1996 RMW Front Pump leak?

Well, The Betty has a substantial transmission leak. We knew it when we got it, but we figured it was the pan or lines. Turns out that something is leaking under the inspection cover. It's not the front seal - it's coming from higher. I figure the front pump or a cracked pump housing. Is this a common problem on these things? Anyone run into it before?

Otherwise, the trans works fine.

Thanks!

Rare, as far as I know.

Usually if it leaks out the front it's because the pump bushing walked out on the converter snout and covered the drain-back port and/or destroyed the seal.

Sounds like the trans is going to have to come out. How many miles on it? The one in my wagon is currently being removed (lost reverse) and even at 153,000 miles, the front seal is bone dry.

That makes more sense than the pump theory. How do you know if the bushing is bad? How hard is it to replace (obviously I know I have to remove the trans anyway).

EDIT: Forgot to put in the mileage: 127k miles.

Thanks!

It's somewhat common to have the bellhousing crack just forward of where the pump bolts in, but that would not cause a leak. Are you SURE it's coming from that area? Not from the cooler line fittings on the passenger side? How bad is the leak?

If the pump seal/bushing is shot, yes, take out the trans & converter. The pump will have to be removed and disassembled, then the old seal driven out, a new bushing and seal installed, then the pump reassembled and reinstalled. I make it sound easy, but you really have to know what you're looking at. This is not real intuitive, and I would not recommend a transmission newbie do it unless you are VERY handy.

Honestly, at 127k, I'd have the trans rebuilt. It is not worth it to take it out only to fix that one thing. I'm currently taking the trans out of my wagon and it's a LOT of work. At that mileage and age, the rest of the trans needs attention, guarranteed.

Thanks. that's good advice. I was under it today while it was running. Trans fluid is literally pouring down the inside of the bell housing from up top. The TC is picking it up and slinging it everywhere, even with the cover on.

I don't know much about transmissions. I figured once we got it out, I would take it to the local trans guy. He might say the same thing about a rebuild and maybe that's my best option.

Iv'e had auto trannies in and out of GM cars before without too much trouble. Is there an exception with these cars? My brother Jim (who posted this thread) and I are going to attack it in the morning.

Thanks

BTW, it seems to shift fine otherwise.

We're half way there. Got the old one out. It wasn't so bad. Nothing obvious wrong with the front seal, but that's where the fluid was coming from. After doing the research (and the advice here), it looks like it's probably the bushing behind the seal. We're going to take it to a local shop to get a professional opinion.

I'll write it up later - I gots pics. The manual provides some good information in the way of what order to attack things. What the manual doesn't mention, however, is removal of one or both cats. Without the cats in the way, particularly the right side cat, the job would be much easier. The lines were a total bitch to get at, as predicted.

Evidence:

Yeah, the B-body trans lines suck to get at. That's where I got stuck.

Look at the converter snout - is the bushing on it? I saw one where the bushing walked completely out and buried itself on the converter snout!

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Yeah, the B-body trans lines suck to get at. That's where I got stuck.

Look at the converter snout - is the bushing on it? I saw one where the bushing walked completely out and buried itself on the converter snout!

Looks like the bushing is where it should be. The front seal was leaking, though. You can see where the retainer is wet and rusty. You can also see the grime from the fluid path down the face of the pump. I think we're going to take it to a local guy anyway just to be sure. Not a job you want to do twice.

I can tell that it's been out before so it may have been rebuilt in the past.

Oh yeah - regarding the lines. You have to drop it down pretty far to get decent access to them. We had the trans free of everything except the lines, then dropped it down to where we could get a wrench on the lines.

Also, the manual doesn't mention disconnecting the exhaust pipes from the cat flanges in order to remove the cross member, but I don't see how you'd do it otherwise. Luckily, our exhaust system had been worked on in the recent past so the flanges came off easily. If you're not that lucky, plan on breaking some bolts getting the exhaust system loose.

Is the 96 supposed to be PWM?

I believe 1996 was the first model year for PWM TCC.

What's the story with the vacuum line hooked up to the vent tube? Was that stock? It had a one-way vacuum valve T'd into it. It looked like factory retainers holding it to the crossmember, but where it's connected to the vent tube looks more half-a$$ed than the factory would have done.

