One of those days working on one of these cars

I now know what its like to have one thing after another go on these cars. I decided today to start work on rebuilding the steering on my Custom Cruiser. Wtih 112k on stock parts, and tires wearing through to the belts on the edges, something needs to be done. Lets not even talk about how poorly it handles.
I get to work starting on the PS. Get it lifted, wheel off and find the sway bar link snapped. That must have been that noise I heard last week. Anyways, notice you can move the wheel a good amount left and right, and as your doing that, the idller arm moves up and down. Damn thats a lot of play! Get the knuckle popped off, push old balls out, clean off arms. I started pressing the lower ball joint in, and it absolutely refused to go in straight! After and hour and a half, its finally in. I think I got these in first shot when I did my RMW last fall. So I got the upper ball in and run out to AZ to pickup the sway bar links and some steering parts I needed. They did not have the idler arm (big surprise), but had everything else I didn't really need or want.
Get the car back together (ran out of time to work on the PS) and go start it to move it out of the way of the other cars, and the damn thing will not start! It will catch for a second, then stall. I finally got it running by holding the pedal down a bit, and eventually got it to idle (if you can call the 350 rpm my scanner was reporting as ideling). It stalls constantly and of course no CEL is thrown.
So here is where I am at: 91 OCC with 1/4 of the front end fixed, runs like crap, stalls, and the front tires are garbage.
Anyone have any ideas on the running like crap? Here is what has been done in the last 2 months (and only a few hundred miles)
Front and rear brake shoes/pads.
Rear wheel cylinders
Plugs, wires (delco), cap and rotor
reman distributor from advance (old one had bad bearings)
New delco fuel pump 2 weeks ago.

The fuel pump took care of an intermittent problem with it running bad, no power, and felt like it was going to stall constantly. Actually, that problem existed since the very night I picked up the car from the seller. Should have known this would not be a smooth ride. I drove the car to where I started work on it today, it ran fine. Now this. I don't even know where to begin checking. I can't wait to get rid of one of my cars/trucks (or this thing if it pisses me off any more) so I have a spot to get my Roady out of storage, I really miss that car!

Thanks for letting me vent, I know these things happen with 20 year old cars but come on, all at once!

First I would think "ok, what did I work on or near that I may have bumped loose?" Did you crush a fuel line? Knock off a vacuum line? Unplau the MAP or CTS or something?

Retrace your steps today, and you may just find it's something simple.

We've all been there. And it IS frustrating. But you'll get it figured out.

Relax,this is just your wagons way of endearing itself to you.I know with my old cars the more
I fix,the better I feel and the more attached to my wagon I become.If this makes no sense,
give it some time as it will become clear very soon.
IMHO
Jim Gordon

toomanytoyz wrote:

First I would think "ok, what did I work on or near that I may have bumped loose?" Did you crush a fuel line? Knock off a vacuum line? Unplau the MAP or CTS or something?

Retrace your steps today, and you may just find it's something simple.

We've all been there. And it IS frustrating. But you'll get it figured out.

I have been trying to figure that out, but I didn't even open the hood before this started. I did check the fuel lines, but that wasn't it. Where is the MAP sensor on these engines? I went and ran a scan on it, saw a historic code, I think it was 33 pertaining to the MAP/MAF sensor. There's now MAF, so its gotta be the MAP.

Flasheroo wrote:

Relax,this is just your wagons way of endearing itself to you.I know with my old cars the more
I fix,the better I feel and the more attached to my wagon I become.If this makes no sense,
give it some time as it will become clear very soon.
IMHO
Jim Gordon

It makes perfect sense, I have spent so much time working on my 1A2 that I can't imagine selling it. I'm just frustrated with this one because I want it to be something it never will be. I don't even really drive it too much because of the L03. Its hard going from an LT1 down to that, especially if you have a lead foot . That and the paint is shot and I won't have the funds to take care of that for a long time.

