Bought an engine

Hello guys,
Just bought a '73 Olds 350 engine backed up by a 350 tranny today. I'm planning on building it into my '87 OCC but want to use the 200 4R which is currently in. I want to take the 200 tranny apart and built a mild shift kit into it, just to be on the safe side with the 350 engine.
Question, will the 200 4R fit behind the '73 350? (at a first glance, it looked like there where no fitments issues to me)
I'll keep you guys posted as soon as the engine is in my possession.
Pete

it will bolt right up,but you need to keep the t.v.cable bracket from the old motor and use it on the 350 also if the 350 is going to be stock use the dist and carb from the 307 and run it on the computer or you will have to get a kit to lock up the convertor.

Paging Olds Expert Nick....

Thnx so far guys. I'm not planning running it on the computer. I'll need to get me a lock up kit. Any idea's where to get it?
Pete

Yes the trans will bolt to the engine. You can purchase the lockup kit from Summit Racing or even many parts stores.

I'm mid-way through my 307 swap. I have to pass emissions tests one more time so I'm keeping the computer, dist, carb, and all.

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While I'm at it, who can tell me what the original engine colour was for these engines?
I've seen bronze, but some say red.
Thnx,
Pete

Dutch Pete wrote:

While I'm at it, who can tell me what the original engine colour was for these engines?
I've seen bronze, but some say red.
Thnx,
Pete

It was either gold if an early 73 or blue if a later 73 engine.

-Mike

350s were originally gold in the early 70s (til 73 IIRC).
Also, you cannot run a 350 with the 307s computer/ carb. It cant compensate for the extra displacement.

And yes, the 200r4 will bolt up to the 350. As long as the 350 is left in stock form, the trans will survive.

87 is pretty far back for me to remember correctly,.

If the car is already wired for a 200r4, then a simple swap to 350 is very simple, as the 307 350 are pretty close to identical in most aspects, check mikes thread, he,s done all the research .hooking a TV cable is simple,.
If it were me doing the job,.i,d upgrade the 350 to a better intake, and an aftermarket carb, and i,d run a mechanical HEI,. make sure the timing chain was upgraded to non nylon type.
I changed the low vacuum switch for the lockup one time too i used a switch that unlocked the converter sooner, but i can't remember the part #,. and if it were my car i,d add a manual switch so i could lock it when i wanted to, and use third gear locked for towing,.which is a great mod for any wagon that tows,.
JMHO,.

Nick

cadillac kevin wrote:

350s were originally gold in the early 70s (til 73 IIRC).
Also, you cannot run a 350 with the 307s computer/ carb. It cant compensate for the extra displacement.

And yes, the 200r4 will bolt up to the 350. As long as the 350 is left in stock form, the trans will survive.

Not to argue but I've done a TON of research on this and as long as you use the 307's carb, you can run the 350 in place of the 307 with no issues. You can also remove the A.I.R. pump and hoses which cleans up a lot under the hood (your 350 will not have the bosses on the heads for it anyway). The only thing you need to do is put some 350 metering rods in the 307 carb, and it's also a good idea to file down the tab that keeps the secondaries from fully opening on the computer Quadrajets. Easy mod.

Edelbrock makes a Performer 350 intake that has all the bosses for sensors and such. Running that on my 72 350. You can use a pre-85 307 intake on the 350, but the mid-85 to 90 307 intake will not work on your 350. If I were you I'd order the Edelbrock intake. It's not expensive through Summit.

By retaining the computer, you do not need to modify the transmission for the lockup to work. Also your a/c will need no mods and will cycle properly, and you should still have decent mileage. The 307's distributor can be retained as well. You WILL need a smog 350 or pre-85 307 iron exhaust manifold on the passenger side, or will need to put a boss on a header for the one 02 sensor located there. Other than that, it all bolts up fine.

I'm almost done with this swap on my '88 Cutlass!! Can't wait to get it back on the road!

-Mike

One thing to point out, everyone has told me that the 200R4 will not live very long bolted to the 350 if you hot-rod around with it. The 350 has more power than 200R4 was designed to handle. You CAN however have the transmission rebuilt and beefed up, and at the very least have a shift kit installed.

I drive like Grandpa, and the only reason I'm putting the 350 in my Cutlass is because my 307 lost all it's oil pressure, and I'd rather have a bit more power than mess with tearing into the 307 to fix it. My Cutlass is just a cruiser so I'm hoping my stock transmission will last a while longer bolted to my new 350...at least until I can save up to mod it! Ha!