'95 was first year of PWM control of the TCC apply. Allows the PCM to make a smoother application of the lockup clutch.

Vacuum line hooked to the vent tube is a fresh air vent to the trans. When the line pressure in the trans goes up, the fluid level goes down and you need to let in fresh air. The long pipe allows air to come in without bugs or dirt or anything, and if the trans overheats or foams, it'll vent out that hose.

The T is a safety valve in case the long hose gets clogged.

Make sure the hose flows freely and the reinstall once you put the transmission back in.

Look inside the front pump opening in the trans. There should be a 1/4" area between the pump bushing and the seal that allows for any pump bushing leakage drainback down to the pan. If this bushing walks out and closes off that area, any leakage gets forced right out the pump seal because it has nowhere else to go. If you see no gap between the seal and what looks like a bushing area, that's the leak culprit right there.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

'95 was first year of PWM control of the TCC apply. Allows the PCM to make a smoother application of the lockup clutch.

Vacuum line hooked to the vent tube is a fresh air vent to the trans. When the line pressure in the trans goes up, the fluid level goes down and you need to let in fresh air. The long pipe allows air to come in without bugs or dirt or anything, and if the trans overheats or foams, it'll vent out that hose.

The T is a safety valve in case the long hose gets clogged.

Make sure the hose flows freely and the reinstall once you put the transmission back in.

Look inside the front pump opening in the trans. There should be a 1/4" area between the pump bushing and the seal that allows for any pump bushing leakage drainback down to the pan. If this bushing walks out and closes off that area, any leakage gets forced right out the pump seal because it has nowhere else to go. If you see no gap between the seal and what looks like a bushing area, that's the leak culprit right there.

Thanks. We dropped it off at a local trans shop. They seemed to think the bushing had walked out of place. They're going to put new o-rings, bushing and seals in it. They also want to see the converter to make sure the nose isn't too worn to seal (we forgot to bring it). I don't think it is, but they'll let me know I guess.

turbojimmy wrote:

They're going to put new o-rings, bushing and seals in it.

Hopefully the whole trans, and not just the pump? BTW, I've become a firm believer that every 4L60E rebuild needs new bushings throughout. You lose fluid control otherwise.

I'd also strongly recommend the Sonnax 4l60E-HP-01 shift kit. Pricey but very very good parts. Just put one in mine actually.

turbojimmy wrote:

They also want to see the converter to make sure the nose isn't too worn to seal (we forgot to bring it).

This speaks well of the trans shop.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

turbojimmy wrote:

They're going to put new o-rings, bushing and seals in it.

Hopefully the whole trans, and not just the pump? BTW, I've become a firm believer that every 4L60E rebuild needs new bushings throughout. You lose fluid control otherwise.

I'd also strongly recommend the Sonnax 4l60E-HP-01 shift kit. Pricey but very very good parts. Just put one in mine actually.

turbojimmy wrote:

They also want to see the converter to make sure the nose isn't too worn to seal (we forgot to bring it).

This speaks well of the trans shop.

+1 on the bushings and the Sonnax kit

turbojimmy wrote:

...They seemed to think the bushing had walked out of place. They're going to put new o-rings, bushing and seals in it. They also want to see the converter to make sure the nose isn't too worn to seal (we forgot to bring it). I don't think it is, but they'll let me know I guess.

It has been my experience that the front pump seal generally does not all of a sudden decide to fail, it had help, and typically the bushing has caused the seal failure. Whether it spun, walked out of place or is simply worn due to other circumstances, it's always a good idea to replace it. Of course, provided it will fit the pump housing correctly, i.e. spun bushing and the front pump housing is no longer any good.

Thanks Joel,going to try and remember that little helpful hint about a good transmission shop!

I found from doing this twice now (soon to be a third time) that while it may be a pain, the whole job is MUCH easier if you remove the cats completly. You would be surprised how much space you gain by losing those things.

Yep, the cats are a pain. You can't get the bellhousing down past them and the RH cat is in the way of lots of things that need disconnected.

