Engine Build Idea/T56 Swap Plan--Feedback Requested

This might be long winded, so you might want to skip to the end....So, I've been daily driving the hell out of my wagon. I love it, it runs and sounds great. Looks cool with flames...but it's so slooooow. My stock diesel 1-ton is faster (much faster) then this big ole wagon. So I think I have a plan to get my fix in. The car has around 204K miles on it and consequently the trans is getting tired even if the motor is working well.

I was planning on rebuilding the trans when it let go if not sooner and addressing the tired motor then. But I found a site that specializes in making a turn key 6 speed manual transmission conversions. Three Pedals is the company. My new plan is to convert to a T56 while keeping the factory look and lack of quirks to a minimum. With a T56, the car can have a lot more power and reliability put it down. The kits are pricey. They include everything except the trans. Clutch/brake pedal bracket, master, new driveline, 4.11 gears, switches, tuning and wiring.

I was considering doing the LSx swap to put in front of the T56, but in the theme of keeping the car free of quirks and stock appearance (I even replaced the tape deck with a NEW OEM deck), I think keeping an LT series motor would be the simplest solution and best bet. I could keep everything factory hooked up such as the A/C and computer. So here's a plan, and feedback is appreciated.

Start with a F-body LT1 and T56, replace pistons and rods, port and polish the heads, install a hotter hydraulic roller cam, springs, 1.6 roller rockers, matching injectors (I have rebuilt stock Vette injectors, not sure if they'd work), and maybe a throttle body. I have a new and proven OEM Opti that would go on it too. I'd prefer to keep the giant stock intake cover, but worst case scenario, make it look stock from an F-body or Vette. I'd be looking for 450-500 HP at the crank, but would settle for less if reliability is the tradeoff. I need advice on what pistons and cam to get. And if the heads actually need anything or what.

Going this route I'd have to keep this car because there's no way I'll be able to sell it for anywhere near what kind of money this will cost. I've build a hot rod small block S-10 before that was close to perfect, but wasted so much money on it . If I could do this wagon plan for $10k or less, I'd be happy.

Thoughts on this idea (or scheme...or dream )? LS ideas are ok too. Validation is also welcomed   Thanks!

Sam

The kit does not sound too "turnkey" to me. It sounds like you will be buying most of the stuff outside of the kit.

No matter what, if you make changes to the cam, trans, and other accessories, you will need to have the computer reprogrammed.

I put a cammed 454 in my 91 OCC, and use a built-up 4L60 for a trans. The interior has some changes, but the column shift is still the stock one. I built the engine for about $6500, and the trans with converter cost me about $2000. I installed it myself. I had the engine bored, and could have saved about $1000 had I not done that. That price included a Holley fuel injection system that I bought for about half price. It took me a year and a half to get all of the bugs worked out, and I finally have a monster on my hands. It is loud and fast.

I am going to build a rear for it this spring. With cash in short supply, I have been collecting parts, for about a year, and only need the axles and bearings to be able to put it together. I have about $700 in parts, including the donor rear.

If you go the way of the LS, and you get a low mileage one, you can use it as is. The only thing you could do is re-ring it, and have the heads checked/redone. You can put a hot cam in it, and the engine should stay together. The cost of referbing an LT1 would cost you about the same, and you do not get the LS upgrade. As far as keeping it stock looking, the only time anyone would notice is if you lifted the hood. Do not forget to get a torque converter that corresponds with the cam. Circle D makes a good torque converter.

If you are going stick, you will have a floppy collar on the column, and the PRNDD21 will still be on your cluster. You also need something with a shift pattern on it, to give you a hint as to what gear you are in.

500hp LT1 and $10k don't really go hand in hand if you're talking NA.

Heads and cam from AI(advanced induction) will cost you close to the 5000 mark . Some of the guys on the Impala forum have used them with great results .

Oh. He said "at the crank"

A good AI heads/cam setup will get you solidly in the 4s then. But you will definitely need to find a set of aluminum heads to send out for port work.

RedandBlack wrote:

Oh. He said "at the crank"

A good AI heads/cam setup will get you solidly in the 4s then. But you will definitely need to find a set of aluminum heads to send out for port work.

My bad I missed that , but you are correct sir .

Maybe I would be asking for too much at the crank. I was thinking about buying a used F body LT1 with the T56. Put it in a stand to build it. Stop the stock heads and send them off for porting. Then rebuild them with stiffer springs and roller rockers. All the ignition parts on my wagon are brand new, so I’d swap that stuff over. I think I’d run stock manifolds, so that’ll prob hurt HP a lot.

