Torque converter recomendations 4L60-E

As some of you guys know that have been helping me,the trans in my 96 Roadmaster must come out
and when it comes out I would like to replace the torque converter with one that will give the car a little
better acceleration and still have the lock up feature. I have read about converters that people use
to improve performance that are from S-10 pickups,Astro vans,and Corvettes. I dont know which one to
use and I dont know what year engine size converter I should buy. Can anyone help me choose a nice
reliable not to expensive GM converter that will improve performance ,have the lock up feature
and fit my car and transmission. thank you ed

This is only my two cents: Any looser converter in that price range will make your car feel more mushy around town. I would not bother. If you were willing to step up, I've heard good things about the Yank SS-series (EDITED) converters but that's around $800 I think?

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Any looser converter in that price range will make your car feel more mushy around town.

My next trans swap will involve an Astro converter. I hope I enjoy the slight bump it is supposed to give... without being noticeably mushy.

I'm not trying to dissuade you (well, maybe I am), but make sure you guys understand that a torque converter is a fluid coupling. It's a donut with two fans in it, one hooked to the engine, and one hooked to the transmission. It does not add horsepower or torque. All it does is convert the engine torque produced at a given rpm to a lower rpm via fluid slippage. This can be accomplished by changing the blade angle, number of blades, and internal clearances. A converter that allows the engine to rev higher before it starts transferring torque is called "high stall" but it also means there's more slippage before your rpms get to that point. Now granted, this is a wee bit oversimplified, but unless you really step up to a higher-end torque converter, this is fundamentally what you are doing with a higher-stall converter. Unless you decrease converter diameter (which drives up the cost), a given higher-stall converter will always feel looser at part or light throttle. This means softer shift feel, and the snappiness of a stock LT1/4L60E setup in response to when you touch the gas pedal will be more mushy. Such higher $ converters like the Yank I mentioned get around that, and it's not rocket science, but it's not cheap either.

If I'm way off base here, somebody feel free to correct me. But I've heard way too many posts on the ISSF about guys putting in high-stall converters and then complain that the car feels sluggish around town and the shifts are soft.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

If I'm way off base here, somebody feel free to correct me. But I've heard way too many posts on the ISSF about guys putting in high-stall converters and then complain that the car feels sluggish around town and the shifts are soft.

you,re not way off base,. just not getting the good stall torque ratio idea of the factory s10, corvette, astrovan converters,.
stall torque ratio, i,m not good at explaining it,. but if you don't put too much torque thru the converter it doesn't slide,car will drive under light throttle like it doesn't have a converter,.
convertertechnology has come along light years from the first examples that were akin to driving a bus,. you hit the gasa little,. the converter slid right up to almost stall point, and then the car moved,.
Most hi-stall converters these days have lockups,good ones have decent clutches to hang on to hiperf engines,.
I would agree that with 2:56-2:93 i wouldn't add a yank 3600!! thats a bit radical and is even mushy with 3:73's,.it all depends on the stall torque ratio built into the converter,.street converter up to 3200 are usually set tight,. small diameter race converters flash easily to stall,.
A 2200 factory converter (S10 style) isn't even noticed till you romp it hard ,.

I just sold a really nice small diameter 2800 converter (9") it would drive like a stocker with the 3:73's,. but would flash , light the tries and stay at stall all the time i had the pedal mashed,.
I had someone in the car and we had driven around for half a day, they had no idea the converter was hi stall until, in fact there was a little ball busting going on about heavy old wagons etc,.then i did a little showing off out of the hole,.and he was real surprised how easy the car could get sideways,.

Ed,. i gave you some advice off line in a PM,.

One thing i will say is that if you ask the opinion of any car forum.. you will get more opinions than you can deal with,.
IF you are looking for verification fair enough,. but i don't give radical advice to folks about their cars,. and oft times i give advice that i personally wouldn't follow,.because i try to tailor my advice to that particular individual, and their particular combination etc,.

