Tire wear. Not spindle but steering box?

Ok, so I've posted about this before. Never been able to find the real issue with the vibration in the car. Replaced tires, short term fix. Replaced u-joints and for a short bit, it seemed to be better, but then it came back. The wife didn't have the strength to shake the front end while I looked at it, so I finally videod it with my phone.

This issue I am having is this:



Sorry its upside down, but you can see the issue. Its been like this for months. Been to 3 different shops, no one ever tells me what is wrong. No one even has an idea what is wrong. They just align it and kick it out. But, when they rotate the front right to left rear, I end up finding the inside is worn more than the outside.

I have many more videos that focus on each individual part, but leading back to the steering box. Should it move like this?

After watching the first video I thought wheel bearing? Then I watched the second, I'm not sure.

Tom

If you have wear on the inside of the tire, you could have either bad ball joints, or worn bushings. Those are the usual cause of that type of tire wear. I can not view the videos, but a steering box can also wear out. It could cause the symptom, if there is play in the output shaft bearing.

The cost of replacing the bushings yourself is not tremendous. You do need the tool to press them out and the new ones in. There are write-ups here and on the ISSF. The steering box is not all that difficult to swap either. You will probably need a pitman arm puller and tierod end separator.

Check your idler arm.  See if there is any up and down movement. Also check that the ball joints are not loose in the control arm.

In the last year, it's got new top and bottom ball joints on both sides. All the tie rods, drag link, and idler arm were also replaced. The bottom control arm was replaced because the new ball joint I pressed in would not stay. So it's got new bushings. Every thing still feels tight on the ball joints.

Looking at the gearbox video, I am curious if I should be able to move it like that? I think that's the source of the play, but i suppose it has to be able to move some until it hits the lock in the steering column.

What about your upper control arm bushings? They usually go long before the lowers. This looks like what my 96 did, here's a video of how mine failed:

mine is not up and down though. I am grabbing the front and rear of the tire and turning it. If I grab to and bottom, it have little to nothing. I will still look at it tonight, but not sure its the same thing.

Look at the uppers for centering on the shaft. If they are not centered, they probably need to be replaced.

If you have a lot of play in the steering box output shaft bearing, replace the box.

Looks like Fred is on to the right track, there does seem to be a lot of play in the output shaft of the gear box.

There should be virtually no play in the steering box shaft.

What are classifying as play though. Front what I see, it's rotating like the car is being turned. How much of that is allowable? I understand if the output shaft was not rotating but moving side to side. My other two vehicles are rack and pinion, so I can't compare apples to apples.

Play means any motion that is not rotary. It does not matter if it is front to back, or side to side, it will affect the position of the wheels relative to each other and to the road.

ok, so jacked up the car again this week end. Made sure to support it by the a-arm and wiggled. I see no play in the upper or lower a-arm bushings. So, back to the steering gear. I put a pry bar on it and get no up and down/side to side wiggle. The only play I see is rotational, like its being steered side to side. I don't know how much is allowable, I don't find any specs on it. I hate to replace the steering box if that's not the real issue. It is, however, about the only other thing I haven't replaced.

Any one with a normal driving car checked this rotational movement before?

When you are driving, do you have a "dead" zone at center? If so, how many degrees is it?

You can adjust the steering box by tightening the input shaft play, and then the output shaft play. The FSM has the specs. I posted the instructions a while back. I do not know exactly where they are (you can find them in the FSM). You need a spanner for the input shaft, and a hex driver for the output shaft. You can do it on the car, but it is easier on the bench. There should be almost no rotational play in the steering box. Some are worn to the point that they can not be adjusted satisfactorily.

Ya, I've got a dead zone. Not sure how many degrees but noticable. I'm so used to it, when I drive my truck I find myself zig zagging because I'm used to compensating for the play.

I guess ill bench test and adjust. I have to remove the steering line to get the shaft cover off anyways.
For 128, I can get a reman, so not terrible since its in stock and if this doesn't work, I can have it same day.

