TBI 350 Acting Up

Had a not so good morning with the wagon. I started it for the 1st time in 5 days today idled normally but once I got on the road I couldn't get past 20-30 mph and the car kept surging and sputtering. By the time I limped it home the check engine was on. I didn't pull the code yet (don't even know how). Also I did read this thread: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] but dunno if the same issues apply here.


-justin

Pulling the codes is pretty easy. All you have to do is get a paper clip and jump the A and B terminals on your OBD port on the bottom of your dash.

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Then turn your key to the ON position. The codes will show in the check engine light as a series of flashes.

So if you had a code 12, it would show as *flash* *pause* *flash* *flash*.

Good luck getting it sorted. Wish I could be more help

Justin, I'm going to take a guess. Knowing the temperature where you are, hadn't been driven in 5 days and the gas tank is probably on the low side, you may just need dry gas. Just a hunch, but give it a try.

Tom

Check to make sure your gas cap is there since stealing gas is getting more common and they dont usually put the cap
back on..
Jim Gordon

silverfox103 wrote:

Justin, I'm going to take a guess. Knowing the temperature where you are, hadn't been driven in 5 days and the gas tank is probably on the low side, you may just need dry gas. Just a hunch, but give it a try.

Tom

Have about half a tank. Put some dry gas in, diddnt do anything. Tried driving it, cant even get it above 10 now. Pulled the code, and if I did it right I think I got "44" which, according to: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is for a rich condition. These are the listed possible causes:

1) O2 sensor defective or lead shorted
2) Lean injectors (dirty or blocked)
3) Water in fuel
4) Exhaust leaks upstream of O2 sensor
5) Fuel pressure or volume too low
6) MAF sensor reading lower airflow than is actually present
7) Vacuum leaks
8 ) Incorrect or poorly calibrated PROM

Likely fuel pump. Sorry.

Speaking from experience with your exact symptoms.

jayoldschool wrote:

Likely fuel pump. Sorry.

Speaking from experience with your exact symptoms.

Anyone want a '93 Caprice?

I would agree with Jay, fuel pump, both my 91 and 93 RMW did the same thing last june.....

how much for the caprice?

buickestate wrote:

I would agree with Jay, fuel pump, both my 91 and 93 RMW did the same thing last june.....

how much for the caprice?

According to RockAuto, $52 for a new Delco pump. Thankfully, theres only about 10 gallons in the tank.

Yeah...sounds like the fuel pump too. It is not that bad to do if you have the time and a good spot to work. Spray bolt buster on the 4 tank strap mounting bolts a lot and give the stuff time to break all the rust off.

The hardest ones will be the two toward the front of the car. Just really make sure you spray them well and have a nice long extension and a little cheater bar.

Hopefully your sending unit lines are not super crusty and brittle too...be easy on them!
It helps if you have a gut (like I do) to help support the tank when you are removing and installing. Extra height.

You can do it!

Chris

Ok, still being hopeful that its not the fuel pump. I mentioned the situation to my father, he mentioned that it may be ice in the fuel line. The temps have been well under freezing for the past week. And the car hasnt been driven. Perhaps its just ice in the line?

I will go "no" on the ice in the fuel line. It's not the 1950s anymore. I have NEVER experienced ice in the fuel system since I started driving over 20 years ago. Our weather is just as bad as yours in the winter, and our temps get colder.

BTW, grab a milk crate to drop the tank onto. Perfect height, sturdy, and even has a handle to grab.

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Just one question thou. Is it normal for a fuel pump to just die? It never gave indication that it was on it way out, I drove it last week with zero issue and today, nothing.

it may just be the rubber hose between the fuel pump and the top of the sending unit......
how many miles on the car? The only fuel pump that died on me was at 165K

the other two times, it was that f'ing little rubber hose which I replaced with thinner wall diameter and hose clamps, cost about $1.50 plus the joy of dropping the tank.

I did a write up on here somewheres about the best way to do it.
Buy a couple of cans of PB blaster

+4 or 5 on it being the fuel pump. I had it happen on 3 of my wagons now.

