To fix, or not to fix--that is the question

Hi there!  This is my first post on this forum so please excuse me if I break some basic rules/unspoken regulations.

In 2010 I found what so many of us dream of: the classic car owned by a little old lady and only driven to church on Sunday.  In my case, it was a 1984 Pontiac Parisienne wagon with only 35,000 miles on the odometer.  Having always been a fan of these old beauties I was ecstatic to find this in great condition.  Living in Virginia the most important things are making sure the car has no rust and working AC, and this car hit the mark in both areas.  The cost: $2500.  Bought it a week later.

Fast forward almost four years, and I am now facing the hardest decision of my life with this car.  On one hand, I love my wagon still; it has been for the most part a faithful vehicle that has played a large part in some great memories.

On the other hand my baby needs some serious work and I'm not what you would call wealthy.  I am appealing to the kind people of this forum for advice and counseling since very few people in my circle of friends and family have any experience with these sort of cars (for reference, I grew up in the minivan generation, but my heart aches for older cars and wagons in particular).

So without further ado here are the main things I know are wrong with my baby.  Thoughts or comments on worthiness of repairs are greatly appreciated.  My vehicle is completely original with no modifications.

1.  The carburetor.  My vehicle has the standard Chevy 305 with quadrajet carb.  This thing has never seemed to run great, but in the winter cold it barely seems to function at all.  Power drops to the point that highway travel becomes difficult, gas mileage goes from ~18mpg to ~11 or 12mpg (if I drive SUPER carefully), and starting it turns into a five minute ordeal wherein the car blows copious amounts of exhaust and "chugs" until it warms up and runs (relatively) smoothly.  If I try and start it up and drive away without warming up, the car will likely stall as the fuel economy meter (attached to the air intake, as I understand) drops and I'm guessing the engine is flooded with fuel.  I've wondered if the problem might be the choke, the fuel filter, the carb, or a combination of all three; finding someone to work on a carb in my area is impossible, and most people recommend replacing with a third party alternative.  The best option I have seen seems to be an Edelbrock 1406, but I wonder if this will kill my gas mileage or otherwise affect performance.  Anyone have experience with these?

2.  The brakes.  The master cylinder has had to be replaced twice, and the discs once.  Not too unusual for an older car that did a lot of sitting, I suppose.  Now the brakes are in need of repair again.  The light came on, the pedal felt squishy, but checking the fluid reservoir reveals a full level of fluid.  The brakes deteriorated and this is why I have had to park the car while I consider options.

3.  The shocks.  They're pretty much shot and the car rides a lot harder than it should.  Recommendations for replacement?  The rear shocks are, of course, the air shocks with the nozzle coming out the license plate screw.  Not sure it replacing with a like system would be worth it, especially since I don't do any towing and rarely use the wayback seat any longer.

4.  The radiator.  It has had a slow leak likely coming off of the water pump for a long time.  I've heard this is a common point of failure for these cars, but have avoided replacing it simply because spending ten bucks on coolant once every two months has made more sense than digging deep for a repair, but I don't want to do this forever for obvious reasons.

5.  The AC.  I've lived without it for two summers now, and I can continue if I have to.  There's no way I'll ever get R12 again for a decent price in Virginia (or anywhere else for that matter) and even if I could I'm pretty positive the compressor is shot.  What are the alternatives to just letting it rot away?

Well that's pretty much it.  My baby is hurting and as any car lover knows, when your baby hurts it hurts you just as much--if not more.  Money has been tight for a long time now, hence why so many of these issues have gone unattended for too long.  Do you think the car is worth saving?  The body is straight and strong, the tires fair, and when the engine is in the right weather it performs adequately, even if I won't be setting any records for lap times.

Thanks for taking the time to read.  I can gladly provide more information if needed, please just ask.

First off, WELCOME!!!!

To answer your questions, I have to make some assumptions. I assume that you have another vehicle to drive as it is "sitting" and that you have SOME mechanical ability to change parts?

On to the problems:

1.) Check online for a carburetor rebuild kit and rebuild it yourself. Cheaper and you end up with an intimate relationship with it....

2.) As for the brakes... Turn on the car for a min, pump the brakes until hard, turn off the car and hold the brakes. If they hold, the vacuum diaphragm is good. You should not need the whole master cylinder.

3.) Shocks. Easily replaced in your driveway with common tools. Find some cheepies online. If cost is the deciding factor, ditch the air ride.

4.) Radiator, I drove with a cracked radiator for more than 2 years. Keep an eye on the fluid level and concentrate on other stuff...

5.) AC. We drove for YEARS without it. You say you can live without it. My opinion is to do just that until you get the other (more important) stuff fixed first, then have it PROFESSIONALLY converted to 134A.