Don't hand over your core steering box until the reman is in and your happy with it. A lot of these remans are just resealed units that may or my not be worse than what you have now.

95BRMW wrote:

Don't hand over your core steering box until the reman is in and your happy with it.  A lot of these remans are just resealed units that may or my not be worse than what you have now.

Agreed. Re-man boxes seem to give me the most grief out of all re-man parts I've replaced on numerous cars, and trucks. Most have more slop than the box I'm replacing.

Looks to me like the box has a bit too much rotational play to. Jack up the car so the tires are just off the ground, wiggle the steering wheel back and forth to the point just before you see the tires moving. You shouldn't get more than an 1" - 1 1/2" of movement. Do that same trick while the car is on the ground, and have your wife wiggle the steering wheel while you're looking at all the linkage to confirm what you're thinking. Try adjusting like Fred said before replacing the box because of what I said above.

It almost looks like the pitman arm nut is stationary, but the arm has a 1/4" of play? That would be unusual, but could the play be from a once replaced Chinese pitman arm? Hard to say.

For giggles give your rag joint a look see. Those will give you some play too if the rubber is bad.

Just an fyi on making videos when dealing with this type of issue. Put your car on jack stands for safety reasons, and so the car is firmly set, then put your camera on a solid surface too. It's hard to look at small amounts of play when the whole car, and/or screen is moving a bit.

Ya, when I am actually under the car I use jack stands or have the wheels on blocks. But better safe like you said.

The pitman arm is a moog unit put on just over a year ago. I saw what your saying, it does seem to deflect some. I'll do the gear box this weekend and see what happens.

well looked all over and cant find the FSM for this. anyone got it around or just the specs?

The steering system is the same for all B-bodies with a few exceptions for the stabilizer shock, and the variable assist. You can get the specs in the Haynes Manual, if you can not find an FSM. The linkage and box is the same for all wagons. The only exceptions are the 9C1s and the Impalas that have a tighter ratio. If you find a 9C1 or Impala box you can bolt it in, and get the faster ratio. I like the feel of the faster ratio. If you are buying a rebuilt box, and ask for a 2.5 ratio, be careful. Some of the 2.5 boxes have the internal stops set for that figure, but they do not turn as far, and it will affect your turning radius.

The pitman arm is probably fine, it is not a wear item. If you are worried about the pitman arm, get a used one from the junk yard. The length is important, but any wagon will be the same. The Caprice sedan should be the same too. They are not readily available new, and since they are not a wear item, it does not matter if you put a used one on the car. The pitman arms are a pain to get off, and install, so if you do not have to remove it, don't. It could be loose, but it gets tight very quickly when you tighten the nut. You might try giving the nut a twist to make sure it is tight. The torque is 179 lb. ft.

If you can find a steering intermediate shaft with a good boot at the top, it will probably have a good universal. You can rebuild the rag joint if it is loose.

You already know that the steering box is loose, because you have a fairly wide dead zone at the center of the steering, so the intermediate shaft is probably not an issue. If it was the intermediate shaft rag joint, it would probably have more to one side than the other.

As Fred said, the arm isn't a wear item and is probably fine.  Be careful if you do go looking for another as they are different (found that out the hard way).  Here's a comparison of the 3 I came across:


Left to right: 96 RMW, 96 Fleetwood, 96 Impala ss


Left to right: 96 SS, 96 RMW, 96 Fleetwood

I wonder if the idler arms are different lengths. Especially from the wagon to the Impala. I would think they are, unless the steering gear is mounted in a different spot. the different length of the FW is because of the increased wheelbase, but the difference from the wagon to Imp does not make sense, except to increase the rate that the wheels turn with a given steering input.

Do impalas have the variable steering?

Variable steering was a Buick/Cadillac feature.

I bet that plays into the different length pitman arm