129K. Thou, I think the fuel pump was done at about 119k. I'll have to check my notes.

Cadet57 wrote:

Just one question thou. Is it normal for a fuel pump to just die? It never gave indication that it was on it way out, I drove it last week with zero issue and today, nothing.

yes is the short answer.

The fact it starts leads me to think it's the hose not the pump.
On my 94 (the bad pump), we parked it fine and then NOTHING.

the other two (TBI cars), it would start and surge and you could BARELY keep it going.
Once while I was driving it, SNAP from cruising a steady 35 to buck shake stall. I managed to nurse it home 2 miles.
Third time it happened in the Mickey Ds drive thru while getting coffee on my way to meet Stingroo at the JY. Nursed it .5 miles home.

I remember that. That was the summer of FP love for Sprocket.

Come to think of it, I'd have much rather met you at the JY than how I actually did.

Stingroo wrote:

I remember that. That was the summer of FP love for Sprocket.

Come to think of it, I'd have much rather met you at the JY than how I actually did.

lol, word


here's the write up on dropping yer tank

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Alright. Since it looks like i'll be doing a fuel pump. Should I go ahead and replace the fuel sending unit too?

Cadet57 wrote:

Alright. Since it looks like i'll be doing a fuel pump. Should I go ahead and replace the fuel sending unit too?

no need to unless it's very rusty (should be fairly well protected up top though). They certainly are not cheap and dunno where you would get one.... The fuel pump is the big issue the rest of it look at the R&R sending unit thread referenced in the thread I posted

If the sender piping is really bad, I am willing to part with my spare for $65 shipped. It has a pump on it, which was working when removed. I would not trust a used pump. I replaced the hose, and a month later the pump went out. Get the AC Delco pump. The other brand pump quit after 1 month.

jayoldschool wrote:

BTW, grab a milk crate to drop the tank onto. Perfect height, sturdy, and even has a handle to grab.

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Dang! That is a good idea....

Well, went and checked my notes from the PO. Fuel sending unit was done a couple years ago at 119K, no mention of the pump. The tank straps were done last year. Thankfully. I'm hoping I won't need too much PB Blaster as the nuts look like this:

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As opposed to:
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Another question. Rockauto suggests the fuel pump wiring harness is replaced at the same time. Is that something I should do? I probably will since I'm in there, but if the harness is expensive I'd rather forgo it if I can.

You could get a fuel pressure test adapter from these guys: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I have heard it is difficult to install because it is a little longer than the OEM part that it replaces.

The harness is cheap, compared with removing and replacing the tank again. I would do it.

Just went and poked around some more. Fuel pump comes on when the car is started. Also, I don't think its a fuel issue as the TBI sprays the proper "cone" of fuel. On another note, it runs and idles a bit better today now that its warmed up. Also, heres a fancy video I made of the noise it makes at idle, its a bit quiet but you can hear it:

Is it surging on its own? Or are you feathering the gas pedal?

I know this is not the main problem likely...but is the PCV valve good?

brokecello wrote:

Is it surging on its own? Or are you feathering the gas pedal?

I know this is not the main problem likely...but is the PCV valve good?

It's surging on its own. Never did a PCV valve

Gotcha. Well for $4 I would go get one today to at least rule that out. Or pull the one you have off and see if its all clogged up (shake it and it should have a nice rattle to it...) It will cause some idle issues if it is bad....

both of my TBI cars idled the same way with the split rubber hose and they 'looked' like they were spraying a proper cone (but were not sending the full pressure).

No, I wouldn't bother with the harness, wires generally don't go bad.

The video sounds like a fuel pressure problem. The regulators seldom go bad, so I would suspect the hose or a weak pump. If the pump was replaced, and the hose was not, it is probably the hose. The White elephant had the exact same symptom, and it drove me nuts, because I did not want to take the tank down. I caught the Starship just before the hose burst. If it is the hose, get a really good fuel resistant hose to replace it.