Once we got the trans out, we tried the cat bolts at the manifold. They're going to snap off. Then we'll have to remove the manifold. Those bolts will snap off, and next think you know we'll have the engine out of it. BTDT.



It is infinitely easier to work on them when they're out of the car, but getting them out of the car isn't any fun.

Anyway, the trans shop is going to call my brother with a diagnosis. I'm surprised they didn't call today, actually. One of us needs to run that torque converter over to the shop in the morning. He or I will post a full report :-)

Trans shop charged $150 for the repair. Included is the kit (o-rings, bushing, front seal and pan gasket) and 1.5 hours of labor. Definitely well worth it to know it was done right. They said the converter looks okay and they were surprised that the good condition it was in given the mileage. I think this is further evidence that the trans was freshened up at some point.

It's going to remain stock for now while my brother knocks out some other minor issues with the car. Ultimately we'll probably take the engine and trans back out for some fun upgrades...

From the looks of the cars in your driveway,you have good taste and a nice driveway!Always
thought that the wagons had only one engine!Glad the transmission is coming back without
costing an arm and a leg! You should see what my buddy with the stretch has done to his
suspension.Has it handling very good.

Flasheroo wrote:

From the looks of the cars in your driveway,you have good taste and a nice driveway!Always
thought that the wagons had only one engine!Glad the transmission is coming back without
costing an arm and a leg! You should see what my buddy with the stretch has done to his
suspension.Has it handling very good.

Thanks! We're a "GM Family". We've strayed with other brands in the past, but have always come back. Right now my brother is the black sheep with a Ford Escape, but he's redeemed himself with this wagon.

All things considered, the trans has been an inexpensive fix - assuming it's fixed. We won't know for sure until we put it back on the ground, but I'm sure the trans shop diagnosed it properly.

I'd like to drop the stretch a little, both for better handling and for better looks. Right now, it's functioning fine so I'm not going to mess with it. I finally have the A/V system set up the way I like it. I'd like to do rims next...maybe I'll mess with the suspension when I scrape up the cash for those.

That's a good price, all things considering. Did they happen to look at the front and rear stator bushings? Hopefully they weren't worn, but this shop sounds like they know what they are doing.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

That's a good price, all things considering. Did they happen to look at the front and rear stator bushings? Hopefully they weren't worn, but this shop sounds like they know what they are doing.

I don't know what they looked at, honestly. I talked to the guy that did the work. He said it looked pretty good otherwise. Nothing alarming about it. They are a good shop and I'd trust them if they told me it needed a lot more work. But they didn't, so we're happy.

In other news, I got my truck back on the road so I was able to pick the trans up about an hour ago.

Yesterday was the automotive day from hell. I swapped cars with my GF because her BMW had a flat. I got it taken care of and spent the next few hours taking the trans out of the Buick with my brother (My Betty). After we dropped the trans of at the shop, my GF called about a flat on my truck. The right rear tire was sliced open from the remnants of a sheetrock knife that she must have run over. I met her in a parking lot and gave her the BMW back. The spare on my truck wouldn't drop down - a common problem with the GM trucks where the safety catch won't release. Didn't matter anyway because the spare had no air in it. Limped the truck to my brother's house a half a mile away and left it for the night. Then my sister called because her minivan left her and one of her kids stranded a few miles away. Rescued her and waited an hour and a half for a tow truck. My bro then left his truck with my sister so she had something to drive. I took my bro to my dad's house to pick up his Camaro so he would have something to drive. I finally got home a little after 9:00 PM.

Went to my bro's house this morning to deal with my truck - knowing I needed it to get the transmission from the shop. I took the flat tire off it, but the new tire won't be in until tomorrow. With a crowbar, BFH and a pneumatic cut-off tool, I finally freed up the spare so it would drop down. I found that the spare was leaking around the bead but would hold air long enough for me to drive it somewhere to get some Fix-a-Flat (which I only put in spare tires, not "real" tires). I started jacking the truck up to install the spare and it rolled forward, the jack shot out and the 6,000 lb. Avalanche fell, seemingly in slow motion, and crushed the jackstand that was under it. I had to get a jack to get the other jack out from under the truck. Got the spare on, ran to Wally*World and got some Fix-a-Flat. It worked as intended - finally a break.

