BAD WAG build

i would use LED lights for the rear grab handle lights so they don't degrade again from the heat from incandescent bulbs - plus they tend to be a bit brighter

Serendipity96 wrote:

i would use LED lights for the rear grab handle lights so they don't degrade again from the heat from incandescent bulbs - plus they tend to be a bit brighter

Great idea! Thanks

Working on the throttle linkage...

Great choice on that steering box. Installed one a few years ago and it is still working perfectly.

Nice progress so far, looking forward to the finished project.

Door bezel refresh

nice work!

Laying out the new black carpet and testing where the shifter will need to go.

console and seats look cool!

Finally got my engine back.

Had to cut the wiper cowl back to make room for the tunnel ram

Getting the CVF serpentine kit installed. I need to find a new radiator now...

Did you figure out what you are going to do for a distributor?

Did you gasket match the intake manifold and heads?

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Did you figure out what you are going to do for a distributor?

Did you gasket match the intake manifold and heads?

MSD makes a small diameter distributor now, so I'm going to get that one.

I haven't yet. The intake is just temp on the engine.

You will find that it will not fit. I got the distributor eliminator from Holley/MSD, and used a crank position sensor. There is no distributor that will fit behind the engine without cutting the cowl so you can install and remove it. If you put a distributor on it in the stock position, the best you can hope for is to install the distributor and intake as a unit, and still cut the cowl. The height of the distributor Is the issue. I have used a stock TBI distributor, but had to ream out the manifold for it to fit. Even with that I still had to pull the intake and distributor together to get the distributor out. Another option is a cog belt driven one that is mounted on the front of the engine. If you run into any other issues, I have a BBC in my 91 OCC and believe I have solved most or all of the issues that come up with installing one in a B-body.

BTY is this for the street or strip?

Fred Kiehl wrote:

You will find that it will not fit. I got the distributor eliminator from Holley/MSD, and used a crank position sensor. There is no distributor that will fit behind the engine without cutting the cowl so you can install and remove it. If you put a distributor on it in the stock position, the best you can hope for is to install the distributor and intake as a unit, and still cut the cowl. The height of the distributor Is the issue. I have used a stock TBI distributor, but had to ream out the manifold for it to fit. Even with that I still had to pull the intake and distributor together to get the distributor out. Another option is a cog belt driven one that is mounted on the front of the engine. If you run into any other issues, I have a BBC in my 91 OCC and believe I have solved most or all of the issues that come up with installing one in a B-body.

BTY is this for the street or strip?

I did cut the cowl back, only way to get the tunnel ram to fit. The one pic I posted shows from a top down view.

This is mostly for the street.

I didn't recognize the cut out area.

Good luck with it.

You should consider Hydro boost for your brake booster. It will allow you to change your #7 plug easily, and the brakes will impress you. You can even install it upsidedown for additional room.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

I didn't recognize the cut out area.

Good luck with it.

You should consider Hydro boost for your brake booster. It will allow you to change your #7 plug easily, and the brakes will impress you. You can even install it upsidedown for additional room.

I'll check into the Hydro boost.

Thanks Fred!

That looks bad ass!

Test fitting the headers.  They are long tube that were in a 80's Chevy truck.  Fit really good.  Just have to grind some material off the passenger side brace. I'll clean them up and recoat them.

Those are small primary tubes for that engine. Check the exhaust port size vs the tube size. The tube size should be at least the same size as the port. If it is smaller, you will rob a serious amount of HP from your engine.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Those are small primary tubes for that engine. Check the exhaust port size vs the tube size. The tube size should be at least the same size as the port. If it is smaller, you will rob a serious amount of HP from your engine.

Great advice, I'll measure them tomorrow.

I got them for free, as they came with the engine. So no loss if they are too small.

If the tubes are too small, you may be able to get a set of stainless ones on ebay. If you get them on ebay, you will probably need to modify them to fit past the frame. I bought a set of shortly headers and had to move the front tube on the driver's side to clear the engine cradle. The passenger's side had to move closer to the block to miss the frame. They have some nice Chinese stainless long tube headers for about $200. If you have someone modify them, measure the minimum distance between the head and the frame minus 1/8 inch. Chevelle headers are about as close as you can find.