GM did use the 200R4 in the Buick Grand Nationals, so modded, it can take abuse!

Just things to keep in mind.

-Mike

81X11 wrote:

cadillac kevin wrote:

350s were originally gold in the early 70s (til 73 IIRC).
Also, you cannot run a 350 with the 307s computer/ carb. It cant compensate for the extra displacement.

And yes, the 200r4 will bolt up to the 350. As long as the 350 is left in stock form, the trans will survive.

Not to argue but I've done a TON of research on this and as long as you use the 307's carb, you can run the 350 in place of the 307 with no issues. You can also remove the A.I.R. pump and hoses which cleans up a lot under the hood (your 350 will not have the bosses on the heads for it anyway). The only thing you need to do is put some 350 metering rods in the 307 carb, and it's also a good idea to file down the tab that keeps the secondaries from fully opening on the computer Quadrajets. Easy mod.

Edelbrock makes a Performer 350 intake that has all the bosses for sensors and such. Running that on my 72 350. You can use a pre-85 307 intake on the 350, but the mid-85 to 90 307 intake will not work on your 350. If I were you I'd order the Edelbrock intake. It's not expensive through Summit.

By retaining the computer, you do not need to modify the transmission for the lockup to work. Also your a/c will need no mods and will cycle properly, and you should still have decent mileage. The 307's distributor can be retained as well. You WILL need a smog 350 or pre-85 307 iron exhaust manifold on the passenger side, or will need to put a boss on a header for the one 02 sensor located there. Other than that, it all bolts up fine.

I'm almost done with this swap on my '88 Cutlass!! Can't wait to get it back on the road!

-Mike

All good info for a guy who wants to keep everything as the factory intended,. A/C can be worked around with proprer pressure switches,.Trans can lockup properly with a 1 hot wire circuit running thru a brake pedal interrupt switch and a vacuum manifold switch,.very simple circuit,.
Throw the computer controlled quadrabog away,.
JMHO,.

Mike likes things to look factory, if you are of the same opinions then follow Mikes build,
If you want better performance/mileage and reliability, perhaps you might follow my advice,.
Good luck on your swap

Nick

phantom 309 wrote:

81X11 wrote:

cadillac kevin wrote:

350s were originally gold in the early 70s (til 73 IIRC).
Also, you cannot run a 350 with the 307s computer/ carb. It cant compensate for the extra displacement.

And yes, the 200r4 will bolt up to the 350. As long as the 350 is left in stock form, the trans will survive.

Not to argue but I've done a TON of research on this and as long as you use the 307's carb, you can run the 350 in place of the 307 with no issues. You can also remove the A.I.R. pump and hoses which cleans up a lot under the hood (your 350 will not have the bosses on the heads for it anyway). The only thing you need to do is put some 350 metering rods in the 307 carb, and it's also a good idea to file down the tab that keeps the secondaries from fully opening on the computer Quadrajets. Easy mod.

Edelbrock makes a Performer 350 intake that has all the bosses for sensors and such. Running that on my 72 350. You can use a pre-85 307 intake on the 350, but the mid-85 to 90 307 intake will not work on your 350. If I were you I'd order the Edelbrock intake. It's not expensive through Summit.

By retaining the computer, you do not need to modify the transmission for the lockup to work. Also your a/c will need no mods and will cycle properly, and you should still have decent mileage. The 307's distributor can be retained as well. You WILL need a smog 350 or pre-85 307 iron exhaust manifold on the passenger side, or will need to put a boss on a header for the one 02 sensor located there. Other than that, it all bolts up fine.

I'm almost done with this swap on my '88 Cutlass!! Can't wait to get it back on the road!

-Mike

All good info for a guy who wants to keep everything as the factory intended,. A/C can be worked around with proprer pressure switches,.Trans can lockup properly with a 1 hot wire circuit running thru a brake pedal interrupt switch and a vacuum manifold switch,.very simple circuit,.
Throw the computer controlled quadrabog away,.
JMHO,.

Mike likes things to look factory, if you are of the same opinions then follow Mikes build,
If you want better performance/mileage and reliability, perhaps you might follow my advice,.
Good luck on your swap

Nick

Hey now, I'm ONLY keeping it stock to save a little bit of work and money on the swap, and because it has to go through one more state emissions inspection this coming July. After this July the car will be age-exempt and I can do whatever I want with it. I see an Edelbrock carb and true dual exhaust wit no cats in my Cutlass future, but for now, I just want to to LIVE and be legal.

