car failed emissions test,. why?

the NO ppm is way over limit is supposed to be 331 it read 726 at 1276 rpm,.
HC ppm limit is 46 it read 5
CO% limit is 0.25% it read 0.03%

the curb idle test was good,.
CO% limit is 1.00 it read 0.02
HC ppm limit at idle is 200 it read 5

So any emissions guru
s wanna tell me why before this car has a tragic fuel rail fire to match the fire on the sides,.

Nick

Nick, just for clarification, everything is good EXCEPT the NOX? And only at 1200RPM?

change the thermostat 205 degree, the engine is not running at peak temp, and fails emissions. or you could move in with northern classics no emissions up there

buickestate wrote:

change the thermostat 205 degree, the engine is not running at peak temp, and fails emissions. or you could move in with northern classics no emissions up there

well there's a 190 in there,. and you are so right about this area,. i,m actually further away from the testing station than the town of dundalk is,. no emissions there,. AAARGH<>
BUT
i think we have it fixed,. this particular motor (number 2 from fred number 3 for the car , that i know of,.) has always had a rough idle,. so i got listening closely and checking stuff,. and i could hear a vacuum leak but not find it,. so i sprayed brake cleaner on hoses,. pass side injectors then drivers side vacuum hoses and injector,. car stalled definitely a prob with injectors 3 and 5,.
pulled the fuel rail and two shredded "O" rings,. swapped in some better softer used o rings and the car runs so nicely now!! TA DAH!!
So vacuum leak on one side will cause the O2 to dump fuel,.too rich in low speed driving mode,. but fine at idle,.,.
will try again on monday i,m going to drive the car for the weekend and to work tomorrow see how it does,.


Nick

You might clean and check the EGR just for insurance. High NO usually means bad EGR.

Bill

X2 on the EGR valve for NOx gasses, Nick. That was the problem with my brother's car.

Your vacuum leak repair will help, but more with HC... which you don't need help with.

IIRC, hot temps actually make NOx gasses read higher. Always a balancing act with emissions. Temp too low and you get HC and CO problems, too hot and the NOx can creep up on you.

Good luck. I "moved" to a county here that doesn't do testing. There's been talk for years in Ohio that the OBD-1 testing (95 and older) would be eliminated since the car needs to be put on a treadmill, etc. No such luck as of yet.

keep us posted on the re-test, Nick. My 94 passed NOx by one point on the "second chance" run. All my other numbers are low like yours. I believe it is the EGR, so I look forward to your results.

X3 on a possible EGR issue. Most EGR systems are activated above 1000 rpm and in gear. Most of the time its just a leaking vac line or gunk stuck on the valve itself. High combustion temps will cause high NOx readings. I run a 195 T'stat in my 94 and had no problem with emissions. I've only had to replace the EGR valve itself once in about 30 years.
They stopped doing the treadmill emissions for my 94 and now only test 96+ with OBD2 here in Mass. Rumor was a couple of vehicles "took off". The inspector would run the engines up to 3000 RPM. In the past two of my vehicles lost traction on the drum which caused the rear to walk. My station would clear out the area in front of the inspection bay when doing the test. Now they do a visual for the emission components on the ones they can't plug in.
regards
rikard

you're all right,. and you're all alright with me too,.
the egr was seized,. replaced it,.
will see tomorrow what happens,.


Nick

Thanks Nick. Where and how much for the EGR?

Put away the party hats,. cancell the band,. car failed again,. the nox is better but still too high,.
went from 726 on a 331 limit to 527,.with the newer egr,. (i have some low mile used ones jay,.)
Guy did say the car is way too lean tho,. will clean the maf,.find a pressure gauge for the fuel rail,.
i bought a cute little adapter for my cable so i can use my laptop,. i,m going to datalog the car with datamaster,. and see what comes up,.
AAAAARGH as i mentioned ? the town of dundalk is closer to the emissions testing place than we are,. and they don't need a test,. AAAARGH!!