If you are going to have a heater,.cut the core tubes about 1 inch from the firewall and flare them to keep the hoses from coming off. You can piece together hoses to fit. I put heat wrap on anything less than 6 inches from the engine and headers. You will have to reroute the driver's side brake line in front of the header then between the header and block then down the back of the cross member and across to the right side. You will have to route it so it is clear of the passenger's side header. I suggest putting heat wrap on it where it gets close to the headers.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Those are small primary tubes for that engine. Check the exhaust port size vs the tube size. The tube size should be at least the same size as the port. If it is smaller, you will rob a serious amount of HP from your engine.

Fred - I measured the header tube size and head exhaust port:

Head - Horizontal: 1.93in
Vertical: 1.69in

Header - Outside diameter: 1.74
Inside diameter: 1.59

I didn't even think to look as the guy I bought the setup up from said it was all together and running. So the header tube is round and the head is more square port.

What do you think?

I think you need a header with the inside diameter equal to the largest diameter of the exhaust port dimension. 2 inch ID would be good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/395051597049

My cooling system overflow tank pics



The lines have check valves so the air is expelled and the coolant Is drawn into the system. I used an early overflow tank. You could use a system from an LT1 car without the check valves.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

I think you need a header with the inside diameter equal to the largest diameter of the exhaust port dimension. 2 inch ID would be good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/395051597049

Those look good. What do you think about these Hedman headers? These are already ceramic coated.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hed-66002#overview

I don't really know what the target application is for this build, but there are a some things that apply across the board.

The elephant in the room is that the parts need to match each other and the application to both run decently and to get the best performance out of it.

I have not seen a tunnel ram build in quite some time (they were big during the Prostreet popularity times), but I doubt the designs have changed much.

A tunnel ram pretty much locks you into having a high revving motor as the mixtures will just not be good at lower rpms and fuel dropout is huge. To do that you need a high lift, long duration camshaft which will give lots overlap and further drop the low end power and idle characteristics.

To use the tunnel ram high flow needs you have to use big valve, big port volume heads to not overly restrict the high flow needs.

To get all the waste out you would need big tube headers of the right diameter and length dumping into a properly sized for diameter and length collector pipe.

Of course a high idle speed and high stall converter to top it off.

If you vary off of the style of build it will likely hurt performance and driveability.

There certainly are lots of mismatched combos out there in the community, no doubt, and I have seen quite a few. They are the ones on a slow cruise up a boulevard have to keep clearing it out with burst of rpm in neutral with a belch of black smoke and horrible smelling exhaust. Others were built primarily for show with little regard or care about whether anything works well together because that wasn't the point.

As I said, I don't know the target of the build so can't comment on anything specific. That is for the builder to decide. If someone wants a car the shows nice but is not really driven much, nothing wrong with that. If somebody wants to build something brutally fast but looks ugly, that's also just fine.

Of course amazing things can be done if you have enough bucks, knowledge, and resources to do it. I guess a factory 707hp Dodge Hellcat that is totally streetable, crazy fast, and meets modern emissions was unimaginable even 20 years ago. The factories have the resources to do things like this if they want to and think they will sell. The rest of us have a much harder time of getting all the right pieces in place to produce a stellar finished product.

There are some really good engine builders out there and if they are non specialized to class they are great source of help and parts. Some will not require themselves to build the engine even, maybe just be the parts from them. Others may want to do the precision machining, etc. The one I use is really flexible in that you get all the great advice, option to get the parts from them, option to have them do the machining, option to have them put it together option to have them tune it on their engine dyno. I chose to have them do the machining because they do a fantastic job and I got most of the parts from them to let them earn something off them for their help. Their reputation is based on high end drag and roundy round racing engines, mostly GM stuff, but as the owner says "the race stuff is fun and rewarding, but the over counter street stuff is what pays the bills". Wise man.