I personally feel sorry for my 72 350 being strangled by my stock 307's single exhaust. I updated to 403 exhaust manifolds which are a lot better than the 307's, but the exhaust is still being squeezed into a single pipe. Exhaust will be once of my first updates after the emission test this summer!

-Mike

Thnx so far, guys.
There are plans for an Edelbrock intake (part# 2711, non EGR) and a Edelbrock carb. (i'm planning a 600cfm) I'm not going to use the computer controlled ignition, it's a mess now. I just go for an early HEI with the vacuum. An other plan that lurks in my mind is while i'm at it, replace the timing chain, part# 7813 and the camshaft / lifters for a performer plus cam (part # 3712) Just to keep it a bit on the modest side. The trans is goin to have a work over, and i'll put a mild shift kit in it.
Last thing to get, a good set of shorty headers (i dont want to go full lenght) to get the thing breathing properly. Any advise on the headers?
And, reading all your advise, i want to go for a gold colour on the engine. Just because i like that.
Thnx again for all the advise.
Pete

Pete:

I could be dead wrong here (I'm sure I will be corrected if so) but the 200 R4s I have worked on did not need the computer to lock up the convertor. The diesel conversion I did on my 85 Cadillac used the gasser 200R4 and it had two relays in the pan (one for 3rd and one for 4th) with a delay on the lockup solinoid. These relays were hooked up in parallel through the brake switch and the TPS. No connection to the ECM.

Just disconnected all the engine wires except for the TPS, did a redneck CEL delete (removed the bulb) and kept the computer in place. Tranny locked up in 3rd and 4th. It wasn't till I started with the 700s did I need an extra wire or a computer to control the lockup.

Bill

I don't think anyone is going to dispute the fact that a 350 (or a 403, or a 455) will "run" with the stock 307 carb/distributor. However, it won't run as well as it could.

full length headers for sure with 6" extensions on the collectors,.
edelbrock 1407 would be my choice especially if you upgrade the cam,.and put a set of harland sharp rockers on it, it'll work nice. 73 pistons have a big dish and the #8?? heads you have are large too, IF you can find some #6heads, you,d be better off. I,d invest in a couple of head gaskets and have the heads cut .030 and the intake rails to match etc,.bring the compressions up some, put a good dual pattern cam in it,.no too wide on the centres and it'll be a great street motor and pretty efficient.Put a 2500 stall in the trans too,.

Nick

Not to go off subject here,.... but Nick your an olds guy?

Check my other ride out. The wife loves it,.. but hates the gas mileage, only about 15 mpg.

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How much trouble is it to put dual exhaust on my 1992 OCC/5.7? I was surprised when it did not have duals. Newby from Oregon coast.
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Dick

dick it can be done,. i,m not sure the benefits would be worth the cost and effort,.you can use a 94-96 crossmember with a little work,.then you need to run dual cats if your state has emissions testing,.
check out the cop car "Y" pipe for 93 cars, and then run a 3" exhaust with a decent muffler,
good gains for the right price ,.dump the huge restrictive factory cat for a nice 3"free'er flowing aftermarket cat,
.i,m just spouting off what i,ve read on here,.
I think Pat did it to one of his wagons and he was pleased with the sound and performance,.
JMHO

Nick

1993 Roady-man wrote:

Not to go off subject here,.... but Nick your an olds guy?

Check my other ride out. The wife loves it,.. but hates the gas mileage, only about 15 mpg.

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Love those '73s. Best looking back bumper of all the 73-77 cars. Neat toy!

i remember back in the day that the bolt pattern for buick , olds, and pontiac transmissions had different bolt pattern than the chevrolet transmissions. are the 200r trannys just a universal fit? im curious about this . someomne help out please.
straitjacket billy

nevermind i see the tranny is in an olds.
not a chevrolet.
straitjacket billy

straitjacket68 wrote:

i remember back in the day that the bolt pattern for buick , olds, and pontiac transmissions had different bolt pattern than the chevrolet transmissions. are the 200r trannys just a universal fit? im curious about this . someomne help out please.
straitjacket billy

You'll have to look at yours. Some have multiple holes and some don't. For a time GM used them in GM trucks behind the V6 and 305 engines.