Nick
car runs so nice its a crying fucking shame, its not good enough for the government,. that have tightened emissions regs by 11% per year for the last 5 yrs,. car would have passed fine 5 yrs ago,. (where's the crying smilie,.??)

Nick:

Have you determined if the EGR solinoid is functioning? Could be the EGR was siezed because of lack of use. If the solinoid is kaput, then the EGR doesn't open.

Easy to test:

Hook up vacuum source to input of solinoid (drivers side valve cover just ahead of egr valve). Connect pin A to 12V and pin B to ground. EGR should now open. If not, then solinoid is dead. Also check to see if you are getting vacuum from intake. This plugs up on occasion.


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Still sounds like the EGR is not opening. If everything else is within spec. then don't give up on the EGR.

Bill

I always thought that high NOX was plugged cats. A stuck EGR would have thrown a PO1441 code and CEL.

sstripes96 wrote:

I always thought that high NOX was plugged cats. A stuck EGR would have thrown a PO1441 code and CEL.

cars' a 94 bud obd1 ,..
bill will run the car tomorrow,. and open the egr with your method,. if nthe car stalls out,. we're good to go,. ? i think its working,tho it improved some since last try,.
my f"ing laptop won't communicate with the car using datamaster,. i can use the pc no problem,.
i bought an adapter cable to go from the serial port style connector of the aldl cable i have,. but the f***ker won't communicate with the pcm,. i want to drive the car and see if its commanding the egr to open,.

Nick

Use an inverter, and take the whole PC with you. I know that sounds crazy, but the effort will be worth it.

After dealing with my cable issues, I found that USB/serial adapters are not reliable...

Don't even have to run the engine. Just give the solinoid a supply of vacuum and a couple of jumper wires to activate the unit. Even sucking on a length of hose is enough to open the EGR. Again, check the vacuum coming out of the intake manifold. Have seen this plugged a couple of times, usually with a carbon crud, probably oil residue from the PCV. Had to use a drilll bit to clear the Caddy.

Bill

sstripes96 wrote:

I always thought that high NOX was plugged cats. A stuck EGR would have thrown a PO1441 code and CEL.

Plugged cats would throw everything else off too, plus the engine would run like crap.

Bill

i ntook it to my local garage for my rape testing fee,. but mechanic got pissy and said there's 4 egr's for this motor,. well yes,. but 2 are for camaro's,. and 1 is for manual trans,. so that leaves one,.
well i removed the egr and showed him its the exact same on,. but the owner of the shop has informed me the shop will always be too busy now to work on it,.
SO,......
brought it home,
vacuum added,. motor shut off, egr opens all the way, and will hold for better than the minumum 20secs,.
Motor running,. vacuum added,. egr opens part way only,. too much exhaust back pressure?
open manually with something while motor is running and motor will stall,.
Nick
by the time i get this sorted it'll be time to put the bastard car away,.not to mention the 10 temp tag has expired,.
all this adding to my wisdom tooth absess, my inflamed bowel, and C A S taking me to court to make my 15 yr old a ward of the court,.
aaargh.

WTF do they care what EGR is on it? My place doesn't even open the hood or look underneath. As long as it passes, there could be a steam engine in there. Put the probe in, and follow the damn prompts on the computer.

One more thing. See if you can get them to do a "two-speed idle test". I get this one for the SS, becuase I tell them it is too low for the rollers. It passes with zeros across the board. This is a standard request, and they shouldn't argue. The car doesn't get put on the rollers - it just revs in park. The SS also gets the "hot rod" category (their term) because of the T56 swap.

a drive to ottawa i guess,. cos the wagon is really low,. but its been on the rollers ok,.
i have my suspicions that the old guy is doing something wrong,.

the roady wagon does the same thing egr wise,. idling i can hook up live vacuum,.and it runs slower and a little rougher but the egr doesn't open wide,. shut it off and apply vacuum and it opens wide,.
i have to go get a vacuum gauge i guess,. faakk i,m sickof this fucking black albatross,. ever since it got thoise damn flames the cars been a slut,.i still have to align it properly yet, AND fix the damn trans lockup,..
aaargh