MAP sensor is on the firewall to the passenger side of the airbox. At least you got a code. Mine acted up for about 6 months, and no code. Turned out to be the ground by the thermostat.

Check the switch in the power steering line. It raises the idle when the steering is being used. You were working on the steering, so that would be the first place I would look.

I would also check the timing, the distributor may have moved. You worked on that too.

I have so much time and money in the White Elephant, that I can not afford to sell it for what I paid for it until I put at least 10K miles on it. The latest is an engine swap, then an oil pump for the "new" engine. I lost 20 quarts of oil before I figured out what was the problem. Then a brake pad self distructed and cost me a hub. While there, I noticed some shiny metal, and a disintegrating bushing on the upper control arm.

The Starship is almost in the same category. It has had a droopy DS front corner. I replaced most of the front end parts and could not get the brakes to bleed. I took it to my new mechanic, who found the PS hub loose (read: "unsafe at any speed"), I ended up rebuilding almost the whole front suspension including U/L ball joints, tierods, centerlink, idler arm, sway bar w/ends, drop spindles, springs, and hubs. I found out as I was buttoning it up (I noticed that something was not right), that I only needed the spindles, hubs and the sway bar, which was bent. And that is just the latest episode.

I was about to write that they are both working for the time being, but I do not want to cause them to act up. They can hear me. I bought 2 so that I would have one to drive when the other is being worked on, but when one is in the garage, the other goes in for a sympathy visit.

Well that sucks sure hope you get her running soon.

First thing I always check on my wagon and other cars is the GAS CAP!Is it installed properly
and is the sealing gasket doing what it is suppose to do?I am amazes at how many times the problem was a simple easy to install gsa cap.
IMHO
Jim Gordon

Flasheroo wrote:

First thing I always check on my wagon and other cars is the GAS CAP!Is it installed properly
and is the sealing gasket doing what it is suppose to do?I am amazes at how many times the problem was a simple easy to install gsa cap.
IMHO
Jim Gordon

GOing to call BS on this myth. The o-ring broke on my OCC and I ran it unsealed for over 6 months with no CEL or any change in performance.
An LT-1 would also not make a difference as my son forgot to put the gas cap back on one night at a fill up and I drove 400 miles over 2 weeks with no noticible change in performance (ie no cap for 400 miles).


When you changed the fuel pump did you replace that stubby piece of hose that goes from the pump to the sending unit. I've had two split on me now and it behaves exactly like you are saying. It stumbles/stalls unless you keep you foot on the accelerator and it surgres up and down.
as you are spraying 80% of your gas back into the tank.......

I learned this AFTER my first fuel pump swap..

^^^ The White Elephant had that as its first problem. Cost me a ton before I figured it out (last possible thing I could check). I caught the Starship just before it split...bulging.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

MAP sensor is on the firewall to the passenger side of the airbox. At least you got a code. Mine acted up for about 6 months, and no code. Turned out to be the ground by the thermostat.

Check the switch in the power steering line. It raises the idle when the steering is being used. You were working on the steering, so that would be the first place I would look.

I would also check the timing, the distributor may have moved. You worked on that too.

I have so much time and money in the White Elephant, that I can not afford to sell it for what I paid for it until I put at least 10K miles on it. The latest is an engine swap, then an oil pump for the "new" engine. I lost 20 quarts of oil before I figured out what was the problem. Then a brake pad self distructed and cost me a hub. While there, I noticed some shiny metal, and a disintegrating bushing on the upper control arm.

The Starship is almost in the same category. It has had a droopy DS front corner. I replaced most of the front end parts and could not get the brakes to bleed. I took it to my new mechanic, who found the PS hub loose (read: "unsafe at any speed"), I ended up rebuilding almost the whole front suspension including U/L ball joints, tierods, centerlink, idler arm, sway bar w/ends, drop spindles, springs, and hubs. I found out as I was buttoning it up (I noticed that something was not right), that I only needed the spindles, hubs and the sway bar, which was bent. And that is just the latest episode.