straitjacket68 wrote:

i remember back in the day that the bolt pattern for buick , olds, and pontiac transmissions had different bolt pattern than the chevrolet transmissions. are the 200r trannys just a universal fit? im curious about this . someomne help out please.
straitjacket billy

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.
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Nick

Picked up the engine yesterday. The casting number says it's a small block (350 CI) built between 1968 and 1970. Have to look behind the PS bracket to get to the engine VIN.
Made some pictures of the rear cast nr, the front cast nr (next to the oil filler tube) and the top of the block.
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Dutch Pete wrote:

Picked up the engine yesterday. The casting number says it's a small block (350 CI) built between 1968 and 1970. Have to look behind the PS bracket to get to the engine VIN.
Made some pictures of the rear cast nr, the front cast nr (next to the oil filler tube) and the top of the block.
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what heads pete?

I could only find a casting nr 241 on the left bank head. Behind the PS bracket there was none. Also the right bank head has no nr casted in the " normal" location.
Indicating that it's a dealer installed engine?
I know now it's a 69 engine, with a 4 barrel carb.
Pete

Dutch Pete wrote:

I could only find a casting nr 241 on the left bank head. Behind the PS bracket there was none. Also the right bank head has no nr casted in the " normal" location.
Indicating that it's a dealer installed engine?
I know now it's a 69 engine, with a 4 barrel carb.
Pete

The 1.5" high number right at the front of the head by number 1 or number 8 spark plugs,.
big blocks have letters small blocks have numbers,.



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phantom 309 wrote:

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.
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Nick

Nope! There are some BOP-only pattern 200-4Rs out there. Not real common but they do exist.

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phantom 309 wrote:

dick it can be done,. i,m not sure the benefits would be worth the cost and effort,.you can use a 94-96 crossmember with a little work,.then you need to run dual cats if your state has emissions testing,.
check out the cop car "Y" pipe for 93 cars, and then run a 3" exhaust with a decent muffler,
good gains for the right price ,.dump the huge restrictive factory cat for a nice 3"free'er flowing aftermarket cat,
.i,m just spouting off what i,ve read on here,.
I think Pat did it to one of his wagons and he was pleased with the sound and performance,.
JMHO

Nick

Yes Dick, Nick is right it's cheaper and works better than duals. Did the single 3" exhaust mod on my 93 sedan nosed woody, and just last fall on my 91 white woody. the performance picks up and the sound is deep and throaty. Would I say that it makes an LO5 perform like an LT1? I have to say it brings the LO5 shy of the LT1's performance.

It all depends on what you are looking for, I did the 3" exhaust cause it's rather simple and doesn't require any modifications to the 91-93 wagons, and the costs are lower than doing a full dual system, and the results are similar.

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.
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Nick

Nope! There are some BOP-only pattern 200-4Rs out there. Not real common but they do exist.

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Really?? tell us what it came in,.

Wow this is three different threads in one! Entertaining, lol.

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.

Nick

Nope! There are some BOP-only pattern 200-4Rs out there. Not real common but they do exist.

Really?? tell us what it came in,.

Well, glad I found that photo because I can't tell you what they came in. I just knew they existed from my days working at TCI. Those BOP-only 2004Rs would be brought in every so often by the core suppliers. What they plucked them out of is anyone's guess.

phantom 309 wrote:

The 1.5" high number right at the front of the head by number 1 or number 8 spark plugs,.
big blocks have letters small blocks have numbers,.



Nick

Thnx Nick,
It says number 8. So the block is from '73. I discovered that the block casting numbers for '68-'70 is the same as '73-'74.
That means huge 79cc combustion chambers and a 8.0 compression.
Pete

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.

Nick

Nope! There are some BOP-only pattern 200-4Rs out there. Not real common but they do exist.

Really?? tell us what it came in,.

Well, glad I found that photo because I can't tell you what they came in. I just knew they existed from my days working at TCI. Those BOP-only 2004Rs would be brought in every so often by the core suppliers. What they plucked them out of is anyone's guess.

If I had to venture a guess I would say they sat behind the 3.8L V-6 turbos in the Regals. I am most certain there were other applications too. Just not coming to mind right now.

gmtech wrote:

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.

Nick

Nope! There are some BOP-only pattern 200-4Rs out there. Not real common but they do exist.

Really?? tell us what it came in,.