These are just my opinions and should be taken as such as I have been known to willfully and generously spend both YOUR time and money....

You have a 30 year old car, things deteriorate and wear out. Nothing that you have listed is that big of a problem to repair........common stuff. Like Superior said, you need to park it, and fix some of the problems. Take your time and pick off one at a time. I'm not sure I would recommend rebuilding that carburetor yourself. There are shops that specialize in rebuilding them.

Tom

My wife has a beautiful 86 caprice wagon that I love I'm having the carb rebuilt this weekend for 300 bucks keep the car of its your dream having it fixed and taken care of will be rewarding.  I have a 307

I think the fix or not to fix question has come to all of us before.  My transmission was 4X what I paid for the car in 2011 and any sane individual would have sold it for parts or scrap.  I'm not very sane.  Anyway, I would say yes just for the fact that you have the Pontiac Parisienne wagon.  Those aren't very common.

It's been said before, most of the issues are common mechanical based items.  Easy to find parts.  Be thankful it isn't cosmetic or trim related.

1) With the carb, I would rebuild what you have.  The quadjet is a good carb.  If its a computer controlled carb, then replacing it would lead to issues with the computer functioning properly.  It won't lock-up the torque converter of the 200r4 and could risk burning it out; not to mention bad fuel economy, ignition advance, and fuel enrichment metering. I would check the state of that system as well.  A bad vacuum hose or faulty sensor could make the engine run poorly.

2) What Superior said.

3) A lot of cheap shocks online via amazon, summitracing, or rockauto.  If the leveling suspension system works then yes maintain it.  If the compressor is shot or its manual leveling you could replace the rear with standard shocks or load adjusting coilovers.

4) Unless the radiator is pouring out constantly you can just top it off while other things are worked on.

5) When you get the cash have it professionally converted.  Until then, put the tailgate window and all the others down and enjoy a breeze.

Just my opinions.  I'm not an expert, but I am at my own experiences.  I own an 1989 Buick Electra Estate so I'm familiar with a few of the problems you mentioned.

The real question: Will it cost you more over the next 3 years to replace it with another vehicle, or fix this one?

Let's see some pics! Want to sell?

Do all of the above EXCEPT sell it,ignore him.Where in Va do you live because there are a few places where the altitude could play h*ll with a poorly adjusted carburator.I am in yorktown about an hour from va beach.Sounds like a real nice wagon that just needs a little care and maintenance.Hey bigbluey88,I sure hope they kiss you first before they start rebuilding your carb.  

Flasheroo one of my buddies is doing it that's why its so cheap   . Although  I  got him slightly iritated because when it comes to my vehicles i can be impatient whem something is wrong and i need the vehicle i want it fixed asap

Its been a long long time since I have had any dealings with a carb other than adjusting the air/idle screws so that might be a good price.How much is a rebuild kit nowadays?

Flasheroo wrote:

How much is a rebuild kit nowadays?

About $36...

http://quadrajetparts.com/rochester-quadrajet-parts-quadrajet-rebuild-kits-c-128_33.html

He said it could be less also hes going to take care of a valve cover gasket too for 300 he does still charge labor just not as much as a regular shop me having four kids and it being four degrees out I don't have the time nor energy to do it.

Sure I can post a pic.  This is when I drove myself and five friends to the Virginia Tech game at Fed Ex field in 2012 (we played the Cincinatti Bearcats.  I don't want to talk about how it turned out...).  Had a GREAT parking spot right near the entrance, and tailgated all day and then after the game.  Best part was that after the game everyone coming out was wondering aloud if they came out the right exit, only to then follow it up with "Yeah we're in the right spot because there's that station wagon!"  Also, person in the picture is not me, but as near to my doppelganger as anything, I am told.  We wagon owners are lucky to know the rare joy of two people in front, two in the back, two more in the wayback, and whatever you can strap to the roof rack weighing you down and keeping you on the road   



Back to business, however.

Sorry jayoldschool, even in the worst situation I don't know if I could part with this vehicle yet.  Still only has 77,000 miles and I believe there remains many good times to be had.

I've done some work myself, but I'm not super technical.  I can replace an alternator easily, check belts, top off fluids, change tires, and even help with brake work some but I'm pretty sure I'd only make my carburetor worse.  Can anyone recommend a good place to send it for rebuilding?  Finding someone locally to do it seems nigh impossible these days; the looks on mechanic's faces when you approach them to rebuild a carb do not inspire confidence...  Vacuum hoses will probably need to be replaced at the same time I suppose since it is such an old car.  The cruise control has never worked since I got it and I'm told that might be a vacuum hose.

