rear air bag mounts ?

All right then, here we go again.

I've started up grades on my '89 Buick boxie (the one in my avatar)
The tow bar kit is finished (hidden behind the plate) and out to the powder coater.
The PST super front end kit, (polygraphite) is on order.



Now it's time to tackle the rear air bag setup...
I know about the "bag in coil" set up, had them on a class A motor home and a couple of Chevy pick up's, no problems, but really want to do something better for the Boxie, and more of a "PRO" install/conversion.

The factory spring mounts have no means of positive spring retention, if you remove the shock and lower the rear axle far enough, the springs will lift right out. Could This present a problem with bags ?

Are the rear spring perches, upper and lower, the same on the sedan as the wagon? Is there an air bag install available for the sedan, that could be adapted to our beloved wagons?

None of the air bag outfit's I contacted, seem to want to help with this particular install. Any idea why?

Is there anybody out there that can help with the design of the hat's and a means of attachment to the frame and axle?

Fabrication of the hats presents no particular problems but I'd rather do it right the first time, make all the mistakes on cardboard, not steel.

Seems to me, that this has to have been done before, but I cant' find any info pertaining to the Boxie's

As usual, all information, opinion, smart azz comments and general skylarking will be evaluated, graded for content and humor then used in a most inappropriate fashion.

Let the games begin...

Paul

Wow. Not a lot of response here for this. I have the bag in spring setup on my '96 RMW and it's not much problem. I even just moved the air lines from the stock self leveling air shocks to the air bags and my stock compressor does just fine.

Maybe the lack of response is because it's hard to beat this solution?

Thanks for the reply Pat,
I thought this thread was dead. I made contact with an outfit called BC Fabrication, they claim to have kits for our beloved "B" bodies. I've been chatting with Phil, he's very helpful. Still working out the details but the price is around $160.00 for the hats and front shock mounts.
Controls, compressors, tanks and bag's (I have 6 2600 Lb.)  extra.

BC fab are the guy's that bag all the big dually pickups as well as Lincoln's, Caddy's and LTD's our wagons should be a walk in the park...

I'll type more when I know more.

Paul

$160 is a steal for everything,..

hats are pretty simple,. with your fab skills you should be able to weld a couple of slices of a pipe into some flat sheet,

Well, here we are, several months later with no significant progress.

The folks at BC fabricator's don't seem to want to know me anymore.

I'm getting closer to installing a PST super front end kit W/poly graphite bushings, as well as all the hard parts. (upper & lower ball joints and rod ends, etc)

I'm still looking for a smart pig to walk me thru the process of measuring for and fabbing the hats, as well as mount points for the frame and axle. (I have the bags and all the parts for the air side of the system in hand)

I have a lot of fab experience, but never a bag set up from scratch. Would somebody out there walk me thru the basics? I really don't mind making all the dumb mistakes myself, but they do get expensive over time...

Thanks, Paul

No smart pigs here,.none smart enough to move the bags inboard or out board of the springs anyway,.as was mentioned,. bag in coil is the best all round option unless you are going with a dedicated air ride setup with no springs,. ,.. then you are better off looking for info on a forum more geared towards that sort of thing where the smart pigs hang out,..

Many people do air ride setups, BC fab guys aren't like the only ones or anything. My buddy did his setup all himself in a one car garage barely big enough for his Suburban. Anyways I'm sure the parts are out here to mount bags on a 3" axle tube, uppers may need to be fab'd but that's the name of the game when customizing. Even in this day not everything is available off the shelf.

There is a member that joined recently, he bagged his Roadmaster, maybe ask him for advice?

"ReverendGreasy"

OK, let me try this one more time.

I want to REPLACE my REAR coil springs with dedicated air bags, (2600 Lb, double convoluted) while retaining the factory air shocks and perhaps add a second pair of gas shocks to improve bounce and sway control.

I will upgrade to heavy duty Helwig stabilizer bars, front and rear, as well as Moog CC623 front springs.

I'm not trying to build a corner carver or canyon racer, I just want a no bullcrap, firm feeling, minimum body roll, bounce and sway, comfortable  tow rig.

Now the big question.

If I take the total suspension travel, (shock compressed to shock extended) subtract the median BAG length, (half way between fully extended and fully collapsed) and divide the remainder by 2, will that get me the height of the hat's? The bag can easily be moved up or down, for clearance, as long as the total length stays the same. (it looks to me like the bottom mount can sit right on the axel housing, with the top mount cantilevered off the frame)

How much, if any wiggle room is there in the total travel measurement? If I can engineer in an extra couple inches of travel, I will. (I'm not trying to lay frame or donk this rig, just trying to gain a little wheel travel)

Please tell me what you think, thanks, Paul

http://www.ridetech.com/store/leveltow-kits/ 812-481-4787 Im sure these guys can get you what you need.

What are you thinking about keeping your factory air shocks?

Well, I just re read that sentence and it didn't make sense to me either.

I guess I was thinking redundancy, in case of a blown or leaking bag. (not a great plan, but worthy of consideration. I know the air shocks were not designed to take the entire weight load, but they will do it in a pinch) I will also consider bump stops, and limit straps, to keep the body off the tires, worst case scenario.

Doubling up the shocks still sounds like a workable idea. what say you?

Paul

I thinking you are over thinking this thing...IMHO

Andebe, I'm pretty sure you are correct.
25 years with the Department of Redundancy Department (military) has warped my personality. OTOH, I usually weather 2 or 3 catastrophic failures before the **** really hits the fan.