Got it all working in time to pick the kids up at school, run to the trans shop to get the wagon's trans and back home to type this message.

Later, when my bro gets home from work we're going to dump the trans off at my dad's house (where the wagon is). Then we'll swing by his house to get my limo (which I left there when I picked up the truck).

I am lucky,have 3 siblings and they all hate me so I dont feel guilty when I pass them on the side of the road.Just kidding,baby sis just brought over her new toyota,yea I know but her hubby
pays for it.One brother is loaded and a ass and the kid brother takes good care of his vehicles.
Hope this is the end of the problems for awhile.

What a day!!!

While you have the tranny out install a SONAX HP Kit. You will NOT be disappointed.

Ugh.

We put the trans back in, put it on the ground and it's doing the same friggin thing. The torque converter is slinging fluid everywhere. I could see that the trans guy put a teflon bushing and new seals in it, so I don't think that's the problem.

Called the trans guy and he said the converter might be cracked. If we take it out and bring it to him, he'll pressurize it.

My Betty (my brother) is extremely "disappointed" so we won't be doing it today. When he's done throwing tools around in the garage, we'll put together a plan to take the trans back out. We're getting good at it

I'll probably sneak over tomorrow and do it while he's at work.

Bummer - sorry to hear that.

I got one of my cooler lines off last night. The short one that goes to the sensor block - I unscrewed it from the sensor block and just took the whole short line out. It just about took breaker bars to separate it from the screw-in fitting once I had it on the bench! Man was it in tight!

On the second (upper) line, I heated up the fittings with a propane torch and then melted some candlewax into the threads and into the line. It wicked right in like plumbing solder - hopefully that'll help me get this thing out.

I've also got to replace the radiator. While I do that, I will have the lines out, replace the original crimps and rubber (it's defintely aged!) with new rubber and hose clamps over lightly flared ends. No more leaks.

Once Mike calmed down we took the trans back out. 43 minutes this time

On his way to the trans shop with it.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Bummer - sorry to hear that.

I got one of my cooler lines off last night. The short one that goes to the sensor block - I unscrewed it from the sensor block and just took the whole short line out. It just about took breaker bars to separate it from the screw-in fitting once I had it on the bench! Man was it in tight!

On the second (upper) line, I heated up the fittings with a propane torch and then melted some candlewax into the threads and into the line. It wicked right in like plumbing solder - hopefully that'll help me get this thing out.

I've also got to replace the radiator. While I do that, I will have the lines out, replace the original crimps and rubber (it's defintely aged!) with new rubber and hose clamps over lightly flared ends. No more leaks.

You have more patience than I do. I've have cut those lines by now and used compression fittings to put them back together.

The rubber lines are leaking at the crimps on my Fleetwood. I need to address that soon. It's just enough to be annoying, but not enough to warrant crawling under it.

It's official. Pressure test revealed a crack in the neck of the torque converter.

We went with the odds on a common 4L60E problem, but got hosed. But, at least it has a new teflon bearing and seals in it. One less thing to worry about I guess.

New converter will arrive in the morning.

$150 is a small price to pay for a missed diagnosis. Cracked torque converters are much more rare.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

$150 is a small price to pay for a missed diagnosis. Cracked torque converters are much more rare.

I suppose. It would have been nice if they pressure tested it while they had it. They were kind of sheepish about it. We didn't bring it in with a diagnosis - we just told them it was leaking somewhere out the front. You could see that the converter was slinging oil everywhere, which in retrospect is a good indication that it wasn't the front seal.

Oh well, at least it's fixed now. Hopefully we can get it popped in tomorrow. Depends on Mike's work schedule.

Been watching this thread. Glad to hear you are almost there! Good luck with it.

-Mike

81X11 wrote:

Been watching this thread. Glad to hear you are almost there! Good luck with it.

-Mike

Thanks. I think we're coming in on the home stretch with the transmission.