Joel do you have any real world experience driving anything with hi stall?


Nick

converters

If i was looking to buy a decent upgrade converter for a stock wagon,. i,d use these guys,.
I like the way they say 2200-2600, because no stall converter is an on-off switch,.
and they actually build them,.which i prefer to deal with the manufacturer rather than a retail outlet,.prices are fair.

Nick

Yep, driven and own both stock diameter 298mm and the smaller 245mm converters, and what you say is true.

I'm not blanket-rejecting buying a different torque converter. The sole point I'm trying to make is that if you increase the STR without decreasing the diameter from the stock 298mm, you will lose the crisp driveline connection at part throttle that you are used to with the stock converter. At the price point you are talking about, you will likely not find a 245mm converter because they require adapters and machine work, and that's part of what drives the price up.

That's all.

I enjoyed reading this thread. Gentlemen, thank you for your input.

Here is the straight poop from the "herd" Impala manual.....
Torque Converter Upgrade
By Scott Mueller.

Factory high stall converter:

I have a killer recommendation for a factory replacement torque converter for the Impala. GM offers torque converters of several different stall speeds for the 4L60E, 4L60, and 700-R4 transmissions.

The stock Impala converter is rated to stall at ONLY 1397 rpm! (actual stall will be anywhere from 1400 to 1600 depending on engine torque output), while the highest stall converter GM offers is rated to stall at 2025 rpm (actual stall will be around 2000 to 2200 rpm, depending on engine torque output). The higher stall speed also means greater torque multiplication which improves acceleration off the line. This also virtually eliminates the annoying creep while idling in drive as well as the clunk you sometimes get when shifting from park into either drive or reverse.

You can tell which converter you have by a 4-digit alpha code found on a sticker attached to the converter. Here are the codes on three converters I have seen:


DGHG = stock '94+ Impala converter
DBCF = '86 'vette converter
DBLF = '95+ L35 S10 truck converter
The code is interpreted as follows:


1st Digit = Transmission application
D = 1984-1/2 and up 700-R4, 4L60, 4L60E
C = 1984 and earlier 700-R4, 200-4R, 200C, 325-4L
B = 250C, 350C

2nd Digit = K-factor (stall speed)
K = K-85, 1211 rpm
G = K-100, 1397 rpm
F = K-110, 1611 rpm
E = K-115, 1654 rpm
B = K-140, 2025 rpm

3rd Digit = Clutch and Damper assembly
C = ? (stock '86 'vette)
H = ? (stock '94+ Impala)
L = ? (stock '95+ L35 Vortec S10 truck)

4th Digit = Rear cover
C = 3 lug round
D = 3 lug round
E = 6 lug
F = 3 lug square
G = 3 lug square
Now I know why going to the S10 converter felt SOOO good! The stock Impala converter stalls at under 1400 rpm!! Going to the S10 converter increases stall speed by 628 rpm, which feels very good indeed. Aftermarket converters are available in even higher stall speeds, but the factory 2025 rpm converter is an excellent, low cost upgrade that offers a very noticeable effect on performance without being too radical. After having one of these in my car for some time now, I'm not sure I would want anything that stalls any higher.

One area that some of the better (and more expensive) high stall aftermarket converters will excel in is durability in high HP applications. While the stock converter can live behind 300 to 350 HP with few problems, going to 400 HP or more can be pushing it. Actually in my experiences the trans will go before the converter, unfortunately when the trans goes the debris usually takes the converter with it (of course the opposite is also true).

Originally I had been recommending the '85-'86 Corvette torque converter as an Impala upgrade. As you can see from the 2nd digit code this is a K-140 converter, which is the highest stall factory converter available for the 700-R4, 4L60, and 4L60E transmissions. The original part number for the '85-'86 'vette converter was #8650919, which was later changed to #24201203. What I have found is that GM only sells torque converters as what are called remanufactured units, but depending on the converter application you order, you may actually get a new converter instead of a rebuilt unit. Unfortunately since the '85-'86 'vette is an older application, you will almost certainly get a rebuilt converter if you order under that part number. Not only will the converter be used (rebuilt), but since then some of the internal components have been upgraded.

