Modifying the L05 motor?

So, I've noticed a bunch of L05s, but the modding potential has always kinda scared me... though it is just a standard Generation 1 Small Block Chevy, right?
at that point, I assume nearly all the Small Block Chevy upgrade parts work?

I'm not too familiar with them.

They are not quite all equal. I have a 1970 gm 400 block replacing a 1993 350 block. There was a difference in the lifter design, which was not interchangable, flat vs rollers, as well as the provision. to keep them aligned.

You'll need to keep specific application in mind to YOUR block as you go along. If you are on the Summit site, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] make sure you use the application feature that shows up with each part you are selecting. Wisest not to assume anything, but get proof.


Dave

Here is a site that will have a lot of information for you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Another site with a lot of good information is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not everthing fits, and some of the things that apparently fit, require other different parts to make them work together correctly.

I am looking at a number of add-ons myself, and the B-body cars require some modification to the intake manifolds to make them work. The major one is the distributor hole. There are no aftermarket intake manifolds that have the larger hole as a standard item. You have to build up the back of the manifold with aluminum then bore it out, and make the top distributor mounting surface level with the original surface. I was reading a little about the intake manifold. If you are going to use a TBI, the best seems to be the Holley zz4 with an adapter plate. You can use a larger TBI, modify yours to work better, or use a larger one and modify it to work better. You have to have a manifold that allows for the EGR as well, or program it out.

There is a lot of info available. Some of the items are rather inexpensive, like a used LT1 cam.

probably better off to buy a 5.3 ls engine and matching trans with harness etc,. and set it in there,.it,d be stronger and more fuel efficient and reliable
JM2c

The 5.3 would not give you the torque you like. Better you should use an LQ9. They are a lot stronger, and just as fuel efficient.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The 5.3 would not give you the torque you like. Better you should use an LQ9. They are a lot stronger, and just as fuel efficient.

Bullshit,.

Quote :

Rated at a low of 285 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque, the 5.3L combined an iron block with efficient aluminum heads and a static compression ratio of 9.5:1

Nick

I bet it revs a lot higher to get those figures.

Here is all the info on most of the engines you would consider: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Fred is correct on the distributor hole being larger on the B-body engines, It was to allow the distributor to be pulled while still in the car. The way the cowl overhangs, the small hole distributor does not allow enough angle to get the dizzie cleared, unless the big hole is there so you can tip it over more.

Assuming what you end up buying is a small hole aftermarket manifold, what I had to do was add the new manifold back on, with the dizzie already through the hole. It's best to make it a two man job, so that you can actually seal it up without smearing the bead of sealant all over hell and end up having oil leaks as a result. It's hard to hold both pieces for accurate placement by yourself.

IIRC, I tried to load the new motor in the bay with the manifold and dizzie shaft on, but couldn't clear the cowl that way either. Plan "C" was finally load the block minus the manifold as mentioned above. This was with the hood off by the way.

couldn't you just change out to a different distributor?

The point is If you go to an after market manifold, you will be forced to buy a new distributor, so yes you can buy a new one to match. Most of us don't have the ability to build up, then rebore as Fred was suggesting. At least I didn't have the ability.

More likely what will happen is thta someone will buy a new small bore aftermarket manifold, and get a matching dizzie at the same time.

The stock GM TBI manifold for our cars has a different, much larger hole and the stock distributor has a matching larger flange ring on it.

Any after market manifold I've seen " so far" required the small flange on it.

My point was more on what it took to assemble it, once you have it.

aha, ok.

thanks.

I'll look into it a bit more.
I mean, plenty of people are making big power with Gen 1 Small Block Chevys.
and, in MA, you could swap for a carburetter as there's no emissions checking for older cars now.

though, for driveability purposes, I probably wouldn't... but I could.

there's also plenty of bolt-on EFI systems like FAST, Edelbrock, Accel, etc... that are programmable.

You are still stuck with the distributor problem. I bought a stock manifold, and am going to examine an aftermarket one to determine if it can be bored with out building up the back edge. If not, I am going to have a guy I know build it up until it will take the boring without risking strength. It may be possible to just open up the front, and turn down the body of the distributor to fit the smaller hole, because I believe the distributor is shorter as well. I am going to experiment a little. IF I can make the hole an oval, and get enough clearance, I would not have to do as much material removal on the manifold. It is not as pretty as a nice round hole, but it could work.

so, you're talking about the hole in the block for the dizzy?

