Bad harmonic balancer or incorrect timing chain cover?

I just replaced the intake manifold gaskets on Ms. Roadie. While I was at it I changed the valve cover gaskets too. She's put back together and seams to be running okay. However I wanted to verify my timing; in doing so I noticed that the timing mark on the harmonic balancer is not at the right position when the light goes off. For my own personal sanity I have verified numerous times that I put the timing light connector onto the number 1 spark plug wire. I have verified several times that the plugwires are connected to the distributor in the right order. every time the light goes off the notch on the balancer is way on the passanger side around the 10-11 o-clock position. could a harmonic balancer get put on backwards so that the notch is in the wrong spot? example: the notch should be at the 1 o-clock position if installed correctly. say I remove it and turn the pulley around where the side that was installed towards the block is now facing out towards the radiator. This now puts the timing notch around the 11 o-clock position. Could this happen? I bought the car used with no knowledge of her repair history.

Long Story Short. . .

I think either my harmonic balancer is going bad, or there are replacement parts on my car that don't allow the Harmonic balancer timing notch to line up with the timing indicator on the timing chain cover.

Sometime hopefully tonight I plan on pulling the number 1 spark plug, insert a screwdriver into the cyclinder chamber, manually turn the crank till I get number 1 to TDC'ish; remove the distributor cap check to make sure rotor is pointing to number 1 location; then check timing mark on harmonic balancer in relation to timing indicatior on timing chain cover.

Any suggestions?

Okay. I pulled #1 sparkplug rotated motor till I felt the air puff out of hole. Rotor is pointing towards #1 on distributor. Looked down at the balancer and the timing notch/grove/cut is pointing more towards the 9 o-clock position. I don't know if it's spun or what. I took some pictures of the seperator from the bottom and there are a few bulges.
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Grabbing that thing and trying to move it by hand and there's no play what so ever. Took some pictures from the top looking down to the timing tab.




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You can barely make out that rusty spot on the far left side in relation to the timing tab. That's where the notch/grove/cut is on the HB. What the Heck??
Did GM ever produce engines with timing tabs at the 9-10 o-clock position? Could I just have the wrong Harmonic balancer on my car? Could this have come from the factory this way?

did you disconnect the wire to the distributor for base timing,.??

i,ve never had a tbi wagon so i,m not sure exactly where the connector is but usually not to far from the distributor, and usually lying on the intake somewhere i think,.

one of the tbi boys should know exactly,.probably stinger ooh,. he did allthis stuff just recently.

and i gather that when you mean the light goes off,. you actually mean it comes on or flashes on???

Nick


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ESC plug is on the passenger side of the intake near the TBI. Can't miss it.

Like Nick says, you're supposed to disconnect the plug, set your base timing, then plug it in. It advances the timing a whole bunch (35 degrees, IIRC?)

Yep I unplugged that connector. And yes I meant the light flashes on. I'm really at a loss. The car is running okay I just wanted to make sure the timing was right. You know that I got the distributor back into the right position. Which I'm sure I did. I'm not that comfortable with just adjusting it by listening to the motor. The only thing I can figure is that I have the wrong Harmonic balancer on my car. I'll keep searching online for more information on this. I really appreciate any help you guys can offer.

Thanks,
Shawn

I don't know if the balancer has slipped, but you can check to see if the outer ring is slipping.

Paint a witness mark on the balancer by drawing a line across the joint line, marking the inner hub and outer ring with one continuous mark.

Check the line after the next few drives; if it's slipping, the line on the ring will no longer match up with the line on the hub.

i,m pretty sure all small block chevys have the keway in the same spot on the crank,.

In your position, i,d put a screw driver in the spark plug hole and slowly come up till the piston just touched it, i,d then make a mark on the balancer, then rotate the motor the opposite way till the piston just touched it again,.make another mark,.then take a tape, measure between the two marks and find the exact 1/2 way point and mark it and you now have your proper TDC. Then measure the circumference of the balancer, divide by 360, and you'll have the distance between each degree,.millimeters is probably the easiest measurment to use. I use the wifes sewing tape measure,
If you don't have a fexible tape, use masking tape, wrap right around till it overlaps,
then slice it with a decent exacto type knife, peel it off and lay it flat to measure it,.
or use a piece of string etc,.
Factory tolerances in maching can stack up and get your timing mark off a deg or two,.
thats why the positive stop method for tdc is the most accurate,.but a pita,

as joe said, mark the inner and outers on the balancer away from your timing marks,.( i like to use a nice sharp scribe) and you'll see if the outer ring is walking,.

Nick

I'd bet money that the damper is slipping. These cars are old.

scoffman wrote:

Okay. I pulled #1 sparkplug rotated motor till I felt the air puff out of hole. Rotor is pointing towards #1 on distributor. Looked down at the balancer and the timing notch/grove/cut is pointing more towards the 9 o-clock position.

Which cylinder is no. 1?

- J

Cylinder No.1 driverside bank closest to radiator. Am I wrong? did the book lie to me again? Freak'n misprints how's anybody supposed to get things done when we can't even record things properly

But seriously it is driverside bank closest to the radiator right?