The Hedman parts are ceramic coated, and are $430 more than the Chinese stainless steel parts. They may require modification, and that would ruin the ceramic coating. The stainless steel can be modified without finish issues. You can have the stainless ones modified for what the difference in price between them.

You need an 18 inch extension of the collector beyond the supplied parts. It must be the same diameter as the collector. After the 18 inch extension you can reduce the diameter slightly.

Watch Engine Masters on Motortrend channel. They have done numerous programs on a multitude of combinations. There is at least one show on the tunnel ram.

I have a single plane Holley HP fuel injection system with rectangular intake ports on my 454, and I was told that it would be weak on the bottom end. The cam and intake "come on" at 2500 rpm. I have a 2500 rpm stall converter and it is completely drivable. If I stand on it, the engine revs to 2500 rpm, the converter flashes, and off it goes. My idle is 800 rpm, and as long as I do not stand on the loud pedal it drives like any other car.

booster wrote:

I don't really know what the target application is for this build, but there are a some things that apply across the board.

The elephant in the room is that the parts need to match each other and the application to both run decently and to get the best performance out of it.

I have not seen a tunnel ram build in quite some time (they were big during the Prostreet popularity times), but I doubt the designs have changed much.

A tunnel ram pretty much locks you into having a high revving motor as the mixtures will just not be good at lower rpms and fuel dropout is huge.  To do that you need a high lift, long duration camshaft which will give lots overlap and further drop the low end power and idle characteristics.  

To use the tunnel ram high flow needs you have to use big valve, big port volume heads to not overly restrict the high flow needs.

To get all the waste out you would need big tube headers of the right diameter and length dumping into a properly sized for diameter and length collector pipe.

Of course a  high idle speed and high stall converter to top it off.

If you vary off of the style of build it will likely hurt performance and driveability.

There certainly are lots of mismatched combos out there in the community, no doubt, and I have seen quite a few. They are the ones on a slow cruise up a boulevard have to keep clearing it out with burst of rpm in neutral with a belch of black smoke and horrible smelling exhaust.  Others were built primarily for show with little regard or care about whether anything works well together because that wasn't the point.

As I said, I don't know the target of the build so can't comment on anything specific.  That is for the builder to decide. If someone wants a car the shows nice but is not really driven much, nothing wrong with that.  If somebody wants to build something brutally fast but looks ugly, that's also just fine.

Of course amazing things can be done if you have enough bucks, knowledge, and resources to do it.  I guess a factory 707hp Dodge Hellcat that is totally streetable, crazy fast, and meets modern emissions was unimaginable even 20 years ago. The factories have the resources to do things like this if they want to and think they will sell.  The rest of us have a much harder time of getting all the right pieces in place to produce a stellar finished product.

There are some really good engine builders out there and if they are non specialized to class they are great source of help and parts.  Some will not require themselves to build the engine even, maybe just be the parts from them.  Others may want to do the precision machining, etc.  The one I use is really flexible in that you get all the great advice, option to get the parts from them, option to have them do the machining, option to have them put it together option to have them tune it on their engine dyno.  I chose to have them do the machining because they do a fantastic job and I got most of the parts from them to let them earn something off them for their help.  Their reputation is based on high end drag and roundy round racing engines, mostly GM stuff, but as the owner says "the race stuff is fun and rewarding, but the over counter street stuff is what pays the bills".  Wise man.

Great info, thanks!

My purpose is to build a bad ass street cruiser. Sure I may take it to the race track, but just for fun. I'm not looking for the quickest car, just a fun cruiser. I just got the engine back and installed. My builder built it shooting for 600ish hp. It's a 454 .60 over, 468, and AFR 305 heads. I had the rear end rebuilt with 3.73 gears. Transmission was also rebuilt, with that builder talking to the engine builder to make sure it is up to the power requirements.

As I mentioned in another post, the headers came with it. I didn't even think to look at them until Fred mentioned it. Now I'm trying to figure out which headers to go with. The ones I have fit in the bay, just had to do a slight modification to a frame cross member, but no other issues.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The Hedman parts are ceramic coated, and are $430 more than the Chinese stainless steel parts. They may require modification, and that would ruin the ceramic coating. The stainless steel can be modified without finish issues. You can have the stainless ones modified for what the difference in price between them.