I am referring to the aftermarket manifolds all having the smaller hole, and unless you can get the distributor in the hole you have the same problem that GM solved by making the hole larger, and the diameter of the distributor base larger as well. No matter what aftermarket manifold you get, it will have the small hole. You will have to modify it, or screw around with installing the distributor in the manifold and then installing them together on the engine. It has nothing to do with the block.

or get an aftermarket distributor

What hasn't yet been said is that the reason the distributor hole is large on the TBI B-car engines is to allow you to remove the distributor without removing the intake manifold. Firewall/cowl clearance is the problem. In fact it was a problem on every single car that the LT1 went into - which is probably why the LT1 went to the optispark, amongst other reasons.

I'm with Nick. 5.3 LS motor, and the reason why is that they are CHEAP. There are a zillion of them out there and they don't break. All the rodder guys want the 5.7 and 6.0 motors. One LS swap shop I talked to said they can get 5.3 LS engines DRESSED, all day long for $500 or less. You can get the 4L60Es behind those for a couple hundred more, so why not buy the whole thing and just swap it in. For $800 you can have a low mileage newer drivetrain with more power and great fuel economy. Figure $1000 for swap costs and for $1800 you have a newer powertrain!

while that's all well and good, I'd like to focus on the potential of the Gen 1 motor.

though if you can get an 6.0L LSX installed for $1800... that's certainly better than the $3000 for a Holley Avenger EFI system.

Sticking with the Gen 1 motors, how difficult is it to swap an L98 TPI motor in?

those have to be dirt cheap these days

chapel wrote:

while that's all well and good, I'd like to focus on the potential of the Gen 1 motor.

though if you can get an 6.0L LSX installed for $1800... that's certainly better than the $3000 for a Holley Avenger EFI system.

Sticking with the Gen 1 motors, how difficult is it to swap an L98 TPI motor in?

those have to be dirt cheap these days

you certainly do know your motors for a guy who professes to not know anything,.
some of your terminology is quite informed,.using the slang word for a distributor,.
and the obvious statements and questions and references to other motors etc,.like the l98,.
yet

Quote :

but the modding potential has always kinda scared me...

you shy away from idea's regarding a late model swap,.
.

Quote :

I've owned BMWs, Audis, VWs, Subarus, Saabs, Mitsubishis, etc... I've worked for Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, BMW and Acura as an IT guy over the years..

and thats quite a pedigree for a 30 year old,. i,m quite jealous,. 5 major car companies,. heck most folks are lucky to have worked at one possibly two,.interesting how your mother had a gto,. you remembered so well it had ram air and a 4speed,. , her taking the wagon to have the motor swapped,.? not many people have a mother thats so into cars,.yet somehow you profess not to know anything about gen1 small block chevies,.?? i dunno,. you kidding really?
well go ahead post up about your subie wagon ,crovo will have a hardon,.


Nick

phantom 309 wrote:

you certainly do know your motors for a guy who professes to not know anything,.
some of your terminology is quite informed,.using the slang word for a distributor,.

I'm not saying I'm not uninformed or know nothing, but I know nothing of the L05 motor in particular or how it's related to say a 66 327/350 Corvette...
I only know that it's a Gen 1 SBC and I do know that there are many changes over the years. I'm sure it shares almost nothing with a 55 265 aside from the basic block and architecture.

I'm actually rather well adept at working on cars and I know quite a bit about all General Motors cars.

Quote :

and the obvious statements and questions and references to other motors etc,.like the l98,.
yet

Quote :

but the modding potential has always kinda scared me...

you shy away from idea's regarding a late model swap,.

I'm not shying away from them, that just isn't the point of my thread. If I wanted to know about LS swaps, I'd have made an LS swap thread.

Quote :

I,m confused about you,and yet your questions seem so vaguely familiar as does your way of posting,..

Quote :

I've owned BMWs, Audis, VWs, Subarus, Saabs, Mitsubishis, etc... I've worked for Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, BMW and Acura as an IT guy over the years..

and thats quite a pedigree for a 30 year old,. i,m quite jealous,. 5 major car companies,. heck most folks are lucky to have worked at one possibly two,.

