Weird Cutlass

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/A-CA-1-OWNER-5-7L-350-ULTRA-RARE-50K-COUPE-1-OF-APPX-20-/260873937361?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item3cbd4c61d1 check out the engine, trans and seats.

Is this the ad I sent you last week Mike?
Jim

I like it, a nice time capsule

Car is listed on their lot for $10,890,. no build sheet,. so i question the 5 spd,.People add transmissions to cars all the time,. ,.. imagine in the year 2025, some one rolling out a roadmaster wagon with a 6 spd in it,. with no spid label etc,. it MIGHT pass as a factory conversion,. gerry's ls7 car might definitely pass as a gm 1 off,. his even has the correct spid label,. although record keeping is far more advanced today than it was 20-30 years ago,. i could see in my minds eye, a guy with a doggy 260v8 diesel cutlas,. swapping it out for a 5.7,. (lots of them around with goodwrench stickers on) then in 89 finding a complete 5 spd setup from a 260v8 gasser 442, and just swapping everything over,.easy bolt in stuff,.

car is cool,. i would be very interested in this car, if it had air,.and was priced a little more reasonably ,.
about 50% of asking,..

Nick

there are sites where it's vin number can be decoded vin#3R47P9M588229

other than the engine the car seems original, and in 79 the olds cutlass was the only G body that was available with a 5 speed. I thought it was only available with the 442 package and only behind the smaller V8s and V6s, but I could be wrong. however the location of the shifer in this car seems a bit far to the right when compared to other G body's manual shifter locations of the time.

Nick if you want a nice clean G body with a factory manual 4 speed, near the price range you quoted, one of our more quiet forum memeber from Parkhill Ontario has a very clean 1980 Malibu Classic sport coupe two tone claret and dark claret with a dark claret interior, factory buckets, factory tinted glass, coloured keyed seat belts and floor mats, Manual shift console, full gage instrumentation tach/clock oil temp and volt gages it's very clean inside and out, originally a manitoba car stored winters, so No rust!
the bad is the dash is cracked, and being a manitoba car it's A/C delete it has a strong original 4 bbl 305 with recent stainless duals

too bad compnine isn't around anymore......

I had a 79 with a 260 in it. Same exact interior aside from the tranny (had an auto).
I don't think that was a factory color nor that the hubcabs OE.... Cutlass hubcaps I've ever seen covered the whole wheel and had a body color insert around the edge....with black wheels under.

It may well be a unicorn but doubt it's 100% stock.

Wow... That thing is pretty awesome.

did some vin checking,

it is a cutlass supreme, so some trim is missing, I'm not entirely sure but I think that in 79 all supremes came with vinyl tops full wheel covers.
it did come with the 4.3L deisel but the vin info I found did not mention trans information.
I doubt it's a unicorn, more like a rare cutlass supreme that some fool stripped down thinking they were making it "more" special

still a nice car but not worth the money, at most it's only worth it's original sticker price.

I kinda think it's original. Have seen basic Cutlass models with dog dish caps and not landau tops. I know the 5-spd was optional and the shifter looks exactly like the setup in late 70's El Caminos. The fact that it has the nicer buckets and cloth is a little shocking considering it's such a low option car....you think it'd be a vinyl bench....but maybe the buckets came with the stick option....

No tilt, no power windows or locks, base gauges and steering wheel, no a/c, that is really an oddball!

-Mike

Mike, the shifter in this cutlass is too far to the right to be exactly like those in elcaminos from the late 70's. This cutlass's shifter is centered over the transmission, it's shifter bezel seems to be kinda floating and not flush to the transmission hump.

That don't mean that it's not correct since the olds five speeds where different in many ways than those used in elcaminos and malibu of the same vintage



where as the normal location of the shifter on G bodys of the era was off to the left of the transmission hump with it's bezel tight to the floor.