I’ll never buy a ‘built’ trans again. I gernaded a Jet 700R4 that was good for 500hp, or so they claimed. Nothing inside it was special. Even had stock clutches. I should have opted for a manual when I did the V8 swap in my S10.

I’m about to get a Z28 cluster. No shift indicator, so that’ll be cool for the manual trans. I’m researching compatible columns that don’t have shifters in them now too.

LS motors are cool, but I would want a hot one or an LQ9 I think so I wouldn’t need to fool around with a buiild. I’ve dealt with major wiring projects, so that’s not an issue, but accessories could be. If they’re not reverse cooling, maybe the heater core would stop getting backed up.

Maybe I won’t add up the costs. I’d do all the work in my self except for the porting of the heads.

Accessories are really easy for an LS B-body. You can get fancy and buy billet brackets for a few hundred or use stock LS truck PS pump and alt bracket for the one side, buy an AC bracket for the other, and call it a day.

If you build an LT1, you can find aluminum heads for a few hundred bucks pretty easily then send 'em out for port work, too. In fact, I might have a buddy who has a set laying in his storage.

Good info. I appreciate it. I just read another thread a couple down from mine about engine swaps. I've always wanted a big block, but in the theme of saving time, I'm sticking with something that has 5.7L of displacement. Time is the biggest thing, when I do pull the trigger, I want to do it fast. When I did my S-10, it took me about 3.5 months. I did it over a period of 3 years though coming home on leave from overseas assignments. It was so much fun working on that project. I could of done it much faster if I wasn't busy doing single guy things.

Finding a used T56 will be the challenge, so whatever I can get that it's connected to will be the new motor. Camaros and Firebirds came with 2 bolt main blocks with aluminum heads. So thinking about it, an LS1 sounds like a good deal. Easy to make power out of them too. Getting all the electrical stuff to work properly would take time, like the cruise control, gauges and such. I've done it before though.

If I had used a gen IV block my BBC build probably would have taken a lot less time. I spent most of my time chasing parts and waiting for them to be delivered. I would also use an "old school" name brand set of aluminum heads. I also spent a lot of time trying to figure out the easiest way to accomplish some things. My install was done without any help either technically or physically. Once I had the engine built, it only took about 3 days to get it in. There were a few glitches, but I put a huge engine in the engine bay. There are some good transmissions out there, but you are going to have to pay for the good parts. You can get built transmissions from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They have a variety of builds, from stock to ultra high performance, but the prices are a little steep. I had mine built locally, and they were supposed to make it handle around 500 HP. So far it has held up. I do not pound on it constantly, but have given it a few 0-60 runs.

I don't approve of your plan of doing heads/cam and keeping the stock manifolds.

The stock manifolds may not fit the B-body anyway. Even shorty headers would result in getting more HP from the setup. You must also make a hump in the trans crossmember for dual exhaust. I did it the easy way, added a hump (cut from another JY crossmember) on the top, then cut the bottom out, and sealed the ends of the tube. No warping or alignment issues, and you do not have to do it on the car.

Can you post up a pic of your wagon's SPID code with all of the 3-digit options?

Long tubes might be cool if they’re available. Quality shortys seem hard to come by now. What is the big block setup have? The car already has dual all the way back. There’s no room for an H or X pipe. The manual trans kit I’m looking at has a purpose fab’d cross member which is kind of cool.

Don’t bother keeping stock manifolds with a hotter motor though, check. Message received.

I have modified shorty headers on my BBC. There are good, easy to install with no modifications shortys for the BBC oval port heads. Mine are rectangular port heads, and the headers I have are the only ones that have the proper port shape. If you decide to use a BBC, get the oval ports, and the headers that will fit the 72 Chevelle (and a few other years) will bolt in perfectly. I have a set I would sell, because they do not fit my heads. I may have a set of headers made to fit the same place as those, when I can afford them (big bucks for custom headers). You should be able to get long tube headers for the same car, and they should fit just as well. Headers for a BBC require the use of a small starter, because the headers take up a lot of space.

Don't buy a kit. Buy the F2B bracket, buy a used trans (or rebuilt, or new) and install it. Get your gears changed locally.

I would never build an LT1 these days from the ground up. Add parts to one I have, yep. Change engines? LS/LQ time.

Headers. You need them.

^ Basically all of this.