I worked for a dealer chain that included all of those brands for 5 years.

Quote :

interesting how your mother had a gto,. you remembered so well the option code for it, her taking the wagon to have the motor swapped,.? not many people have a mother thats so into cars,.yet somehow you profess not to know anything about gen1 small block chevies,.
time will tell,.

Nick

I'm not quite sure what you're accusing me of?

my mom was really into cars and as a result, I was as well. Her GTO and her street racing in the late 60s and early 70s were legend around here. Her friends would tell me of her escapades in the 'Marshland drags'. In fact, her main competitor of the day is our family body guy and the guy who did her motor swap in the 86. We've spoken at length of her GTO and that she was a feared competitor in the Marshlands (Route 107 between Saugus and Revere)

I've been into the technical details of cars forever. I've also done my own motor swaps, big upgrades, etc... I've done a lot of technical writing for vehicle service manuals as well... and I've even written for some magazines. I also have an eidetic memory, so I remember nearly every detail about everything I've ever read or been told, especially when numbers are involved.

So, if you guys had another 'problem member' that you think I am... I can assure you that I am not that person.

chapel wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

you certainly do know your motors for a guy who professes to not know anything,.
some of your terminology is quite informed,.using the slang word for a distributor,.

I'm not saying I'm not uninformed or know nothing, but I know nothing of the L05 motor in particular or how it's related to say a 66 327/350 Corvette...
I only know that it's a Gen 1 SBC and I do know that there are many changes over the years. I'm sure it shares almost nothing with a 55 265 aside from the basic block and architecture.

I'm actually rather well adept at working on cars and I know quite a bit about all General Motors cars.

Quote :

and the obvious statements and questions and references to other motors etc,.like the l98,.
yet

Quote :

but the modding potential has always kinda scared me...

you shy away from idea's regarding a late model swap,.

I'm not shying away from them, that just isn't the point of my thread. If I wanted to know about LS swaps, I'd have made an LS swap thread.

Quote :

I,m confused about you,and yet your questions seem so vaguely familiar as does your way of posting,..

Quote :

I've owned BMWs, Audis, VWs, Subarus, Saabs, Mitsubishis, etc... I've worked for Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini, BMW and Acura as an IT guy over the years..

and thats quite a pedigree for a 30 year old,. i,m quite jealous,. 5 major car companies,. heck most folks are lucky to have worked at one possibly two,.

I worked for a dealer chain that included all of those brands for 5 years.

Quote :

interesting how your mother had a gto,. you remembered so well the option code for it, her taking the wagon to have the motor swapped,.? not many people have a mother thats so into cars,.yet somehow you profess not to know anything about gen1 small block chevies,.
time will tell,.

Nick

I'm not quite sure what you're accusing me of?

my mom was really into cars and as a result, I was as well. Her GTO and her street racing in the late 60s and early 70s were legend around here. Her friends would tell me of her escapades in the 'Marshland drags'. In fact, her main competitor of the day is our family body guy and the guy who did her motor swap in the 86. We've spoken at length of her GTO and that she was a feared competitor in the Marshlands (Route 107 between Saugus and Revere)

I've been into the technical details of cars forever. I've also done my own motor swaps, big upgrades, etc... I've done a lot of technical writing for vehicle service manuals as well... and I've even written for some magazines. I also have an eidetic memory, so I remember nearly every detail about everything I've ever read or been told, especially when numbers are involved.

So, if you guys had another 'problem member' that you think I am... I can assure you that I am not that person.

I,m not accusing you of anything in particular,. it,s just odd,. you profess now to be quite adept at working on cars, you come from a car oriented background, you,ve written tech articles service manuals and mention you have been into the technical details of cars for years even performing motor swaps etc,.,. but you seem to not know anything about gen1 chevies, yet you are an IT guy,. i'll bet you are well read,.and consequently i think that with your background, and your smarts,. 20 mins would net you all you need to know to fill in the gaps,.or in some strange sort of way you are asking exactly the "right" questions to get the answers you already know.
With your car savvy,. it just seems very strange to me,.and then to want to limit yourself with all your years of knowledge of technical details and motor swaps and big upgrades,. to something that is old ineffecient technology,. well it,s puzzling to say the least,.
but the guys here will be glad to help,..

Nick

ok, thanks.