I was about to write that they are both working for the time being, but I do not want to cause them to act up. They can hear me. I bought 2 so that I would have one to drive when the other is being worked on, but when one is in the garage, the other goes in for a sympathy visit.

It's getting close to that with this car. The funny this is I thought to myself when I pulled into the driveway to work on it "damn this thing is running great with that new pump". That was my first mistake LOL. I'll have to check some things out today (if it stops raining).

Sprocket wrote:

Flasheroo wrote:

First thing I always check on my wagon and other cars is the GAS CAP!Is it installed properly
and is the sealing gasket doing what it is suppose to do?I am amazes at how many times the problem was a simple easy to install gsa cap.
IMHO
Jim Gordon

GOing to call BS on this myth. The o-ring broke on my OCC and I ran it unsealed for over 6 months with no CEL or any change in performance.
An LT-1 would also not make a difference as my son forgot to put the gas cap back on one night at a fill up and I drove 400 miles over 2 weeks with no noticible change in performance (ie no cap for 400 miles).


When you changed the fuel pump did you replace that stubby piece of hose that goes from the pump to the sending unit. I've had two split on me now and it behaves exactly like you are saying. It stumbles/stalls unless you keep you foot on the accelerator and it surgres up and down.
as you are spraying 80% of your gas back into the tank.......

I learned this AFTER my first fuel pump swap..

Yup, replaced the piece of line too. Really don't want to have to drop the tank more than once. I took a video of it "running" as I had no help to check the spray pattern, and it looked ok to me. I think I'll post it later. As far as the gas cap goes, I have never had that affect any of my OBD I cars. My Riv, being OBD II, throws a check engine light for things like that constantly.

I'd check for cracked/broke/missing vacuum lines. When I did my intake manifold gaskets last year we forogt to plug the MAP line back in and it did the same exact thing with a code 33. I ended up swapping all my old crap with tubing from A-zone.

Made some progress. Went out and cleaned the connections to the MAP, checked the vac hose, no cracks or leaks. I also cleaned the ground connections on the T-stat housing. The car starts up and idles now!
I noticed something today when I took it out for a ride. With the radio off (a rare sight to see) I can hear what is probably a vac leak in the dash. If you hit the gas from idle (or even cruising) you can hear a sound similar to what you hear when you release air from a compressor tank (thats the only way I can describe it). Its not a hiss like a leak. I am going to try replacing the check valve on the front of the throttle body, I think Fred mentioned that fails in one of my other posts. Wonder if that had anything to do with any of my problems.

Thanks for the input guys!

Man what fun. Sorry to hear about all your issue but glad you seem to be making progress.

As for the CE light, a loose or leaking gas cap with trip the light on OBD2 cars...1996. I know for a fact that's true, but on yours it should not be an issue.

Good luck and keep us in the loop!

-Mike

95BRMW wrote:

Made some progress. Went out and cleaned the connections to the MAP, checked the vac hose, no cracks or leaks. I also cleaned the ground connections on the T-stat housing. The car starts up and idles now!
I noticed something today when I took it out for a ride. With the radio off (a rare sight to see) I can hear what is probably a vac leak in the dash. If you hit the gas from idle (or even cruising) you can hear a sound similar to what you hear when you release air from a compressor tank (thats the only way I can describe it). Its not a hiss like a leak. I am going to try replacing the check valve on the front of the throttle body, I think Fred mentioned that fails in one of my other posts. Wonder if that had anything to do with any of my problems.

Thanks for the input guys!

It is nice to have it fixed, but too bad you didn't change one thing at a time and test it. Now you do not know what actually fixed it.

While it runs, it is back to its old tricks. I still get the hesitation mentioned in the other thread, but at times its bad enough where it feels like its going to stall. I tried disconnecting the line to the climate control and plugged the port with a cap, no difference. I guess next step is to replace all the vac lines. After 20 years it probably couldn't hurt.

Did you check the idle bump switch on the power steering line?