The Three Pedals kit is cool. Really cool.

But also really really reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally expensive.

F2B Bracket - $450
F-body pedals from skunkyard - $30 maybe?

Brandt51 wrote:

Don’t bother keeping stock manifolds with a hotter motor though, check. Message received.

You'll be happier with a full bolt-on car than a choked-up heads cam car.

Also, projects are fun but I'm not sure your plan of spending $10k on a 206k mile car is the wisest. You could buy a built wagon for less than that amount of money. There was one on ISSF not too long ago with a t56. Not sure if it sold or not.

Does your SPID sticker have GM8 on it? If so, then I think that's 90% of your problem.

The other 10% is that these cars are slow, but look cool and can be made to be decently fast.

Gears can be changed.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Can you post up a pic of your wagon's SPID code with all of the 3-digit options?

Missed this, sorry, you need a picture to help pop out. Here's the link to my RPOs. I think it has every option except for wood delete and a cd player.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

jasonlachapelle wrote:

Brandt51 wrote:

Don’t bother keeping stock manifolds with a hotter motor though, check. Message received.

You'll be happier with a full bolt-on car than a choked-up heads cam car.

Also, projects are fun but I'm not sure your plan of spending $10k on a 206k mile car is the wisest.  You could buy a built wagon for less than that amount of money.  There was one on ISSF not too long ago with a t56.  Not sure if it sold or not.

Well, it only has 204k miles, so we're good right? Just kidding. I could buy a built wagon, but I don't want to inherit somebody else's possible hack job and rather do it myself to satisfy my ego. Plus it'll be mine. Right now I have about $5-6k into this $950 Craigslist wagon, but besides the wheels, wrap and tint, the money was spent on the tune up, suspension refresh (including getting the factory air ride working again, which now I think sucks) and fix a lot of the minor things that weren't working. It would have been a lot less, but I was still in a wheel chair and paid my neighbor to replace the Opti, timing chain and all the ignition parts. I got a smoking deal to have the whole exhaust system replaced too with Magna flow mufflers and high flow cats in 2.5 inches.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Does your SPID sticker have GM8 on it?  If so, then I think that's 90% of your problem.

It's got GW9, really tall 2.93s. I'm guessing your were curious about that earlier? But yeah, those would prob help on road trips. Three Pedals recommended 4.11s with the 6 speed. That might be pretty good with the 2 overdrives.

4.11 or 4.56 is great with the T56.

Right now, this all a pipe dream while I piece together information on which way to go. What would be the most ideal thing is an LB7 Duramax with a T56, but that's not going to happen.....

So what I gather is be weary of throwing money at an LT1 when an LS motors are easily available, much better and make power easier (and probably won't clog up the heater core). And use headers. I'll start looking into this LS and if they can be set up where the computer and auto climate AC still works like it came from the factory, that would be legit. One of my buddies put an LQ9 into his Impala SS and he seems to like it.

I'm also going to look into a big block (Mark IV). That might be the set up with a T56. I've never had one, but I've always wanted one and that would be really unique with a B-body. Plus Fred did it and you seem like a great source of information (and inspiration) too. A big-block with a manual would probably net me in trouble, but that's the name of the game. Oh, any pics available of your motor Fred? I think I saw a thread of yours somewhere, but the photo bucket pics didn't display.

While doing this, I think it'll be time to put discs on the rear, yay, more money. But while recovering from an accident, I'm not road racing and consequently, not spending nearly as much as I usually do, so that helps. I don't want to be silly though, but nothing beats a bad ass daily driver.

I'm about to start renovations on my garage, sealing up the floor, adding cabinets and a work benches, but best of all; air conditioning, what a luxury! Needed for folks that work on stuff in there garage, motorcycles usually for me, but now when that's finished, it'll be this wagon.

I seem to have used all my allotted file space. I can send you pics via email: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If you are going to go with a BBC, get a low rise 4V intake manifold, and use a new style TBI (depending on the cam, 400hp~750-600HP~1000CFM). I was told that mine requires about 850 cfm. I have a Holley MPFI system, and I have to make a hood for intake clearance (I could buy one, but I do not like the ones available). Currently the car has a make due hood bump that looks like a dinosaur turd. You must match your air filter to the maximum CFM as well. Another piece of simplicity that comes with the low rise manifold is that the throttle, trans, and CC linkage should bolt up just like factory. I had to make a custom bracket.

