Restaurant-Naples_Finger_Lakes_New_York.htmlI'll need to provide a time of arrival and an approximate head count. I propose that we depart Geneva at 5PM and plan to take our seats in the restaurant at 6 PM. That would likely get us back on the road by 8PM, and possible back in Geneva by 9PM. We could take a slightly different route on the return and take NY364 to Penn Yan and then NY 14A back to Geneva. It's about the same time and distance. OK, who's in? Count off. | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:28 am | |
| Count me in. It's much better Idea than I had of going to the truckstop.
I 'd say leave the park at 6:00pm
Thanks for the effort Dave. Thanks for stepping up to the (dinner) plate. I really do appreciate it. | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Sun Jun 19, 2016 7:53 am | |
| The restaurant stops serving at 8:00 PM. I'll talk to the owners and see about when they actually turn off the lights.
I like restaurants where all of the waitresses are grandmothers, and they call you "dear". | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:22 am | |
| I like the idea of a different path back as well. | |
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Andebe
Posts : 3323 Join date : 2013-02-20 Age : 55 Location : Centerville, IN
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:10 am | |
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200OZ Moderator
Posts : 1745 Join date : 2009-08-06 Age : 50 Location : Farmington NY.
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:35 am | |
| Bob and Ruth's is pretty good. Seems like a long way to go for... imo, average, to just above average food. It's 32-33 miles from the Park in Geneva. Naples is on the south end of Canandaigua Lake. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad, but I've had mixed experiences there. There is an awesome ice cream place a few more miles down the road from Bob & Ruths. It's homemade ice cream, that might convince me to go to Bob and Ruth's. Most if not all the restaurants that I like in the Canandaigua/Geneva area have lousy parking, and/or are on the small side. A few years ago a few of us went to the Geneva Wegman's for lunch, and while the food was fair to good, the dining area was kinda terrible. I didn't know the Geneva location sucked compared to the Canandaigua location. The Wegman's Market Cafe in Canandaigua is a grocery store, but it's my favorite place to eat in Canandaigua. The atmosphere is much better than the Geneva location. It's more of a buffet style, with separate areas for specialized, made to order food choices. American home style, the burger bar, pizza, subs, Asian, Japaneses, and a wine/beer bar. I think they close at 8:00pm though. Here's a link to the trip advisor review. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g47405-d831397-Reviews-Wegmans_Market_Cafe-Canandaigua_Finger_Lakes_New_York.html#photos;geo=47405&detail=831397&ff=101150824&albumViewMode=hero&albumid=101&baseMediaId=101150824&thumbnailMinWidth=50&cnt=30&offset=-1&filter=7 | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:56 pm | |
| A cruise and dinner was the order of the day. A caravan of whales driving 30 miles is the point of the exercise for me. I think the route to Naples, and return through Penn Yan will be very pretty early evening. Bring a camera.
Food at Bob and Ruth's, as well as the ice cream, is well above average for the cost, and parking is just about ideal for our needs. We can even ask them to cordon off the lower lot for us (minimal risk of door dings). They might even advertise our arrival as an event. I can make up a "Look Don't Touch" sign for the assembled pod.
Four weeks to go. I think we need a Doodle Poll or separate thread to get a head count. | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 7:18 pm | |
| Any other opinions? i agree with mike in the sense that maybe a 30 trip (60round trip) is more than I was anticipating. But I'm willing to go along with the majority or posters here. That is, presumably that we have some. | |
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Big Wagon Guy
Posts : 349 Join date : 2010-02-15 Location : Wasaga Beach Ontario
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 10:13 pm | |
| I would be interested in Bob and Ruth's. (I have no personal experience but it Sounds like an interesting venue)...I think it would be nice to actually travel as a group, take in some sights. No offence to anyone...but I don't want to eat at a grocery store. This could be the last WF NY...let's not be afraid to spend a couple bucks and live a little. I can't speak for the others, but I'm traveling a fair distance, shelling out a couple hundred bucks for a hotel and would like to make the most of it.