Also those olds dog dish caps are from 1967





the vin and the interior shows this was indeed a supreme and not a base cutlass, keep in mind that in 79 there were no options groups, the buyer picked out each and every option. Being both a deisel and a manual trans car it must have been a customer's special order it's doubtfull that this was ordered in by a dealer to fill the lot, cause it would have sat on the lot a long time back then.

buickestate wrote:

Nick if you want a nice clean G body with a factory manual 4 speed, near the price range you quoted, one of our more quiet forum memeber from Parkhill Ontario has a very clean 1980 Malibu Classic sport coupe two tone claret and dark claret with a dark claret interior, factory buckets, factory tinted glass, coloured keyed seat belts and floor mats, Manual shift console, full gage instrumentation tach/clock oil temp and volt gages it's very clean inside and out, originally a manitoba car stored winters, so No rust!
the bad is the dash is cracked, and being a manitoba car it's A/C delete it has a strong original 4 bbl 305 with recent stainless duals

Sounds like a pretty nice car,. cept the 305 and no air,.be good for a LQ9 T56 swap,. now if it were a dizzle and air,.who's car is it?

The heater box is broke on the blue car,. why?? maybe someone was careless when they swung that dizzle in there?? I,m pretty sure all cutlass's were supremes' in 79,.and yes the car is a P code car,.

Only thing better would be a 5.7 dizzle 5spd el camino,. then i,d be on it like white on rice,.
Nick

You may be right about the shifter. Kinda surprised someone would go to the trouble to put the 5spd in there, but it might be owner-added.

As for the dog-dish caps, I'd thought they used those all through the 70's with little changes. Had a friend growing up who's parents had one of the ugly Cutlass "aeroback" sedans that I'd swear had these caps...but maybe his Dad added them....or I'm getting senile.

-Mike

phantom 309 wrote:

The heater box is broke on the blue car,. why?? maybe someone was careless when they swung that dizzle in there?? I,m pretty sure all cutlass's were supremes' in 79,.and yes the car is a P code car,.

Only thing better would be a 5.7 dizzle 5spd el camino,. then i,d be on it like white on rice,.
Nick

i thought that too about the heater box until i guessed it was a heat shield much like the 78 elky i had had on the side of the ac suitcase

Dont know what the rearend ratio is but with a diesels limited RPMs range,a 5spd makes a lot of
sense.Dont know if 5th is a overdrive but probably pretty close.
Jim

Flasheroo wrote:

Dont know what the rearend ratio is but with a diesels limited RPMs range,a 5spd makes a lot of
sense.Dont know if 5th is a overdrive but probably pretty close.
Jim

Yep it's an overdrive 5th Jim.




This is a twin of my friend's parents car from when I was growing up....except their car was light yellow....had tan vinyl seats and I HATED riding in it because the a/c was broken and the rear windows didn't roll down....dumb!

Did some reading on these diesels. Car and Driver did a 1979 road test of the new 4.3 diesel in a Cutlass and called it smooth but "totally unacceptable" in it's performace. It was so slow it could not keep up with the other cars in the test in traffic and lost speed at the slightest incline in the road.

Also found this: 4.3l Diesel V8
In 1979, Oldsmobile introduced a 4.3l 260ci Diesel V8 for intermediate Oldsmobile cars only, basicly a Cutlass engine..There was even a 5spd manual transmission as the standard. The Economy was about 4 MPG better than the same car with the 5.7. The engine acutally is exact to the 350 D Block with the exception of the 3.5" bores, there for, all aftermarket modifications I have listed for the 5.7s, also apply to the 4.3 V8. These engines where discontinued for the 1981 year as it was the 5.7 or no Diesel at all and the 4.3 V6 took over the Intermediate Diesel car role as well as FWD cars starting in 1982. These are pretty hard to find today, as they where never remanufactured like the other Olds Diesels where..if the 260 broke under warantee, a 350 went in its place...Even on the Manual Transmission cars!

http://www.olds-diesel.com/

These just sound SO WRONG in these cars..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlFQW5eMOew

The 307 in my '89 Custom Cruiser may have been gutless but at idle you could hardly hear it running.

Just wrong....

-Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2yNNCX6zsw&feature=related - Man you can sure hear it inside when driving. I kept waiting for the engine to lock up....

I just don't get it. Fail. Ha!

-Mike

81X11 wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2yNNCX6zsw&feature=related - Man you can sure hear it inside when driving. I kept waiting for the engine to lock up....

I just don't get it. Fail. Ha!

-Mike

Jeebus. Was he starting an old GP-9 locomotive?