What would constitute an acceptable plan for the intended result?

It all depends on what you want your end result to be. However, if done properly, simply replacing your rear springs with air bags and replacing the factory shocks with a quality shock would be perfect. I've driven bagged cars and trucks of all makes and models all over the US with next to ZERO problems.

OTOH there's the KISS approach = Run the cargo coils in the rear with the air shocks, it'll handle the factory rated weight and have the air shocks to level it. No bags to blow, because the springs/air bag is what carries the weight, not the shock. You should be running a weight distributing hitch, because lets face it, it's not a 3/4 ton truck it's a car.

Well, common sense may have won out again.

I re read this entire thread, applied logic, and came to the conclusion that I was wanting to bag the old girl for all the wrong reasons.(as had been said, "way to much over thinking")

Right now I have the Cargo coils, all the rubber spring isolators, heavy duty gas shocks for the front and Monroe "Max Air" shocks for the rear, in hand.

All the hard parts, for the front, will be here tomorrow, and the Polygraphite bushing kit is 5 to 7 days out. (front and rear) The only choices left are the sway bars. The factory front sway bar is pretty puny for a 4000 Lb. cruiser. (5/8ths or so) What would you guys recommend ? I'm thinking a 1 1/8th on the front and a 1 inch out back. ($200.00 a pop from PST)

I still haven't given up on the idea of adding a second set of shocks to the rear, but I'll wait and see how well the equalizer hitch handles the sway, if any.

Thanks for the applied reason,
Paul

Well, after going with the cargo coils and Monroe Airmax air shocks in the rear.  I agonized, read every post I could find on 3 different boards, trying to pick a front spring. I chose the Moog 800098. coupled with a 1 1/8 th. inch sway bar and Monroe Gas Magnum shocks.
PST poly graphite bushings all around. Comments?

The question is: Would it be prudent to upgrade the rear lower control arms at the same time? What about the uppers? I'm already dumping a boatload of money into the old girl, and wondering, if new rear lower control arms and sway bar will really add that much to the towing performance? do it now, or later? Thanks for the help...

Paul

i just read this thru again,...

phew,...!!

One thing you are missing in all this,. IF you want a no bullcrap, firm feeling, minimum body roll, bounce and sway, comfortable  tow rig.,. you need a set of LT tires,.

I usually run 255 50 17 tires on my cars,.the 50 series sidewall sways very little compared to a tire with a 75 series sidewall.

I forget if you mentioned how much weight you are going to pull,.

I,ve pulled some silly weights with a wagon,.helping my neighbour bring hay on trailers etc,.using a pindle hook and ring traction was the most difficult part,.

i have pulled a b body sedan on a tandem trailer behind a wagon,.
i have pulled my 6700 lb 6.5 diesel extended cab long box pickup on a trailer behind a wagon,. (stupid FSD)

even with the ass end a little droopy,. its all about the tires,.IF the rear tires have weak sidewalls and are under inflated for the load they are carrying,. then you will get the sway that everyone hates,.

most car tires with tall sidewalls don't have enough plies in them,.

You are going to have an exceptionally firm handling wagon, if you keep on the path you are going down,.

I have run various wagons of mine around race tracks,, with various rear sway bars,. and i have yet to have a rear control arm fail on me,.and i do drive the wagons right to their limits,.

Not even when  towing 10,000lb hay wagons across the fields,.with no brakes on them
(exciting times going down any downhills) have i had a rear control arm fail,.

But beefy control arms sure look cool,.and like a lot of overkill mods,. they are good bragging rights,.

"But beefy control arms sure look cool,.and like a lot of overkill mods,. they are good bragging rights,." Finally,someone gets it! Lol

Phantom 309, I went with the 255-75-15 XLT tires all round, at 35 PSI, the ride is good with no detectable side wall flex. The Starship still rolls like a drunken river barge, but ~ $850.00 in hard parts, and a day's butt bustin', should take a big bite out of that.

I finally got around to checking out the ALS pump. The motor is fubar, draws 16 Amps to run unloaded and stalls out around 6 PSI. Good used pumps are nonexistent in my part of the world and any on D'bay are priced way out of my budget. (I'm sure the current manual fill system will continue to work, even if I add "in spring" bags later, just a bit more plumbing...)

Has any body tried to cobble up a system using some of the existing hardware and a stand alone pump and volume tank, perhaps with solenoids and toggle switches ? It seems to me, that the switch at the rear axel could control fill and bleed solenoids, just as well. (mayhaps steal a page or two out of the low rider's book?)
I've read many of the posts on the ALS, both here and on other boards, With parts drying up/getting pricey, I'm thinking it might be time to redgineer (that's REDNECK engineer) a workable replacement system?

Let's grind that one thru the collective and see what pop's out. Might be worth giving the concept it's own thread?

Thanks, Paul

Andebe wrote:

I thinking you are over thinking this thing...IMHO

Ummmm,please reread.

You guy's keep that up, and I'm gonna have to get an umbrella for my parade...

Paul

Not one person here wants to discuss a re engineering of the ALS design? Really? Is there some vast collection of, dirt cheap, spare parts hidden out there, that I don't know about?

Paul

Compressors are pretty easy to come by around here, the pull a parts are full of mid 90's caddy's.I know the fwd sedan devilles had sls. Compressor is mounted above rear axle.

Ed