Nick

phantom 309 wrote:

a drive to ottawa i guess,. cos the wagon is really low,. but its been on the rollers ok,.
i have my suspicions that the old guy is doing something wrong,.

the roady wagon does the same thing egr wise,. idling i can hook up live vacuum,.and it runs slower and a little rougher but the egr doesn't open wide,. shut it off and apply vacuum and it opens wide,.
i have to go get a vacuum gauge i guess,. faakk i,m sickof this fucking black albatross,. ever since it got thoise damn flames the cars been a slut,.i still have to align it properly yet, AND fix the damn trans lockup,..
aaargh

Nick

Nick:

It's obvious this guy is just pissy cause he doesn't get a chance to take you for the 400 bucks he's allowed to clip you for (diagnoses and repair) in order to give you a "conditional pass" when he can't figure it out. If the EGR is functional and the EGR solinoid is functional and it is getting the vacuum then it is working. When operational, it doesn't open up very far anyways. The solinoid is pulse width modulated so it is constantly turning on and off. The EGR could be off your truck. It doesn't matter, it's just a valve.

Spend the extra bucks and have it done by someone who cares. This guy is playing pocket pool with your wallet. As far as coming to Ottawa. come on down. We'll find someone here that will get it passed. Might even get your lock-up working for you.

Bill

lol, I don't have a connection at a place. I just go to "Oil Changers". They probably don't care because all they do is E tests, and oil changes. Well, they try and sell stuff like oil flushes and trans conditioners, but we're smarter than that. I just go in, give them the paper from the previous test, and say "do it again, like last time."

I've seen a mention of cats on this topic... the cat converts NOX to C02, so that could definitely be an issue if they are not working properly... this could also explain exhaust back pressure.

bigoldv8 wrote:

I've seen a mention of cats on this topic... the cat converts NOX to C02, so that could definitely be an issue if they are not working properly... this could also explain exhaust back pressure.

A little off there. A three way cat converts:

1. NOs to Ns and Os (nitrous oxides to nitrogen and oxygen)

2. Oxidizes COs to CO2

3. Oxidizes unburnt hydrocarbons to form CO2 and H2O

Both his HCs and his COs are low, so the cats seem to be working. If they were plugged or breaking down the engine would run like crap and it would smell like a rotten egg. Still suspect the EGR or the 5 gas analyser in the drive clean dyno (when was the last time this guy had it calibrated?). If the EGR is working, it makes no sense that the other values would be as low and the NOs would be so high.

Nick:

Try to find someone who is willing to put their dyno into diagnostic mode and then try each pipe individually. Could be one side will pass, thus run the test only on that side. This is all assuming you don't have a balance pipe in the exhaust.

Bill

thanks for the correction... sorry, been a while since I read up on the details of cats... I remembered less NOx and more C02 was the result when they work properly.

t'eed a vacuum gauge into the line,. egr is working fine,.it pulled 15in with the first solenoid,. and now almost 17 with the other,.kicks of at closed throttle and kicks off more than 80% throttle,.
so back to the rapist tomorrow,. could be an o2 keeping it lean,. yes billy i like your idea of 1 pipe then the other,.
i,ve told this different station to diagnose it if it fails again,.i also added a bone stock program this time,.we shall see,.I,m wondering now if the knock sensors aren't pulling timing, so thats making her hot,.
car has 20.5ins cold and 19.5ins hot,.so no vac leaks,.

Nick

LT1 or LT4 knock module?

k, drama update,. went back to the testing station,. told them i,d changed the egr and cleaned the MAF,.
they ran it,. it failed,.exactly same results,.so told them to diagnose the problem,. 450 limit on repairs,. tech phones me,. "it needs and egr and the MAF cleaned with your dianostic charge it'll bring you up to 467 with taxes,. I come unglued,. finally after speaking to the owner and in my most diplomatic way that i have he agrees with me that the time would have been better spent checking cars etc,. so if i,d like ,. the diagnostic mode and they'll check some more,. AFTER they change the egr and clean the Maf,and they'll only add 180 to the bill for dyno time,.
after further conversation,.not so diplomatic,. he offers to refund all my money if i would just come and get the car,.
back to square one,..
aaargh

Nick

jayoldschool wrote:

LT1 or LT4 knock module?

what diff does this make kid?

nick

LT4 module will tolerate more engine noise before it pulls timing. No idea if it would make a difference in an E test, though... just thinking out loud...