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phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 20, 2016 11:17 pm | |
| the last wagonfest?,... pfffft,. there'll always be a core group that shows up. organized or disorganized, in tenet or out of tent,. I like truckstops,... when i need to park the kenworth,. but a 30 mile race to the restaurant sounds like a lotta fun!! last guy in pays the cheque,. first in gets the prime rib,.. | |
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Andebe
Posts : 3323 Join date : 2013-02-20 Age : 55 Location : Centerville, IN
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:07 am | |
| I like the thought of a great wagon highway stampede. | |
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brokecello Moderator
Posts : 3478 Join date : 2009-05-28 Age : 46 Location : Greenville, SC
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:51 pm | |
| A drive would be nice...I've always liked the truck stop buffet and parking lot burnout potential...but going somewhere that takes a bit and cruising is always my favorite.
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phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:21 pm | |
| - brokecello wrote:
A drive would be nice...I've always liked the truck stop buffet and parking lot burnout potential...but going somewhere that takes a bit and cruising is always my favorite. An awesome event would be organizing everybodys' vacation time to coincide,. and a road trip to hollywood california,. stopping in vegas on the way back,. 10-15 wagons and a fleetwood or two would be a lotta fun,.. The Longroof power tour,. | |
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Andebe
Posts : 3323 Join date : 2013-02-20 Age : 55 Location : Centerville, IN
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:28 pm | |
| I like the sound of that! | |
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brokecello Moderator
Posts : 3478 Join date : 2009-05-28 Age : 46 Location : Greenville, SC
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 3:58 pm | |
| That would be epic. As huge as the HotRod Power Tour has become...just a Longroof Power Tour alone would be the bees knees.
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:18 pm | |
| It seems we have a plurality of positive votes for Bob and Ruth's, and a somewhat longer cruise, and no strong dissent. So, here is the head count to date. Add detail if you are bringing guests. If you want to take part, and are not on the list below, sound off now.
1. dmg4 +1 2. lake effect +1 3. Andebe 4. brokecello +1 5. phantom 309 6. Big Wagon Guy 7. yakko +2 8. Lynol 9. 200OZ 10. bigbluey+3 11. mtrhead79 +4 12. BigBlackBeaSSt +1 13. 1993 Roady-man 14. Patches
Last edited by dmg4 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:16 pm; edited 7 times in total | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:38 pm | |
| Additionally, if you are coming to Wagonfest 2016 and have not signed up for it yet, please do so in that thread. | |
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brokecello Moderator
Posts : 3478 Join date : 2009-05-28 Age : 46 Location : Greenville, SC
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:44 am | |
| I'll have one guest joining me!
brokecello +1 | |
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bigbluey88
Posts : 252 Join date : 2013-06-16 Age : 37 Location : windsor locks CT
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:25 pm | |
| Id like to join this bigbluey+3 | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:01 am | |
| Nag-O-Gram: We have 21 wagons signed up for Wagonfest. Ten of those wagons will be taking off for the Saturday Night Cruise, followed by dinner at Bob and Ruth's in Naples NY. It will be fun. If you are interested, sign up now. | |
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mtrhead79
Posts : 1614 Join date : 2010-04-24 Age : 55 Location : phila. pa
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:07 pm | |
| id be in for the cruise and bob and ruths totalfor my party is 5 people
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:51 am | |
| I will most likely have My wife along, so count me as two in total.
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BigBlackBeaSSt
Posts : 4560 Join date : 2009-08-01 Age : 59 Location : Sanford, NC
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:35 am | |
| Count me it for the cruise +1.
Another suggestion (sorry I am late to the table) would be to go down 5&20 to Canandaigua and have dinner at Charlies. We could put the wagons on the pier at the late and get some great photos.
And I am a little offended Dave and Lynol, what about the cruise through Harrisburg/Hershey with the smoke rolling off the sideways CTS-V tires half way across the bridge! And Burt Reynolds was at least one state away (WV). | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:02 am | |
| He meant the other Dave. To me, the best cruise would be the one with the least amount of signals that woulds otherwise bust up the group. | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:34 pm | |
| We presently have 12 cars and 21 people headed for Bob and Ruth's in Naples, NY. Routing will involve NO lights after we leave Geneva (NY 14A South to NY 245 South).