Flasheroo--I live in Richmond, and the car was originally bought in Hampton (I'm lucky enough to be the second owner, and the original sales slip was still in the car when I got it--still have it somewhere).  Not a huge altitude difference there, and I don't think it was ever a mountain car anyway.  Still, I imagine the carb has not been touched since the day it came off the factory line sometime in '84.

Regarding shocks, what would your best recommendation be for someone looking for a smooth ride before performance?  I am a somewhat critically slow driver; when I'm in a rush I do the speed limit.  I've heard some say that Monroe Sensatracks are good for larger cars like this, and if it comes down to a difference of less than a hundred bucks for all four corners that will be a multi-year investment I'm not opposed to spending the money.

As for the brakes--I might have to get those looked at by a pro.  Right now there is almost no pressure in the lines it seems, with braking only coming as the pedal nears the floor, and pumping isn't helping.  The brakes on this car have been the one thing that have been chronically troublesome.

Just one more carb question--has anyone else experienced such a plummet in fuel economy in cold weather, combined with such a hard start?  And if so, what fixed it for you?  My biggest fear is that rebuilding the carb will not resolve this issue and it will be just as bad upon reinstallation as it was before.

few things to check on with the carb are the float, clogged jets, and choke. They are the reason we called them "rot-chester Quadra-junks. lol

As for rebuilding, they are not nearly as bad as people make them out to be. On my 13th birthday, my dad gave me a box of parts and a rebuild kit. Took me 3 months (pre-internet) to put it together, but in my defense, if I had taken it apart, I would have had a better idea where things went..... When I got it together, my dad installed it on his car to "check my work". Needed adjusting, but worked.

Point is, just replace the old stuff with new stuff and it should work. JMHO YMMV

Back in the early 2000s I bought an '84 suburban for cheap. It needed a carb rebuild, so I found a local boat / classic car mechanic and he did it for $125 parts included. Ran like a champ after that.

Don't mess around on those brakes. If you crash and hurt somebody, that will get expensive VERY fast.

if half the master is empty you have a busted line,.

the vacuum operated choke break diaphram and linkeage needs adjusting, need to check the 12V power to the thermostat on the side too,.
choke break pulls the choke plate open slightly after cold start to stop flooding and chugging etc,.

with the poor fuel mileage, choke not fully releasing, and cruise not functioning i,d look at poor vacuum,. hand help vacuum gauges are cheap and easy to use,.

leaky float, weepy fuel bowl plugs,.broken metering rod cam,.throttle plate bushings,. they were called ..rottenchester quadra-bogs for good reasons,.

1984 carbs are not computer controlled,.you might be happier with an aftermarket cheap aluminum intake and a 500 eldebrock carb,..

I have rebuilt a few quadrabogs,......

also check ebay,. new carbs are around $250,.but they still need to be "tweaked" after install,.

Superior Finish wrote:

They are the reason we called them "rot-chester Quadra-junks. lol

Hey, easy on the Rochester jokes huh.  Quadra Jets aren't that bad, try getting 100,000 miles out of a Holly, or Carter/Edlebrock, good luck.

kjps86, Nick's right about checking vacuum.... Try replacing all the vacuum lines first.... one at a time though. Really, one at a time.

Joel has a good idea with the classic car shop or marina, but you can rebuild the carb, it really isn't rocket science. Find a good carb manual, or a factory service manual and take your time, you'll be a pro at adjusting by the time you get done because you know what things affect what. You Tube is a good reference too.The main jet wells on the carb body leak on the feed back (computer controlled) carbs quite often ('84s had them, in the US anyway), may need to epoxy them while rebuilding. The rebuild kits usually come with the measuring/adjusting "tools" needed to adjust things.

First replace the vacuum lines though, that is important.

Mike

phantom 309 wrote:

1984 carbs are not computer controlled,

My '84 Cutlass has a computer controlled Rochester Dualjet 2-bbl with mixture control solenoid and TPS. I believe all the Quadrajets were set up that way to in 1984.

I tried my hand at rebuilding mine as the gas had turned to tar in it but never could get it right. I recently scored an NOS, never installed carb on eBay for $150. Purrs like a kitten now.   