Sprocket wrote:

both of my TBI cars idled the same way with the split rubber hose and they 'looked' like they were spraying a proper cone (but were not sending the full pressure).

No, I wouldn't bother with the harness, wires generally don't go bad.

Just so I know I'm buying the right parts. What hose is this? Have a part number by chance? If I'm going to do all this work I want it done right the first time.

Oh, and thanks to a wicked sweet discount code at Advance I'll be getting a fuel pump, sending unit and wiring harness for about $150

Justin can you switch gas caps and see if the surging stops.The reason I ask is my neighbors
TBI Chevy P/U was doing the exact same thing last summer.I walked back to my car,grabbed my
emergency gas cap and switched them and BADABOOM it runs smooth as glass.
IMHO
Flasheroo

Cadet57 wrote:

I got "44" which, according to: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is for a rich condition. These are the listed possible causes:

thats for a 3.8 Buick .. Are they the same for a 350 V8 wagon ?? Don't forget the common sense things.. FUEL filter ?? IF ya got a guage to see if ya have FP or even low FP.. You would be amazed what a bad fuel filter can do. MAF sensor on those cars ?? I wouldn't just throw parts at it because ya "think" its this or that

Grumpy wrote:

Cadet57 wrote:

I got "44" which, according to: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is for a rich condition. These are the listed possible causes:

thats for a 3.8 Buick .. Are they the same for a 350 V8 wagon ?? Don't forget the common sense things.. FUEL filter ?? IF ya got a guage to see if ya have FP or even low FP.. You would be amazed what a bad fuel filter can do. MAF sensor on those cars ?? I wouldn't just throw parts at it because ya "think" its this or that

I googled ALDL code 44 and thats what came up. I figured all ALDL codes were the same. An my mechanic neighbor came over. He said the same thing, fuel pump looks good, check the fuel filter. Just made my 5th trip to Autozone in 2 days, got me a new filter. Going to put it in now. I'm hopeful.

So the new PCV didn't help at all I take it. No other cracked hoses under the hood?

brokecello wrote:

So the new PCV didn't help at all I take it. No other cracked hoses under the hood?

Nope. But it sure is shiny

My fathers buddy has a set of GM fuel pressure gauges, we're gonna pick em up tomorrow and monday we're gonna test the pressure. Just so we can say for certain whether it is a fuel issue or not just so I'm not throwing a fuel pump at the car when its not.

the hose is about 1.5 inches long and has a really thick wall.
My local parts store didn't have anything as a direct replacement but tossed me a 6 inch piece with the same inside diameter. Which has now fixed TWO wagons Got enough for two more, lol

the hose is about 1.5 inches long and has a really thick wall.
My local parts store didn't have anything as a direct replacement but tossed me a 6 inch piece with the same inside diameter. Which has now fixed TWO wagons Got enough for two more, lol

the hose is about 1.5 inches long and has a really thick wall.
My local parts store didn't have anything as a direct replacement but tossed me a 6 inch piece with the same inside diameter. Which has now fixed TWO wagons Got enough for two more, lol

Triple post. That scared the crap out of me, Sprocket. My email thing wouldn't shut up.

Stingroo wrote:

Triple post. That scared the crap out of me, Sprocket. My email thing wouldn't shut up.

Lol mine just did the same thing!

Is this the little hose folks are refering to in this fuel pump picture?

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The little hose in the middle above the "O" ring.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The little hose in the middle above the "O" ring.

Yeah that one.

So all this time it could be that stupid little thing acting up? Dang...

Fuel pump. Still.

jayoldschool wrote:

Fuel pump. Still.

I'm not arguing that point. I just have to wait for payday...

either that lil ole piece or rubber of the fuel pump. either way you are dropping the tank

Sprocket wrote:

either that lil ole piece or rubber of the fuel pump. either way you are dropping the tank

Yeah. And at 129k, might as well just replace the pump since i'm in there. Oh well, hopefully this weekend I'll have a working wagon again.

Found the problem... one of the lines on the sending unit had a hole rusted into it. So, special order at Advance. Wagon should be running by next weekend