Chapel, I stuck an antiquated 92 TPI system on a 1970 block into a 1993 wagon, Simply because that's what floated my boat. always thought the look of the TPI system was cool.

I could have gone to "new designs" but that's not what I was/am into then or now. For less money and headache, I could have gone over to a Holley Street Ram system. It would have needed more top end horsepower, but I was going for low end grunt. Nor did I give crap about if others agreed that I was doing the right thing. It's what I wanted.


Everybody's different, and yes, we'd be glad to be of help where we can. If you want to learn form others errors, we've made plenty of them around here.

I love learning from other people's mistakes
that's why I like old cars.

Before you start I will warn you this is a major change to your car and will take a lot of work and time.

You can start out with a partial TPI. Runners, plenum, base, 22# injectors, the bolts for the runners and from the base to the heads. Most of the parts can be found doing local searches, local parts stores or on FEEBAY

Here is a list of what you will need:


HELMS Manual you will need this!!!!!
Sensors & Electrical
#25036979 x2 Coolant Sensor & MAT sensor (You can use one from your TBI)
#16137039 MAP Sensor (You can use your TBI map sensor it's the same part #)
#10456019 Knock sensor for 305 TPI (You must change this!)
#25036979 IAC Valve (The TBI IAC look's the same, But I have not checked if it is the same PN as the TPI one)
ECM #1227730 and a PROM for a Speed Density 90-92 TPI, V6 ECM's are the same (I got mine from a rolled 92 Firebird at the junkyard) but you will have to change the PROM to one for you engine size the V6 Prom will not work. (The ECM will have the PN on the front, so look before you buy)
#12080890 1990 TPI Engine Harness (Only $241 from Dal Lambert)
I chose the GM engine harness simply because it is the most complete. There are other choices, Painless Wiring makes a harness which costs $10 more form Summit, but does not come with half the wires and connections that you will need. If you were putting a TPI in a hot rod with no AC, wipers, Gauges etc it would be fine. The other choice is to send your TBI harness to Howell to be converted to a TPI harness, this is just as good but it will take them 2 weeks to do.
Throttle Position Sensor (Got mine form a junkyard V6 MPFI)

(HIGHLY recommended) Dual Fans. If you are changing to dual fans you will also need:


An extra fan relay just like the one on the driver side firewall, which is identical to the fuel pump, relay next to it. The part number is printed on the top of the relay. (They are all the same)
Dual fan supports, the part that is on top of the radiator which holds the fans in place, as well as the bottom dual fan support.

Misc.:


The fuel lines are essential you will be going from 12-14 psi fuel pressure to about 50 and the TBI fuel lines will not cut it!


Metal fuel and return line from fuel rails to rubber fuel and return lines, which then go to the metal fuel lines in the chassis.
Metal fuel line which goes from the in tank fuel pump to the fuel line in the chassis.

Here are the PN's:


#10055874 & #10055875 Fuel pipes from fuel rail to rubber fuel lines.
These are the rubber fuel lines from the fuel pipes to the chassis fuel lines, as well as the high-pressure pipe/hose from the fuel pump to the chassis fuel delivery line (I had to change this, the part may be the same one form a V6 car).
#10038113 #10113094 #14089403 (I don't know which is which).


TPI fuel pump. You can use a MPFI V6 pump but it is such a pain to change I recommend a new Walbro in tank.
Fuel pump sending unit from a TPI car or a MPFI V6 (I got it from the junk yard)
#10148097 Complete TPI Gasket Set
#10163822 Throttle Cable (TPI) the TBI is too short
If you have an Auto you will need to change the TV kickdown cable, and if you have cruise control you will have to change the cable as well.

You may not need all of the following:


#10077566 Throttle Bracket on side of Plenum
#17113544 Injector O-Ring set (top and bottom)
#10096141 MAP Sensor mounting Bracket
#10105251 Ducting from air cleaner to TB
#11514149 x4 Bolt, attaches (1) MAP housing to Plenum (3) Throttle bracket to Plenum
#14088537 Fitting for side of plenum (EGR)
#14082470 x2 Fitting for side of plenum (FPR and MAP)
TPI Air cleaner assembly (Junk yard, they are the same for the V6 Camaros)

You will also need lots of new hoses. This is a fairly complete list. but some things MAY be left out.