You need an 18 inch extension of the collector beyond the supplied parts. It must be the same diameter as the collector. After the 18 inch extension you can reduce the diameter slightly.

Watch Engine Masters on Motortrend channel. They have done numerous programs on a multitude of combinations. There is at least one show on the tunnel ram.

I have a single plane Holley HP fuel injection system with rectangular intake ports on my 454, and I was told that it would be weak on the bottom end. The cam and intake "come on" at 2500 rpm. I have a 2500 rpm stall converter and it is completely drivable. If I stand on it, the engine revs to 2500 rpm, the converter flashes, and off it goes. My idle is 800 rpm, and as long as I do not stand on the loud pedal it drives like any other car.

Actually I think my transmission builder said I have a 2500 stall too.

Your stall requirement depends on the torque curve of the engine. You want the stall to coincide with the fat part of the torque curve. If is too low, the engine will bog off the line.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

I think you need a header with the inside diameter equal to the largest diameter of the exhaust port dimension. 2 inch ID would be good.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/395051597049

Fred - This looks like it could work/fit. It says fits the Nova/Impala cars. I have heard that the ones for Chevelle fit pretty good, is there much of a difference? Do you think these will work? I don't have anyone to modify the header if not. I can do what needs to be done to the car, as I trimmed the cross brace for the headers I have. Just worried about ordering them without knowing for sure.

If you do not know someone to modify them, I am sure a local speed shop could direct you to someone.

They may fit fairly well as is. When you buy anything that is supposed to be made for your car, there is always a chance that they will require modifications to fit properly. I have a set of shortly headers on my 92 OCC, and I had to put a dent in them so I could get the temp sensor for the gauge in the head. You must start somewhere, unless you want to get custom headers for $800.

All true

I'm still looking for the right set of headers.  These look like they might be an option.  Per the website they have a 1 7/8 primary tubes with 3 inch collector.  Reading the feedback, guys have put them in 69-72 Chevelle's with no issues. I need to take some measurements and see how they might fit.

Looking at the customer feedback pics, my main concern was the #7 primary tube and clearance with the steering shaft, but they might be ok.

They look a lot like the ones I have. If you get them, let me know how they fit. I had to have 4 tubes modified. The tube size is fairly close. Measure the distance between the head and frame on the passenger side. That was the biggest issue with mine. They also interfered with the suspension braces, and the #1, and 2 interefered with the back of the cross member. Are they stainless?

I took a couple of pics to show you the brake lines

Will do, good info. This is a challenge, I wish I had access to different headers to test fit!

BAD_WAG wrote:

Will do, good info.  This is a challenge, I wish I had access to different headers to test fit!  

That would be nice. No matter how nice they look, if they don't fit in the car, you can not use them.

I think you should have 2 inch ID primary tubes. Less than that and you are causing flow issues. If you want the most performance, learn the aerodynamic rules and follow them. Make sure the intake and heads are gasket matched too.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

BAD_WAG wrote:

Will do, good info.  This is a challenge, I wish I had access to different headers to test fit!  

That would be nice. No matter how nice they look, if they don't fit in the car, you can not use them.

I think you should have 2 inch ID primary tubes. Less than that and you are causing flow issues. If you want the most performance, learn the aerodynamic rules and follow them. Make sure the intake and heads are gasket matched too.

Agree, good catch by you on the other ones I have.  I guess I just had a brain dump and didn't even think to look at the size of them.  They fit the stock cast heads, but I bought bigger AFR heads.  I do need to refresh my memory on this stuff.  Haven't had to think about a lot of this building stuff in a long time.  Damn old age...

2 inch is best, although when I found these 1 7/8 is pretty damn close. Decisions, decisions...

I am generally not a huge fan of Motor Trend's tech articles, but this one is not bad at all in explaining the basics of header sizing. It gives calcs that you can do to get rough estimates or rpm range effective area and how to do them. I is written by a CarCraft writer.