Has the car got headers, roller rockers, anything? I can't remember the build on this one.

jayoldschool wrote:

I can't remember the build on this one.

Not sure if you were paying any attention to wagons stuff back then. got the car from fred, car sat at the auction yard so long it cost extra for storage,. sat at freds for a month,. i showed up and had to actually buy back the interior that had gotten switched into another car,..then had to jump thru expensive hoops to get an education about importing a salvage title car into canada,,.did 100's hours of body work to straighten the panels and paint it dead straight black with 95-96 mirrors
(car is a 1994,. you listening joel??),.it got all complete new brakes, all new cat back exhausts, all new steering parts , new springs and 4 shocks,,.Then motor one suddenly gave up the ghost without getting thrashed hard,. fred was kind enough to give me a free motor out of another junk high mile car,. which i removed myself,.and brought back at the same time with the palamino,.i cleaned it inside and out,. rolled new bearings in it,.and added a new oil pump,. that motor gave up 3wks later idling at a light,.again being babied so we could get it to wagonfest (learned about old lt1's and new high volume pumps the hard way)
Bought and paid for another motor off fred 1 month after wagonfest, that i had watched have its valve covers removed during a wagonfest vulture run,.,(even tho i protested at the time,.) brought the motor home in the back of the old gold run of the mill roady, (stopped at raisse fest the same day) motor was spotless inside, timing chain was tight,. fred said car was a low miler its now in the car,.then, tranny went for a dump (no 2nd or 4th) so i bought a re-done tranny from fred, that was smuggled into canada for me by some great folks in barrie that bought a car off fred, time went by without me installing it, so i took the tranny and the car to the next wagonfest, left the car there for front end repaint,. tranny was switched out by freds crazy mechanic ronnie? with the redone unit,(but not untill the very day (2 months later) that i arrived to get it,. but at 2 pm in the afternoon, trans had no reverse,. had to return to home after a wasted trip,and leave the car in new york again, ,. dually was supposed to stay in new york and get painted,.never did get the dually painted there, got the car a month later after hearing about 3 different re-re's,.to still have NO lockup,. car came back to canada,.with the front clip and roof in shitty, dry, non shiny, paint by freds' paint guy billy,. whole car needs to be either re-cleared properly,. or completely repainted black again,.
car came back to canada again and went into the trailer for two years while i sulked and pouted and dealt with my angry feelings, (it takes me a while i guess,.)
was resurrected again this year,.first thing it wouldn't turn over while in the trailer,. rebuilt the starter battery cables etc,. only to have to replace the wire from the key right down to the solenoid,.(aftermarket car starter alarm fucking nightmare) to now have emissions problems,.random current draw flattening the battery etc,.3rd battery in the car,.
car has travelled less than 3000kms in 5 yrs,.i,m trying to get it emissions tested ready for sale but the year is almost done again, so i've tried to be enthusiastic,.(and forgiving) as you know I added the 96 console and shifter and redid the steering column,. i,m owed the shifter top plate by someone, but it supposedly "can't be found" (it was paid for 2 yrs ago),.so its still unfinished,.
I truly hate this car and most of the people that i,ve paid to be involved with it,.and i,ve been constantly reminded and never been allowed to forget that i got a "great deal" on it when it was won at the auction,.The money that is in this car would have bought me the nice low mile dggm wb4 that i truly wanted,
SO as wally cronkite would say,. now you know the rest of the story,.

Nick

Holy crap Nick,that just made me want to put an axe thru my own hood,for the good of all black wagons out there.