Procedure

First disconnect the battery and then proceed to remove the TBI air cleaner assembly.

Unplug all the TBI sensors and find the Engine harness. Caution don't get confused with the accessories harness, don't go nuts and just disconnect everything just what is part of the engine harness.

You will have to disconnect:


The wires at the starter, knock sensor and fan switch (both on pass side of the engine)
The bolt's on the back of each cylinder head that are grounds, you will need to remove the bolt to free the grounds from the harness on each side.
Unscrew and remove the bulkhead connector (big black thing that goes from the harness to the drivers side firewall, you will need a screwdriver.
TBI Electronic Spark Control, fuel pump relay and fan relay. These are all located on the driver's side firewall. The ESC you can remove you will not use this for the TPI.
The connectors from the charcoal canister, brake proportion valve located under the master cylinder and the connector from the power steering pump (You will not need to connect anything here, at least my TPI harness did not come with a connector.
The oxygen sensor, temp sensor (on the side of the driver cyl head) as well as the connector from the oil pressure-sending unit and under the car the VSS sensor and the park neutral switch.
The TBI fuel injectors have to be unplugged from the harness as well as the TPS and IAC valve as well as the distributor.
The two connectors for the smog pump.
Remove the spark plug wires

Under the dash on the passenger side remove the upper and right kick panel. Lower the ECM and disconnect the harness. Remove the clip that holds the harness to the fender and pull the harness form the engine bay up, store the clip you will need it to secure the new harness to the fender. Don't throw the harness away keep it handy you will might need it as a reference.

Remove the distributor, mark it so you can put it back in the exact same position.

Now you can start removing the TBI. Relieve the pressure from the fuel lines and remove them, fuel might start to leak from the open fuel line so attach the new TPI fuel lines and move to a high place on the strut tower to stop leaking, you might need a jar.

You don't have to take the TBI off the intake manifold. Remove the bolts that hold the intake manifold to the cylinder heads (if you plan of reusing the TBI manifold remove the bolts in the reverse order of the torque sequence in your helm manual to ensure that you don't warp it. You will have to pry the manifold off with a big screwdriver or a crow bar.

Clean the gasket residue from where the cylinder heads meet the intake manifold and where the intake manifold meets the block in the front and back.

You might have to remove the alternator to remove the driver side valve cover as well as the accessory brackets to remove the intake manifold and install the fuel lines. When I did this I changed the camshaft and the heads so I don't remember if you need to remove these or not.

NOTE: You don't have to do everything in this order.

Ok once you have removed the TBI and TBI harness, you can proceed to install the TPI. I started with the TPI base. I used some contact cement to glue the new gaskets to the cyl heads and a 1/2 inch coat of RED RTV sealant on the front and back ledges of the engine to seal the manifold. Torque it down to the Helm manual specs. Next I presented the new harness into the engine bay, by just laying the different branches in the general area of where they are supposed to go. Connect the harness grounds on the rear of each cyl head. Bolt the runners to the intake manifold and then go on with the injectors and fuel rails, the Helm manual recommends you put a little engine oil on the o-rings before you install the injectors. Put the distributor back into place (Be Careful!! try to put it back into the same position it was when you removed it), and you can proceed with the plenum and TB. At this point you can connect all the jumpers from the new harness to the sensors.

What goes where?

Intake Manifold
At the very front you have a metal fitting which is where coolant comes out of the manifold. From there is should go to the TB but I routed it straight to the heater switch

On the Drivers side half way down the manifold, between the two sets of runners there is a fitting which you need to buy a rubber hose and connect to the PCV valve on the drivers side valve cover.

Plenum
On the Pass side at the back there are 3 fittings, 2 which are on a recessed area and one on the very side. The two on the recessed area are as follows 1) Fuel pressure regulator 2) MAP sensor. I plugged up the third one.

NOTE: (This is not the way it is supposed to be set up, one of the two recessed connectors should have a T in the rubber and go to the EGR solenoid. Which I did not hook up. Same with the EGR valve which is in place but not hooked up as well as the plugged fitting. I will post a follow up article when I get around to it.)

On the passenger side rear bottom corner there is a fitting which you need to connect with a hose to the brake master cylinder.

There is a hole under the plenum, which is for the MAT sensor. I got a V6 air cleaner, which mounts the MAT sensor on the air cleaner itself.