The one thing I did, was to ream out the hole for the distributor to fit the stock LO5 distributor, because a stock standard distributor is too tall to fit under the cowl. If you use a crank sensor, and LS style individual coils, it will be easier to work on. I must remove the entire intake manifold to remove the distributor, and I must remove the passenger's side fuel rail to replace the distributor cap. With a new style TBI, and individual coils, you would remove those two PITA jobs.

Stick with the stock rockers, or maybe roller tip SS rockers and stock valve covers. You should not have to do any body work with that combination. I would also suggest that remove the front of the car, and install the engine and trans as a unit. The bolts for the trans to engine are difficult to get to if you install the engine and trans separately.

At one point I was strongly considering a repower of my wagon. Honestly the best deal I could find was an engine/trans out of a newer Chevy work van. 6.xL (L96 I think), 6-speed automatic, just swap the whole thing in as one piece and retain the computer(s) that ran it in the van to save tuning hassle. The 6-speed auto will give you a better first gear ratio and therefore eliminate the need to mess with the rear axle like you would with a T56 conversion. Grab the aluminum driveshaft (if it's not bent) and have it shortened. You'll get great drivability and an easy-to-repair powertrain.

Swaps like this always take twice as long and twice as much as you planned (or more). Starting with this powertrain would save you a lot of money.

While I love my wagon and it has 200k on it and I’m going to dump some money in it. I won’t go all out with an expensive power train swap. Too much time and money for a car that isn’t going to do anything but take me to work and hit the occasional show/gathering. If more power was a concern I would spend the money on one of the many Magnum RTs around the country for under 10k with less than 100k on the clock.

That said, go all out and use an LT1.......the current one that is. Guy over at ISSF put one in his RMS. Everyone and their mother does an LS swap. They are boring and played out. Take Fred’s cue and dare to be different

Email sent!

Yeah, I've done a swap on an S-10, it was awesome, but I let it go. I've done cams on Ducatis and even a bore kit too. That was cool and wasn't an actual kit either, I pieced it together with off the shelf and OEM parts, that I'm hanging on to. It's just money though. I hate it, so I get rid of it as fast as I can.

It's either making this wagon faster and unique or getting a BMW M5...that would be cool but the whole 'built not bought' ego thing gets me. I'll might end up doing both plans anyways.

Interesting info on the Van motor too. When/if the time comes, I'll update this thread and probably start another.

My 94 S-10 build was bad ass, I finished in 2005. ZZ4 crate motor, 700R4, custom driveline, Currie 9" with disc brakes. The motor had Fast Burn heads, Demon carb, MSD billet distributer, gear drive and a steel braided fuel lines, plus nitrous that I never had the chance to use. The truck was clean with 17" Centerlines, hotchkis springs, PST bushings and a OEMish looking interior. Fun and fast truck. If I do the Buick, it'll be better than what I did with the S-10. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There's a 2004 van with 6 litre and 4 l80e close to me it has 140,000 miles on it only 1200 loonies

That's a good deal. Damn good deal. $965 US.

I’m still working out the bugs on my t56 swap behind a stock 94 LT1 the 4.10s turned it into another car. My 2cents: Swap the trans and just get a tune on the stock LT1 and then go from there. Only 22 bolts and the. Motor is out...

Thanks again for the pics Fred.

I think I want to avoid the hassle of an LS conversion while attempting to keep cruise control and smog legality....but for a big block I could reconsider.

The 410s make it a lot peppier than the super tall original set? That's good news.

4.10s and a T56 are like you dropped 1000lbs from the car.

Stock lt1 and T56 works well,
Imo 4:10's are too tall,. Might as well have a 5 spd in there,.
Everybody is comfy with 3:73's and auto,. A t56 is way more gear. In fact 4:88's and T56 still rev less than 3:73 and auto.
If i was to build another heavy b-body and T56, i personally will use 5:13's.

Welp, my plans got trashed when I blew the 4L60E while my truck was in the shop. Out of necessity and being in a rush, I got a built up replacement automatic done. So because of dropping a couple grand into that adventure, I'm keeping with an auto for now. But all is not lost.

I picked up a a set of 3.73s and fresh posi unit + a used LT1 with aluminum heads to build up, so after its all said and done, the car will be a decent mover. The heads will find their way to LE in due time while the motor gets done up at the machine shop. So my next dilemma is if I want the shop to produce a rotating assembly, or do I want to put it back together as my first foray doing bottom end work on something with more than 2 cylinders.Whatever the final outcome is, it's going to get beat on at the drag strip.