Not one of us could blame you for being more than a little upset after that read. I could have bought a small airplane with the $$ I have in mine but I can at least use it. Keep us posted,this will have an interesting ending I predict. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Lorne.

Yeah, I obviously missed part (all) of the story. Now I understand the axe.

sorry for the rant, but it dredged up so many old memories and aggravation that was not caused by any actions of my own,. i,ve deliberately omitted the series of events behind the axe in the hood scene,. which is still not over for me, as i,m vindictive and will have retribution,.
So i have a car that should be a nice looking, nice driving, reliable car for the money spent on it,.
all i have a fucking black flamed albatross, that won't pass emissions,.

Nick
sorry for my bitter comments,.

An albatross aloft can be a spectacular site. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Woah Nick...I didn't know the whole story on that wagon. Damn...

Pictures to cheer you up Nick.

Nice DGGM and I wouldn't have thought so before this pic.I see why you like it

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Looks like you were there Chris.

Nick had the funniest,and I will stand firm on that 100% head to head battle of all times about your car when Frank was selling it. He and Biggest Kahauna went toe to toe for two days before the entire thread was wiped out.I will never forget the name Charlie Costello as long as I live. I am laughing just thinking back.

Nice flames on the blue fender,to me anyway

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I love this picnick,no pun intended, as we now know it has been anything but

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Woah..where did you find those pics Lorne?? Those are from the Ohio Valley Wagon Gathering (lol)

The next aggravation on the agenda,.
the wife and i went to rochelle IL on the weekend to pickup a 2006 w900l kenworth hood, for a very good price,.got across the border with a some drama, (not us tho,) guy in the next lane was removed from the car at gunpoint,.!! quite dramatic!! I payed a $6.00 fee and now have a 3month visa to come and go as i please,.
after leaving rochelle with the hood tied down,.(930kms from home) diane drove the dually for a few mins,. ... bad vibration,..
smoke rolling,. diagnosis,. holed piston,.SO, 8 gallons of oil and 13 shakey hrs later we made home,.with oil covering every part in the engine compartment, underneath, the tailgate, and puddled on the back step bumper
so i need something to drive to work that doesn't suck fuel like a hooker on super bowl night,.
I drag the old gold run of the mill roady out of the far driveway,. add an $89 cdn tire battery,. pump up the tires,. and we're good to go,..
wife says............"it needs plates renewed," (dead silence on my part now) and ... yep you guessed it,..
an emissions test (AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!)
well changed the oil last nite,(looked as brown as creosote can't remember the last oil change). drove it to work,. went to the city and went to an oil changers/emissions testing outlet,.
At 399,304kms it passed easily,.
so now all i have to do is change the tranny that has no 2nd gear,.little brown fella at the testing station was amazed,. even after i told him how to bring it up in 1st gear to go faster than 30kms, lift off,. take a bite of his sandwich then carry on after the tranny has found 3rd gear,. i,m almost excited at the prospect of changing tranny's,. because i can do that with no government interference,.

Life is cruel.

Nick

Glad you have the 3 month Visa now...

I have some regrets about selling that DGGM wagon. It looked better when I sold it - swapped out those mirrors and handles for body color & repainted the bumper. I'm sure ArlingtonSS is still loving it. I may be back in the game next spring.. we'll see!

Nick I had no idea you went through so much with that car. I recall one of the first times I started reading the forum you had posted something about wanting to sell that one and/or a blue one you had. Maybe it was just out of frustration but I had not seen all the threads. You've got a lot of determination, thats for sure. I know I wouldn't have the patience to go through that nightmare. All of this reminds me of a friend of mine who can't seem to get a break lately. He can't get one thing fixed before something else goes to h3ll.