Well, glad I found that photo because I can't tell you what they came in. I just knew they existed from my days working at TCI. Those BOP-only 2004Rs would be brought in every so often by the core suppliers. What they plucked them out of is anyone's guess.

If I had to venture a guess I would say they sat behind the 3.8L V-6 turbos in the Regals. I am most certain there were other applications too. Just not coming to mind right now.

Good guess but nope. Having been involved with Turbo Regals for over 20 years now I can definitively say that all those (BQ & BRF codes) were the multi-pattern cases.

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

Olds Weighty Eight wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

i,m positive that all 200r4's were multi pattern,.

Nick

Nope! There are some BOP-only pattern 200-4Rs out there. Not real common but they do exist.

Really?? tell us what it came in,.

Well, glad I found that photo because I can't tell you what they came in. I just knew they existed from my days working at TCI. Those BOP-only 2004Rs would be brought in every so often by the core suppliers. What they plucked them out of is anyone's guess.

Those pluckers eh?

Didn't think the muti pattern was as common as it was. All of my 5.7 diesels had the single pattern as well as my 85 Fleetwood (307 Olds). Was the 700R4s ever available with multi-pattern?

Bill

convert2diesel wrote:

Was the 700R4s ever available with multi-pattern?

Bill

No. The 700R4 was either Chevy V8 pattern only or the small-bell 2.8L pattern (S-10).

Took the valve covers and the water pump off today. Was not very happy with the state of the engine. Can only turn the crankshaft for 180 degrees by hand. (without the spark plugs in place) Doesn't look very promising...
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A little lacking in the oil change department. Rocker fulcrums will likely be worn out, amongst other things.

And that timing cover..... it sure has seen better days.

Well, the adventure ends here. Turns out there was water in one of the cylinders for a long time. Piston won't go over the badly rusted area. I'm going to return the engine and the seller agreed to give my money back. Looking at the state of the engine, there must be more "discovery's" if i take it apart any further. Well keep looking for another one, no hurry's
And a pic of the cylinder, it's badly rusted into the cylinder wall.

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Really sorry to hear about this. I was really hoping to hear good news. You don't have a machne shop that could do a hone and rebuild there?

I have no idea how you'd get it from here to there, but 350 and 403's pop up often in Central Texas.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Here's a running 403 for $400 local to me in Austin

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Here a 350 up in Dallas. It's apart, says it's been rebuilt but who knows.

With a little luck I'll have a running Olds 350 in my '88 Cutlass this weekend. Engine is in the car and almost running. We'll see!

-Mike

Dutch Pete wrote:

Took the valve covers and the water pump off today. Was not very happy with the state of the engine. Can only turn the crankshaft for 180 degrees by hand. (without the spark plugs in place) Doesn't look very promising...
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Hey Pete. that nasty looking plate that covers the timing chain, and that the water pump mounts on, was bad on my rebuilt '71 350 as well. When I went to put the motor together two of the threads in that plate were stripped, and the plate was rust-damaged where the water pump sat. I ended up tearing down the front of the old 307 and taking the plate off it. Thankfully it was still good. Kind of amazing that an engine from 1988 would use the same part as an engine from 1971, but they matched perfectly.

Such fun!

-Mike

Hey Mike,
i already taken that into account. The water pump, timing chain plate and other things i would have taken from my current 1987 still running 307. I also thought about a complete rebuilt but as i said earlier, by the looks of the engine, that might not be a good idea.
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Ain't nothin' WD40 and a rubber mallet cain't fix........











Sorry for your loss.....

I'm not sure I see any fatal problems here. What looks like nasty rust in that cylinder is nothing. It wouldn't cost a whole bunch to have the block boiled out. Just take out all of the internals, and document their exact positions if you plan on re-using any of them. The block will come back sparkling clean, including the cooling passages.

Pete,the last time I saw damage like that with an engine with limited rotation there was a cylinder
wall cracked below that rusty piston.On my engine the head cracked into the cooling system and
when the piston began its downward stroke it filled the cylinder up with water.When that same piston began its upward stroke it hydralocked and the piston went sideways cracking the cylinder.
If thats what happened ,you can get the cylinder bored out and sleeved.That was my plan until
my machineshop found more cracks in the block.I was positive the damage was unrelated to the
fact I was turning about 7200 rpm at the time.Have your block checked carefully!

He hasn't got that far yet, has he? He hasn't even taken anything apart other than the heads.
There might not be any real damage to it. Sludge isn't fatal. Ask Joel.