To get the high stall converter in an updated form with the latest design, I recommend instead a similar K-140 high stall converter from a 1995+ 4.3L (RPO L35) S10 Truck V6 application (p/n 24202310). This new converter uses the same basic internal components (stators, etc.) as the 'vette converter, and as such has the same high stall speed rating (2nd digit code "B").

GM ranks converters by what they call a "K-factor", which indicates torque capacity and the resultant stall speed. Mark McPhail of GM Motorsports says both the '95 L35 Truck and the '85 Corvette converter described here have the same K-140 internals, resulting in the same stall speed given the same engine torque output. Since stall speed varies with engine torque, GM gives a rating of 2025 rpm, however it feels to me like this converter stalls at around 2200 rpm in a stock Impala.

I asked him why he would recommend this converter over the 'vette unit, and he gave two reasons. One is that since the L35 Truck converter is listed under a new part number for 1995 and newer applications, you are much more likely to get a brand new one when you order it instead of a remanufactured unit. Indeed everybody I know who has ordered the Corvette converter has received a remanufactured unit (including myself). I subsequently ordered the L35 S10 truck converter and indeed I received a BRAND NEW one!

The second thing is that the L35 truck converter has damping springs added to the TCC (Torque Converter Clutch) assembly. That may explain the code difference in the third digit. This does not affect performance per se, but apparently reduces noise and possible shudder or vibration when the TCC engages. Note that although the 4th digit code is different in the S10 and 'vette converters from the stock Impala converter (code "F" vs. "G"), the lug shape and mounting pattern is identical, I know because I installed them myself.

Finally, this new converter costs exactly the same as the 'vette converter. Both list for about $209.66, and sell for $157.25 trade price. I will say again that for just over $150 this has to be one of the best bang for the buck performance upgrades you can make for your Impala. The stall speed is 628 rpm higher than stock but is not in anyway too high for even a completely stock Impala. Remember this is a factory 298mm (11.73") torque converter with a TCC (Torque Converter Clutch) and is a direct replacement for the factory unit. Note there is an additional $35 core charge which you will get back when you return your stock converter to the dealer.

How old is this info?
has anyone actually tried to buy an S10 converter from a GM dealer lately?

nick

Is the S-10/Astro converter the same diameter as the Caprice?

phantom 309 wrote:

How old is this info?
has anyone actually tried to buy an S10 converter from a GM dealer lately?

nick

4/9- I will let you guys know if any of this stuff is available,I just called my brother in law at the Chevrolet
dealer where he works, I should have info by the end of the day. ed

O.K. I just checked my build records.
In building my V-8 LT-1 conversion on my 1994 GMC Sonoma pick-up,
I bought a GM torque converter, pt# 24202310 from Sting-Ray Chevrolet
on Feb 4, 2010 for $301.90, including core charge!-- and tax!

This is the one recommended on the Impala forum!
Further checking in my records shows that this same torque converter was
available from GM parts direct.com for $284.78 plus shipping.
OOps! that price included the shipping.
FYI : GM list price was $354.87, but the buy price was $210.27, as of Jan.2010.

It's now a reman unit from RMS auto for $350.

See my above link,..

phantom 309 wrote:

See my above link,..

I missed the linky...... sorry

Ask Crovo. I think is the last one from our group to go down the High Stall road.......

2200-2400rpm is not "high stall" by any means!

As a datapoint for anyone interested in the latest technology on converters, PATC has a nice webpage here. Notice the technology, the configurations, and the prices. Again, I am NOT trying to poke anybody in the eye or start any further discussion. Just a good page to read:

http://www.partshp.com/Converters.htm