PS - Chris gets credit for how nice that DGGM wagon DOES look. The week before the "Gathering" we put on he detailed it the best he could. Obviously he couldn't fix peeled paint & clearcoat or faded black trim but it's his skills that gave it that deepness that makes me love that color.

thanks chris,. i,m no longer "persona non grata"
in december if i haven't received my canadian permanant residency card,. then i can renew the visas ad-infinitum for $6 every 90 days,. subject to digital photographs and fingerprints of course,
by next year we're hoping the the citizenship stuff will be finished too (they have a 14-18month back log back in dec 2008) then as a british subject i will stand up, raise my right hand and pledge allegiance to the queen (ironic for and englishman to do that eh?) and receive my canadian citizenship, and be a dual citizenship kinda guy

Nick

phantom 309 wrote:

sorry for the rant, but it dredged up so many old memories and aggravation that was not caused by any actions of my own,. i,ve deliberately omitted the series of events behind the axe in the hood scene,. which is still not over for me, as i,m vindictive and will have retribution,.
So i have a car that should be a nice looking, nice driving, reliable car for the money spent on it,.
all i have a fucking black flamed albatross, that won't pass emissions,.

Nick
sorry for my bitter comments,.

Nick:

There are times when it doesn't matter how hard you try, an inanimate object just refuses to co-operate. Even if you did get that car running and everything fixed, could you honestly trust it to stay that way?

Have had a couple of vehicles that simply refused to respond to my care and attention. Sometimes it's just better to cut your loses, part it out and be done with it. Patience and a little money will yield a better car that is actually fun to own and drive.

Quote :

smoke rolling,. diagnosis,. holed piston,.SO, 8 gallons of oil and 13 shakey hrs later we made home,.with oil covering every part in the engine compartment, underneath, the tailgate, and puddled on the back step bumper

Their really out to get you this month. Have some 6.5 bottom ends around the place. Haven't checked them for cracks, but if you need something, just call. Looks like I will be building up the 89 6.2 for "Project 40" so the 6.5s may not be needed.

By the way, welcome to Canada Eh! Hope you have more luck with the government then Carol and I. Finally got Carols EDL last week. Only took them 4 months. Ruined two trips for us down to the Finger Lakes (WF09 and Vintage weekend at Watkins Glen). Even passports are only taking 3 weeks.

Bill

convert2diesel wrote:

.



Their really out to get you this month. Have some 6.5 bottom ends around the place. Haven't checked them for cracks, but if you need something, just call. Looks like I will be building up the 89 6.2 for "Project 40" so the 6.5s may not be needed..
Bill

yes billy i need a decent bottom end,.pm me how much you need please., a 6.2 'd be fine(better),. no late model blocks with squirters either,.please.

permenant resident card is waiting in kitchener,. hours are 9-11, 1-3,. gotta bring all id's etc that they,ve already seen, just to pick the damn card up,.right down town too,. they send a passport special delivery, why not the prc? they'll even send a credit card thru the mail,. and your health card,. and your drivers license,.
but not the prc,..
AAAAARGHHHH!!!!!

nick

So,. keeping up with the wagon momentum,. it was back to the black bitch again today,.
changed both cats for the low mile ones of my blue flamed lump,. (yes there's another wagon still hiding) bought 2 new bosch o2's,. will send it in in the next few days to see what happens,. but it will be to a testing station not a repair facility with testing capabilities,. it might be coincidence, but canadian tire is the only repair facility that ever passed a car for us 1st time,.
it was back in april 2006, the car?? a black caprice wagon.
idle results.. HC ..5 on a limit of 200, CO%...0 on a limit of 1
40kmh@1379 rpm..HC...6 on a limit of 46,. CO%..0.07 on a 0.25 limit, NOx 300 on a 331 limit,.
back to cdn tire i think,..

Nick

I dunno whether to laugh or cry,.
car passed,.
BUT!!! ( and you people wonder why i fucking snap??)

the new place couldn't put it on the rollers because its too low,.
the other place was using 2X8's to drive up on first,.,.
those dirty rotten M*&$%#f*&$kers!!! they could have done the two speed static test a month ago !!!
all the aggravation yesterday changing cats and O2's($170.00) was for nothing,.
I,m so happy yet so fuckin mad i,m going insane, and i,m sharpening the axe,.and my teenager is filling bottles with gasoline,.

Nick

Glad my trick worked...