The A/C compressor needs replaced, too, so we may as well do that while we're under there. We picked one up yesterday, and I have a new receiver lying around that I had intended on putting in my Fleetwood. There's no refrigerant in the system - I checked it yesterday. If I'm feeling REALLY ambitious I'll vacuum it down and see if it holds. Otherwise we'll wait til Spring to recharge it. R134a is getting hard to find this time of year anyway. I'd wait on the compressor, too, but the bearings are shot and it's going to seize up one day soon.

Despite these problems, the car was really well maintained. I think the combination of the trans leak and the A/C issue was more than the owner could bear. He claimed he recently spent $3k on brakes. I can see the new lines and he said the calipers, rotors, pads etc. were new. The older they get, the tougher financially they are to own if you can't do your own work.

...and DONE! Leak free!

The trans job is MUCH harder with just one person, but Mike worked today and I was bored. Got the new A/C compressor installed (another story I won't bore anyone with), new receiver and of course the transmission and new torque converter.

My dad came home from a business trip just in time to tell us that, in his opinion, the shop we used was fairly incompetent and shady. I respect his opinion, but it's water under the bridge now.

I didn't vacuum down and recharge the A/C system but we'll do that over the weekend. The imminent danger was the bearings seizing up on the old compressor.

Considering the fact they didnt pressurize the convertor the first time they had it,I would say
your dad is correct as far as being incompetent!The only time Ive ever heard of a TC being
cracked was when my nephews best friend was trying to get his 4 cylinder S-10 to spin
its rear tires by flooring the gas in neutral and dropping into drive.

Flasheroo wrote:

Considering the fact they didnt pressurize the convertor the first time they had it,I would say
your dad is correct as far as being incompetent!The only time Ive ever heard of a TC being
cracked was when my nephews best friend was trying to get his 4 cylinder S-10 to spin
its rear tires by flooring the gas in neutral and dropping into drive.

The good thing about these cars is you don't have to do a "neutral drop" to get the rear tires to spin

I dunno what the story with it was. Probably just a manufacturing defect, or maybe the converter wasn't installed properly at some point in the past.

It was worth it - the new one is a purty blue

With regard to the A/C compressor - I got one at Advance Auto and it did not have the stud to clamp the lines to the compressor. The bolt that came with it that held in the temporary shipping cover was too short. The biggest vise grips I had wouldn't budge the stud out of the old compressor. Turns out an exhaust manifold stud works in its place. I don't know what size it was, but I found it in our "Magic Bucket" - a decades-old bucket of random hardware that we've accumulated.

Vacuumed the system down today and it held for at least 20 minutes. Put the recommended amount of refrigerant in it (1 lb., 12 oz.) and the A/C is ice cold now. For those replacing the compressor, you should also do the receiver/drier. Per the manual, put 3.5 oz. of oil in the new receiver and 2 oz. in the new compressor.

Next on my list do to on my Caprice 9C1 - AC. Shaft seal gave up after 164k; although the compressor itself still turns over nice and good so I'm keeping it.

On a completely unrelated note about neutral drops.... I know folks love to go with wider tires, but sometimes the narrower ones can be more fun. I've got a set of whitewall 215/70R15s on Caprice alloy rims on my 9C1 and today it blew the tires off at 55mph in a light drizzle (stock 3.08s posi, stock exhaust). If I hadn't been datalogging at the time I would have gone and had some fun in empty parking lots!

The AC compressor had been replaced at some point in the past. One bolt was cross-threaded and only half-way in. The rear bracket was gone too. The little old lady that owned it PAID someone to do that!

We would have left it alone, but the bearings were shot and it sounded like a box of rocks.

I was able to clean up the threads and get all 3 front bolts installed, but I want to find a rear bracket for it. The compressor case will flex causing front seal failure without that support in the back.

turbojimmy wrote:

It's official. Pressure test revealed a crack in the neck of the torque converter.

We went with the odds on a common 4L60E problem, but got hosed. But, at least it has a new teflon bearing and seals in it. One less thing to worry about I guess.

New converter will arrive in the morning.

Exactly what happened to mine. Hairline crack on TC was not noticed when trans was pulled and pump bushing replaced. After repair it still leaked. Tranny was pulled out again to find the cracked TC. I even said to the Tech doing the work that it was either a cracked TC or pump bushing before he even did the work. Did not charge me for the 2nd tranny pull labor.