After 81, GM came out with the "DX" block 5.7 and they seemed to stay together better. Roller cam, heavier bottom end etc. Probably because they knocked back the power from 120 HP down to 105. Still had head problems but that was easily fixed (copper gaskets, fire rings and ARP studs). At one point I had 12 of these engines in various states of assembly sitting on my garage floor, trying to get them to be reliable and powerful. For these engines the two terms were mutually exclusive.

After 20 years finally gave up and switched to the 6.2. It was like holding your hand on a hot burner....it feels sooo good when you take it away. Never could get the 6.2/6.5 to achieve the same fuel mileage though, but it was far and away a better engine.

You learn something new everyday. Never knew the Olds was available with a standard tranny. Wish I had known. Would have been handy on a Jeep CJ7 conversion I did. Ended up getting a gasser flywheel rebalanced (off set weights) and a bellhousing from an old 4-4-2.

By the way, that diesel rattle is actually music to my ears. Still have a soft spot for these engines, dispite the grief they caused. 40MPG (33.5 in US girlie gallons) in an 85 Fleetwood Brougham. Who needs a hybrid when you can get that kind of mileage in a square boat that is at least comfortable to drive.

Bill

Bill did you ever have one of those 4.3 V8 diesels, or were they all dead when you got into these engines?

Initially got into the Olds diesel in 82 with an 81 Caprice wagon. Originally the car didn't have the DX block so ended up going through two warrantee engines before we got one that lasted longer than 5 months. One of those situations where you really like the design but wish the accountants would get out of the way when they were manufactured.

To answer your question, yes. Had a few of the 4.3s and a few V6s apart. Actually the baby V8 and the V6s were much better from a reliablity point of view but that was probably due to the low power output. Anyways in a big V8 world, and 5,000 lb cars, the lack of HP really killed them. The 5.7 was no asphalt pounder but compared to the little guys it suited the cars better. At least the 5.7 could get out of it's own way.

Would have been interesting to see what the little V8 or even the V6 would have been capable of with a better bottom end and a roller cam like the DX engine plus some forced induction.

The heads on all of these engines were the weak link. Due to the design, there just was not enough clamping load (read not enough head bolts) to keep them attached to the blocks. After 81, very few of the 5.7s suffered any bottom end problems but continued to blow head gaskets.

Alot of the problems can be placed at the feet of the then new tech "torque to break" head bolts. Don't know how many engines I saw with three or more bolts sheared off at the bolt head. They looked like they were fine but you could twist the head bolt with your fingers. They snapped right at the bolt shoulder, but stayed in place. Even one missing head bolt would bugger up the gasket. Only fix was solid copper gaskets, fire rings and head studs. Apparently Felpro now has a special gasket for these engines that seems to do the trick without the need for fire rings.

The other issue was the amount of metal between the valves. These engines had the largest valves you could stuff into that space so there was no room to cast a cooling channel between the valve stems. If the engine had more than a few thousand miles on it, it probably had valve seat to valve seat cracks in the heads. It didn't take long for these cracks to migrate into the water jacket or intake/exhaust ports.

The 6.2 continued to have the same issue but there was enough room between the valves in these engines to drill out a channel and drive in a bronze sleeve. This allowed for some inter valve cooling and even if it did crack, nothing got by the bronze sleeve. Later on the metallurgy used got rid of the problem. Once tried this fix on a 5.7 but there just wasn't enough meat between the valves.

These engines really brought out a masochistic streak in me. Couldn't wrap my head around such a good design being thwarted by on-going problems. Still sometimes wonder, using the new C and C technology, better metallurgy and the new fuel control systems we couldn't finally get this design to work. Then I come to my senses and realize they did with the 6.2/6.5. Essentially they are the same design, right down to the Ricaro pre-chambers.

Bill

Was not aware that the current 6.2s and 6.5s were basically enlarged and improved versions
of the nitemarish 70s design.Typical GM they strive to perfect and once good they quit offering
the diesel option in US destined cars.
Jim

Flasheroo wrote:

Was not aware that the current 6.2s and 6.5s were basically enlarged and improved versions
of the nitemarish 70s design.Typical GM they strive to perfect and once good they quit offering
the diesel option in US destined cars.
Jim

Jim:

By the time the 6.2 was ready, the public perception of the GM diesel was so tainted by the first two years of the 5.7 that marketing figured putting it into the cars would not be well recieved. Trucks were another thing. They continued with the 5.7 up till 85 and though it was originally suggested that the 6.2 be offered in the full size cars, the fuel crunch was gone and the 5.7 reputation had pretty well written paid on diesel cars in North America. Too bad cause it could have worked.