Any others want to join the fun? Good food, relatively cheap, ice cream, big parking area, a picnic grove and a graveyard. What could be better? | |
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1993 Roady-man
Posts : 2126 Join date : 2009-05-26 Age : 57 Location : Hogansburg, Ny 13655
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:26 pm | |
| Put Lee and Myself down. So 2 more wagons 1 driver each Her username is "Patches" | |
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Andebe
Posts : 3323 Join date : 2013-02-20 Age : 55 Location : Centerville, IN
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:34 pm | |
| - 1993 Roady-man wrote:
- Put Lee and Myself down. So 2 more wagons 1 driver each Her username is "Patches"
Im depending on you...its all left up to you. | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:41 pm | |
| 14 cars, 23 people.
Pile on! | |
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yakko
Posts : 185 Join date : 2012-03-06 Age : 69 Location : Wappingers Falls, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:14 pm | |
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yakko
Posts : 185 Join date : 2012-03-06 Age : 69 Location : Wappingers Falls, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:18 pm | |
| I think we should leave the park around 5:00PM Dave. | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:10 pm | |
| For those of you that have already signed on, as well as an incentive for the various slackers, hangers-on, truants, and laggards: dinner options would include salmon filet ($16.95), prime rib ($20.95), chicken or turkey dinner ($15.95), or duck ($20.95). Vegetarian option is pasta with marinara sauce and veggies ($15.95). All include a salad bar. Desserts are extra and very, very good (Black Forest cake, Boston creme pie, carrot cake, coconut creme pie, and more).
There is also a kids dinner menu for $10 (chicken fingers and such), plus the salad bar.
We'll have the lower parking lot to ourselves, so we can circle the wagons and avoid door dings and droolers.
I'll need to provide an approximate head count and entree choices by the 18th. This won't be written in stone, but in fairness to the owners, we won't want to ask for 22 ducks and then change to all prime rib on Saturday night. So, your best guess on what you'd like to will be needed by the 18th. | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:05 pm | |
| 2 prime ribs for slacker Dave and laggard wife Janet. (That's MISTER slacker to the rest of you!) | |
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phantom 309
Posts : 5848 Join date : 2008-12-28 Age : 114
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:46 pm | |
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lakeffect
Posts : 3892 Join date : 2009-08-18 Location : Rochester NY 14621
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Tue Jul 05, 2016 10:39 pm | |
| Is that a Metric or SAE "wtf" hotdog? | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:07 am | |
| - Quote :
- no....dogs, wtf??????
WTF dog? I think I have exactly what you're looking for. I'll bring my neighbor's Rottweiler. You'll be his new boyfriend. | |
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dmg4 Moderator
Posts : 1125 Join date : 2014-08-13 Age : 70 Location : Geneva, New York
| Subject: Re: Wagonfest 2016 Saturday night Cruise and Dinner Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:53 am | |
| Saturday night cruise and dinner list for Bob and Ruth's in Naples, cut and pasted from above to make it easier to find for now. Here are the latest attending numbers, and dinner preferences. I'll add detail as I get it from you. Sound off.
1. dmg4 +1 (1 prime rib, 1 chicken) 2. lake effect +1 (2 prime rib) 3. Andebe 4. brokecello (1 prime rib) 5. phantom 309 +2 (1 prime rib, 1 salmon, 1 chicken) 6. Big Wagon Guy 7. yakko +2 8. Lynol 9. 200OZ (1 prime rib) 10. bigbluey88 +3 (2 prime rib, 2 chicken kiddie meals) 11. mtrhead79 +4 12. BigBlackBeaSSt +1 13. 1993 Roady-man 14. Patches 15. 95BRMW (1 prime rib)
Last edited by dmg4 on Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:53 pm; edited 7 times in total | |
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