Throttle Body
On the pass side of the TB there are two spots for hoses to be connected. The top one (larger one) goes to the crank case breather on the rear of the pass side valve cover. The bottom (smaller) goes to the charcoal canister. Under the TB is the IAC housing which has the IAC valve and the coolant passage. You can performed the TB bypass and not hook this up.

You may have a problem with the GM TPI harness. It has a mysterious connector with two thick wires one orange and one red. Which is laying way out of place right by the pass side strut tower. To make a long story short this turns out to be the wires which give power to the ECM and the fans. Not a big problem a little cut and splicing and connect them to the battery with a fusible link. The harness also does not come with the wire that goes from the back of the alternator to the battery. Small detail because the alternator will not charge without this wire. You can use the one out of your TBI harness and use it.

First time you start the car make sure your timing is correct, or it can/may backfire out of the TB and crack the top of the air cleaner assembly. Before the car is ready you will have to adjust the timing, the TPS as well as setting minimum idle.

Other than the problems listed I have had no check engine lights and the car runs fine!

Also if you have not seen it you can try First Fuel Injection . com

Another issue is that earlier TPI manifolds mating with the cylinder heads at a different angle than latter units. Aftermarket heads seem to use the later stuff as well.


I didn't know that and was throwing oil all over from where gaps occurred at the head/ block manifold corner. What a mess, it threw oil into the cylinders as well.

Check my photobucket account listed below for lots of pics along the way.

The Votec heads have different angles at the manifold, so the older intake manifolds do not fit.

"Holy dead threads batman!!",. i guess these guys didn't notice the OP got educated and bought an LT1 car,.
" Yes Robin, tbi/tpi guys are always behind ".
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Nick .............. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Chapel, luckily, I know you just bought a 91 as a stablemate to your 95.

So because a post is over a month old - Its considered dead? Really.......

No 1phast there are no dead post just a chance for Nick to yank your chain.Thanks for the
detailed info on the TPI switch.Did your car seem a lot more powerful after the swap.Personally
I am interested in low end grunt and high rpm HP is not a priority with these heavy cars.
Thanks Again
Jim

I can tell you they grunt Really well! Buy stock in Goodyear or B. F. Goodrich!
If you want a higher end horsepower model, use the Holley Stealth Ram (HSR) on a 350. It has much better breathing on the top end than does the any of the TPI stuff.

The long tubes on TPI are great for low end torque. That's why I went with it. (plus I always thought it looked cool) A heavy car does not launch well without grunting out some serious low end torque. Keep in mind TPI was really designed for a 305ci motor, and got thrown on to the 350 as an after thought. So even on a 350 it was compromised to begin with.

You can find better breathing manifolds, siamesed tubes, bigger throttle bodies & injectors etc, but it still boils down to choking the top end, and they are done around 5500rpm. The HSR gives up low end grunt for top end horsepower

The torque curve is ungodly. In theory, by computer simulation, (not dyno'd) I am well over 500 ft/lb of torque from 2000 to 5000 rpm. it peaks at over 550ft/lb

Keep in mind the Speed density systems are better for lots of mods as they can be more readily reprogrammed, but YOU WILL NEED REPROGRAMMING. Minor mods with MAF systems aren't as likely to need major reprogramming.

As long as you have been working on your setup,you had better be an authority on the subject!
That is unless something is wrong with your learning ability!
Jim

Learning ability, no.

... thinking ability... maybe

Thanks for the kindness, but the real brains about programming are on:

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If it wasn't for them I'd have a whale of a lawn ornament.

lakeffect wrote:

If it wasn't for them I'd have a whale of a lawn ornament.

Seeing that I was thinking to myself..........................

In todays NEWS, a beached whale resembling Shamoo has shown up on a lawn in Rochester, NY. Several Marine Biologists from around the globe have gathered to figure out this strange happening

Reminds me of when my wife was pregnant..


Every time she'd try to get out the water at the beach, members of Green Peace would keep trying to roll her back in.

lakeffect wrote:

Reminds me of when my wife was pregnant..


Every time she'd try to get out the water at the beach, members of Green Peace would keep trying to roll her back in.

Your wife maybe right about the surgery you had after all..... The doc is going to have to remove her foot if she reads this.

Mike

Thank God for passwords.