Actually the 6.2 was a Detroit Diesel project. GM knew the 5.7 design was good but also knew that it should be done by a true diesel company. All GM did, in short, was hand DD the 5.7, the exact dimensions of the big block chevy (so they didn't have to change the production line tooling) and told them to make the concept work. The 6.2 was the result. After the first year of production (82/82 originally painted chevy red) GM resumed the manufacturing and once again the accountants screwed it up. They changed the metallurgy, the IP specs and internal dimensions resulting in some internal structural problems and IP pump failures. Hey GM .

It then took them another 5 years to get it right again. In the early years (and still today) getting your hands on one of the original "red blocks" was your best bet for re-building. Forget anything previous to 88. 88 to 93 were great blocks and than they went to the electronic stanadyne and lightened up the blocks again. Sometimes you really have to wonder what goes on in the heads of accountants. Do they never learn? With the exception of the "599" block (essentially the good 6.2 block bored out), the 6.5s from 94 - 2000 were useless and almost all came with cracked main webs, and the class action suit against GM and Stanadyne for the new DB4 electronic pump is the stuff of legend. Almost as bad as the "rusty Ford" suit.

When the tooling was sold to AMG (Hummer) in 2000, they immediately took the engine off the market for 6 months and gave the tooling to International to fix. They essentially returned the structural integrity of the original red block DD engine back into the design and beefed up the mains. Applied some new metallurgy and anything after 2001 has remained trouble free. In the first 5 years of production, the AMG 6.5 had the lowest rate of warrantee return of any light duty engine ever produced. Accolades to Binder, AMG and the original DD engineers. If you can find a 6.5 with the International diamond cast into the block, get it.

End of history lesson.

Bill

Wow I did not know but I do now.When I was driving for Federal Transport,I use to pick up
the diesel V-8s from Navistar in Indy and deliver them to the Ford truck plant in Norfolk.That
plant is closed now but it was sure interesting to watch them take a engine off my trailer and follow it to the assembly line.They would have a brand new truck waiting for that engine on the
assembly line.
Jim

Flasheroo wrote:

Wow I did not know but I do now.When I was driving for Federal Transport,I use to pick up
the diesel V-8s from Navistar in Indy and deliver them to the Ford truck plant in Norfolk.That
plant is closed now but it was sure interesting to watch them take a engine off my trailer and follow it to the assembly line.They would have a brand new truck waiting for that engine on the
assembly line.
Jim

JIT (just in time). Henry may have developed the assembly line but it took GM to perfect it. Only good thing ever created by an accountant. Surround your assembly plant with a bunch of sub-assemblers and deliver the part to the plant when it is needed, not before. Don't re-handle it five times.

Bill

I remember that ford wanted to know where those engines were at all times.We had to call in
every 4 hours and I didnt have a cell phone back then.Paid decent but was a pain in the ass
to have to stop every 4 hours and call in.
Jim

One of the downfalls of JIT is operational logistics. Most plants won't have short term storage for large sub-assemblies like engines. If you know you have one or two trucks in the que that require the diesel, and you don't know where or when these engines are going to arrive, things can and do get a little intense. GPS tracking has solved most of these issues but as you said, back then, you didn't even have a cell phone. Not the best for the mental health of the plant manager.

Bill

Wow! Tons of info. Good reading, learned a lot!

-Mike

convert2diesel wrote:

Sometimes you really have to wonder what goes on in the heads of accountants. Do they never learn?

The accounting department thinks that anything built to last or easy to rebuild means fewer new car sales in the future.

One of the last times I was out the ford truck plant,I waited for them to unload the trailer and
reload it with a return load of the racks the engines were shipped from Indy to Norfolk.I got
to watch the actual trucks with the diesel engines that I delivered completed and driven onto
a railcar for shipping.Pretty neat learning expierience as I witnessed the International plant
build the diesel engine beginning with the iron ore in their foundry.Watched the engines be
built and broken in on the stress dynos,then loaded on my trailer.I delivered the engines that
I witnessed being built to the truck plant where they were installed and shipped out.That was back in 87 or 88 ,I wonder if any of those trucks are still around.
Jim