I won't get a chance to work on it again until friday night. I will try marking the damper and see if it's slipping. Then I'll go from there.

Yeah, that's #1. So mark the balancer and see where you stand.

I think it's #1 on every GM engine ever made. Some Ford V8's had #1 on the passenger side. Can't remember which ones. Maybe the MEL's.

jimbeau wrote:

I think it's #1 on every GM engine ever made. Some Ford V8's had #1 on the passenger side. Can't remember which ones. Maybe the MEL's.

Don't some Cadillacs have #1 on the right bank? (viewed from inside the car).

jimbeau wrote:

I'd bet money that the damper is slipping. These cars are old.

i agree.

I had to replace mine a few years back. I expect I'll have to do it again at some point.

look at any v8 engine, and whichever cylinder head is furthest ahead, then thats #1

Nick

and for all you google experts madly searching for something ODD just to prove it ain't always so,.go ahead.

I had a balancer let go on a 67 327/350 vette engine years ago and it made a hell of a mess.Had
to replace the radiator and fan but I was lucky.My shroud appeared to slow it down and limited
the damage to the engine compartment.That fiberglass body would have been a lot more costly
to fix.

"and for all you google experts madly searching for something ODD just to prove it ain't always so,.go ahead."

...too funny.

Oh, by the way: Ford didn't follow the "furthest forward is #1" rule on some flatheads, but I don't remember which years...

It's been a while, I finally got some free time to look at Ms. Roadie agian. I noticed when I took the pictures of the damper the other day that the water pump has been weeping so I decided to change that out as well. So tonight I pulled the fan belt, the fan/clutch assembly, and the damper pulley. I wanted to verify that the damper key was pointing to the driver side bank in relation to the timing notch. Well with the pulley off I see that the damper key is pointing at the 12 oclock position and the timing notch is pointing at the 10 oclock position. So previously I thought I had the engine close to TDC guess I was way off. I rotated the crankshaft until the timing mark was at the 12 oclock position. Now the rotor is pointing at the Number 6 contact? So I pulled the driver side rocker cover, the number 1 spark plug, grabbed a flash light and looked into the spark plug hole while I had a helper turn the crank shaft by hand untill she was at TDC. Guess what the rotor is pointing just past the number 6. I know I marked everything correctly when I removed the distributor, and everything matched up when I put her back together.

So I'm thinking when the previous owner had the intake gasket changed, he put her back together incorrectly, timing the motor to the number six cylinder. Could this explain the poor gas mileage I've been getting? Any way I know she's at TDC now and all I have to do is pull the distributor and drop it back in the right way and set the timing. Oh but first I'll finish bolting up the water pump, and get some coolant in her.

I've been using my wife's grocery get'r/child hauler (1997 GMC savanah conversion van) for my daily commute, and God I really miss driving Ms. Roadie. Don't get me wrong the van is comfortable and a nice ride but. . .All I can think about is Ms. Roadie on them long morning and afternoon drives. How she always keeps the car the right temperature no matter how cold or hot it is outside. . .How she handles those gawd awful potholes and patch jobs better than the van. Oh well I hope to finish things up on her tomorrow.

um 1+6 are the same thing kinda just 1 revolution of the crank away,.??(TDCx2)
theres 2 turns of the crank for 1 distributor,.
gotta make sure next time that the intake valve for #1 has just closed as it approaches TDC

leave the dizzy where it is, it runs,.if you pull it now, it,ll be 180 off,.IF it already was 180 off it wouldn't run,.

Nick

JaySS wrote:

scoffman wrote:

Okay. I pulled #1 sparkplug rotated motor till I felt the air puff out of hole. Rotor is pointing towards #1 on distributor. Looked down at the balancer and the timing notch/grove/cut is pointing more towards the 9 o-clock position.

Which cylinder is no. 1?

- J

As a general rule of thumb the #1 cylinder is always located on the leading bank of V-6,8,10 or 12 cylinder engine. One bank of the engine is always forward of the other bank and this is where the #1 cylinder finds home, no matter who makes the engine. Cylinders can not be directly across from one another, they are offset. Now, as far as how they number from there, each manufacturer takes that into their own hands.

J wrote:

As a general rule of thumb the #1 cylinder is always located on the leading bank of V-6,8,10 or 12 cylinder engine. One bank of the engine is always forward of the other bank and this is where the #1 cylinder finds home, no matter who makes the engine. Cylinders can not be directly across from one another, they are offset. Now, as far as how they number from there, each manufacturer takes that into their own hands.

phantom 309 first wrote:

look at any v8 engine, and whichever cylinder head is furthest ahead, then thats #1

Nick

and for all you google experts madly searching for something ODD just to prove it ain't always so,.go ahead.

echo-o-o-o-h,..

Thanks Nick for the advice. I've got Ms. Roadie purrrr'n like a kitten now. She's all timed up and running smooth. I still have a few things to put back together before I can driver her. Should have that all finished tomorrow morning sometime. I've really missed being able to driver her for my daily commute. Come Monday she'll be taking me into work as it should be.

Isn't it a great feeling, a real sense of accomplishment, when you repair a car yourself; not to mention the money you save.

Shawn