Header sizing article link

I think the engine in question, based on the intake style and head design is going to like very high rpm ranges much more than anything lower. To get benefit in those ranges is probably going to take some long and large diameter tubes with the right collector sizing also if the general comments in the article are correct. That setup on big blocks is pretty common but sometimes harder to fit because of their size.

It is always interesting to me to see what the factories are using for exhaust manifolds on the current high output engines iike the Hellcat or the Vette engines as they are always very short and should be best at low rpms because of that. Of course these are street engines and need to have good manners at low rpm on the street. The high hp versions are being supercharger boosted, though, which is one of the best way to get big hp and low rpm with good driveability. I think the approx 650hp gm crate ls engine kit uses 9 pounds of boost only.

BAD_WAG wrote:

Fred Kiehl wrote:

BAD_WAG wrote:

Will do, good info.  This is a challenge, I wish I had access to different headers to test fit!  

That would be nice. No matter how nice they look, if they don't fit in the car, you can not use them.

I think you should have 2 inch ID primary tubes. Less than that and you are causing flow issues. If you want the most performance, learn the aerodynamic rules and follow them. Make sure the intake and heads are gasket matched too.

Agree, good catch by you on the other ones I have.  I guess I just had a brain dump and didn't even think to look at the size of them.  They fit the stock cast heads, but I bought bigger AFR heads.  I do need to refresh my memory on this stuff.  Haven't had to think about a lot of this building stuff in a long time.  Damn old age...

2 inch is best, although when I found these 1 7/8 is pretty damn close.  Decisions, decisions...

1 7/8 is still smaller than the 1.93. I would not use them.  You really need the 2 inch tubes.

booster wrote:

I am generally not a huge fan of Motor Trend's tech articles, but this one is not bad at all in explaining the basics of header sizing.  It gives calcs that you can do to get rough estimates or rpm range effective area and how to do them. I is written by a CarCraft writer.

Header sizing article link

I think the engine in question, based on the intake style and head design is going to like very high rpm ranges much more than anything lower.  To get benefit in those ranges is probably going to take some long and large diameter tubes with the right collector sizing also if the general comments in the article are correct.  That setup on big blocks is pretty common but sometimes harder to fit because of their size.

It is always interesting to me to see what the factories are using for exhaust manifolds on the current high output engines iike the Hellcat or the Vette engines as they are always very short and should be best at low rpms because of that.  Of course these are street engines and need to have good manners at low rpm on the street.  The high hp versions are being supercharger boosted, though, which is one of the best way to get big hp and low rpm with good driveability.  I think the approx 650hp gm crate ls engine kit uses 9 pounds of boost only.

Good article and info!

Fred Kiehl wrote:

BAD_WAG wrote:

Fred Kiehl wrote:

BAD_WAG wrote:

Will do, good info.  This is a challenge, I wish I had access to different headers to test fit!  

That would be nice. No matter how nice they look, if they don't fit in the car, you can not use them.

I think you should have 2 inch ID primary tubes. Less than that and you are causing flow issues. If you want the most performance, learn the aerodynamic rules and follow them. Make sure the intake and heads are gasket matched too.

Agree, good catch by you on the other ones I have.  I guess I just had a brain dump and didn't even think to look at the size of them.  They fit the stock cast heads, but I bought bigger AFR heads.  I do need to refresh my memory on this stuff.  Haven't had to think about a lot of this building stuff in a long time.  Damn old age...

2 inch is best, although when I found these 1 7/8 is pretty damn close.  Decisions, decisions...

1 7/8 is still smaller than the 1.93. I would not use them.  You really need the 2 inch tubes.

Yes, I fully realize 1 7/8 is smaller than 1.93. I just used that as why I even looked at those in the first place, as it's very close.

Agree, I need 2 inch.

Hey Fred - As I looked close at these headers, I wondered about the area I have circled. I contacted the seller and that is a weld joint. Which, I thought is very strange as in all the headers I have seen in my years, I don't recall seeing a weld joint right there.