I have a 75 fire bird siting around, I hated changing my gas in the wagon with the dump key so I put the bird gas cap in it .I noticed it worked better with idle, I guess I had vapor lock and did not know it.

listen to Fred he knows his stuff. He saved me big bucks on my wagon. He gave me a list of step by step things to do with it now it runs like a champ. Thanks again.

I bought my 91 OCC 7 years ago next month and it has always had a very faint hsss noise
when driving with all the creature comforts and the radio turned off.Its only noticable with
the windows up at lower vehicle speeds on smooth roads and I always thought it was normal
for cars with automatic climate control.I cant say that I have noticed it with my 95 RMW but
will listen for it.Never thought anything was wrong because the car runs great and gets good
gas mileage.
Jim Gordon

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Did you check the idle bump switch on the power steering line?

Completely forgot to check it, I'll check that out.

I checked the switch on the PS line as Fred has mentioned. Its still intact and I cleaned the connector. I finished the front end rebuild because it was bothering me being only half done, even though the car runs like crap at times. WOW what a difference it made! I didn't know the steering could be so tight on one of these cars.
I still have to replace the vac lines, bought the parts just need to get in there. I may have overlooked a problem and am not sure if it can be contributing to my problems. The rear intake manifold is leaking oil like crazy to the point where it drips anywhere you park it. The bell housing is soaked, and the pan on the tranny and engine is soaked. Aside from making a mess, and changing my oil for me automatically, can this cause any of my above issues?

you mean I could rid of that 90 degree of play in the wheel???? How would have thought!
I need to do my OCC really bad.

If the intake is leaking that bad you might be sucking air through it too and that would cause all sorts of performance issues....

Seriously? I figured that was just "there".

The intake oil leak is probably from the silicone sealer being disturbed while installing the manifold. It should not cause any running problems. When I swapped the 5.7 into the White Elephant, I messed the silicone up and it leaked like a sieve. The engine ran just fine.

The occurance of the poor running may be coincidental with front suspension repair. Even if you did not do the front suspension work, it may still have acted up. I would treat them as seperate events.

I doubt the oil leak has anything to do with it. My '91 leaked like that all the time I owned and never missed a beat.

I think your issue is sounds electrical, meaning in the engine control system..timing and fuel trim.

When I bought my RMW('91 L03) it would not pull itself out of a parking place it ran so bad. I started with the basics and got as far as checking the timing and found the problem. The timing 10 degrees AFTER TDC. So, I would be interested to see what the ECM is doing to the timing and if the distributor is doing what it should.

The only other issue I ever had was an intermittent high idle. It finally turned on the CEL for a TPS voltage out of range code. I think I waited long enough to repair it that it actually did start stalling now and then.

Otherwise the engine should run smoothly at all times.

I'm pretty sure TBI engines use distributor signal to inform the ECM of engine RPM and MAP pressure to indicate load. If it were me and you can't resolve this problem easily then I would swap a used MAP sensor and then a distributor until you find what makes it straighten out.

It's a bummer GM made it so difficult to check fuel pressure on those, because that's a cornerstone of the diagnostic process on any EFI vehicle.

You can get a tap for the pressure line from:

http://marine-performance-parts.com/cfmtechfuelpsiguageadaptorforgmtbi2843505774.aspx

From what I have heard, they are a little difficult to install due to being a little longer than the adapter they replace. With a little bending of the fuel line to give you some extra distance, it should work.

I swapped out the MAP sensor with one off lynol's OCC, no difference. Today it dawned on me one thing I forgot about. I had swapped out the EGR valve with one from the yard a few weeks ago. The original one had a torn diaphragm and I figured I would get one while I was there. I went and unplugged the vac line to the EGR and capped off the vac line and took it out for a ride. My problems vanished! No more hesitation or attempting to stall, and the hesitation is ever so slightly noticeable (back to how it was when I got it). I guess I picked up either the wrong EGR or a bad one (what did I expect for $5?). So tomorrow I'll install a new one and see where that takes me. Thanks for the input guys.