Brakes are obviously the most important thing, period. Driving a big heavy car with questionable brakes is crazy. Part of the joy (insanity??) of owning an old car is getting to know it, and getting to know it involves working on it yourself. The worst part of working on brakes is replacing rotted brake lines. Replacing rotors, brake pads, rear drums and shoes, it is really not that hard. If your brake problems involve rotted lines, go to any Goodyear or other car repair center, and let them do the lines. It is usually no more than an hour or two of labor, and maybe $30 for the brake lines. They will obviously bleed the lines, and you will know that at least that problem is solved. Go online, get a book, and figure it out. The beauty of brakes is that while you are working on the left side, you can reference the right side to be sure you are doing it correctly. Honestly, I did my first set of disc brakes when I was 12 or 13 years old, back in the 70's, just by comparing one side to the other. I would also buy a few hand tools, a decent floor jack, and some jack stands. As the others have said, tackle the important stuff first, and check back here with any questions. I also did my first carb rebuild on the same car (my mom's 71 Impala) and it worked fine. By the way, I am no ace mechanic-I just took my time and didn't force anything. Good luck!

You weren't specific about the carb but I'm going to assume with the drop in mileage, there is black/blue smoke at times when it is running poorly.

Q-Jets have several problem area's as they age. One is that the choke quits working properly. If it does not fully open when the engine is warm, fuel mileage and starting will become a problem. As soon as the engine starts, the choke pull off (a vacuum diaphram) should open the choke about  1/8 th of an inch. If it does not, the engine will run rough, smoke and stall as it is warming up. They too fail with age. If I recall, that one has the electric choke. Not opening when warm may be something as simple as the electric thermostatic choke spring (or the wire going to it). Last one I bought was 30 or so dollars (been a few years).

Next problem area is the plastic float. After 30 years, it may be liquid logged which will cause rich operation and hard starting as well as flooding and poor fuel mileage. Third problem area is the lead well plugs. If they are leaking, symptoms will be the same as the previous problems.

The '81 and up 49 state Q-Jet has a mixture control selenoid (computer driven) and a TPS (throttle position sensor). These two items should set the check engine light if they fail, and will cause driveability and mileage issues too. If the check engine light is on, the oxygen sensor may also be faulty. Mileage usually takes a hit there too although cold driveability is unaffected.

A carb that old is likely ready for a rebuild. New, they are pricey ($300 plus) and rebuilding is not anything a novice wants to tackle, even though the kits are les than $50. The electronic Q-Jets are more complicated than the earlier ones and most people wouldn't work on the early ones either.

If the brakes are spongy, there may be air in the system, one side of the system is leaking, the master cylinder bad or the rear brakes out of adjustment. Flexing brake hoses also cause the same symptom although that is not very common. The adjusters (rear brakes only) do have a habit of seizing. When that happens, as the brakes wear, the pedal slowly gets closer to the floor and gives the feeling of sponginess.

Shocks are not difficult or expensive. Just get a good quality gas charged shock for the front. The rear can be the same, a load leveler shock, or an air shock.

I do all my own work, so a decision for me about the car would be easy. Keep it! For someone not mechanically inclined, and having to rely on others charging you, makes it a totally different ballgame. One last option is to replace the electronic Q-Jet and distributor (spark advance is also controlled by the computer) with pre-computer parts. This will take a level of expertise you don't have for the selection of parts that will work. And that expertise may very well be impossible to find in your area as well.

Well you certainly have good timing on your response to this message, as I was just getting ready to commit to getting the carb rebuilt.

I watched hours of videos on YouTube and read probably a novel's worth of material on various forums trying to decide whether or not to try to rebuild it myself, but ultimately have decided that without someone who has done it before to assist me I'd rather get a professional to do it.  To that end, I have identified two possibilities.  The first is a rebuild service where I send mine away and get it back again after the rebuild for $189+shipping.  Here is their site: http://www.carburetorusa.com/carburetor_usa_012.htm
The other site sends you the same model and you return the old one as a core unit for $198+shipping: http://www.guaranteedcarburetors.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=P4Q8T4477

I am kind of leaning towards the second option, but if anyone here has an opinion on the matter I'd like to hear it.

I will get the brakes done by a professional.  I'm not handy enough to trust my own abilities on such an important job.  Safety first.

As for the shocks, I will probably do those on my own.  I've considered Monroe shocks in the past, but of course money is still an issue.  I don't mind paying for quality, but I do feel there is a bit of the law of diminishing returns at play in regard to car parts.  I'm looking for a smooth ride that will keep the car relatively level in corners and prevent it from pitching forward when braking.  Any specific recommendations?

And for the record, here is a picture of the carburetor with the air cleaner removed.  I understand that the blue plug on top means that yes, it is computer controlled.

" />

Good choice on farming out the carb rebuild. Last year the computer controlled Dualjet (half a Quadrajet) on my Cutlass won the rebuild battle by refusing to work right. I worked slow and deliberate to no avail. Wound up finding an NOS carb on eBay which cured all ills.   

The blue plug on top is the mixture control solenoid and the off-white connector on the front is the TPS.