No fuel pressure

I was driving down the highway a few days ago at about 70mph on a flat straight stretch of road with the cruise control set. All of a sudden my wagon lost power and I coasted to the shoulder. It would crank fine but no start. I had it towed home.

I just hooked up a fuel pressure gauge to the test port and I'm reading 0 pressure with key to run position engine off. I also get 0 psi when cranking. I can hear the fuel pump running with key on. If I cycle the key to off and run enough times I can get it to sputter just once, but still 0 psi on the tester. I get the slightest fuel vapors when I manually release pressure at the test port. What should I test before dropping the tank to check for a disconnected line inside the tank? If I can hear it running, does that mean that everything should be ok from an electrical standpoint? Could it be a problem with the fuel pressure regulator?

I replaced the pump/sending unit last year with a DELPHI HP10014. I also replaced the fuel pressure regulator with a DELPHI FP10004.

Thanks.

UPDATE: I forgot to mention that I do not have any DTC's set.

have you checked to fuel filter?

Mine has had some running issues and found the fuel filter plugged nearly solid, otherwise it might be that the small hose going from the pump to the sending unit somehow got disconnected.

But if you can hear the pump then it's not electrical unless the pump itself somehow broke apart internally so that the pump motor runs but it's can't pump.

you didn't specify the year. The TBI cars are prone to the hose that connects the pump to the sending unit splitting, but you said you had replaced it all last year.

I would say try the fuel filter (at least take it off and blow through it to see if clogged and then turn the key on with the fuel line in a coffee can and see how much gas comes out on the 2nd prime. it should be a few ounces I would think. If it's a dribble, then in the tank you go. assuming you checked the lines for leaks.

It's a 96. I'll test at the fuel filter tomorrow.

Life happens...I finally got around to testing this. I disconnected the fuel filter and cycled the key on. I get fuel spewing out of the line. I wonder if there is a way to hook up a fuel test gauge to the open line to test fuel pressure? I guess I can rent the tool again and see if I can figure something out.

After I removed the fuel filter, I obviously had fuel leaking out of the filter. I tipped it both ways and it seemed to leak out about the same on each end. I don't know if that is conclusive that it is not plugged, but I'll replace it again anyway since it is already off and it is cheap enough to do. My concern then would be how would a fuel filter get so plugged in less than 2 years. When I dropped the tank for the new pump the tank didn't look terribly dirty. And wouldn't a plugged filter be a more gradual process where I would notice performance issues? I had none of that. It ran beautifully right up to the point where it stopped running.

If not the fuel filter then what else could be causing 0 pressure at the test port? Fuel pressure regulator? Fuel injectors? Could there be a bad fuse or relay somewhere? I'm going to see what I can find in the FSM but sometimes if anyone has pointers that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

I just picked up a new fuel filter and the fuel pressure test kit. There is nothing in the test kit that will connect to the quick connect fuel line. I put the new filter in with just the inlet side and was able to rig the test kit up to the outlet end. Still no pressure with the new filter. I can definitely hear the pump priming with the key on. It seems to me that I'm at the point of dropping the tank. Has anyone ever encountered this? Any suggestions as to what I should be looking for? If the fuel pump looks ok visually, how do I test it?

My take is that the hose in the tank is not connected between the pump and output line, or the in tank hose is cracked.

You said you replaced the sending unit recently with a Delphi one? If so, another member (94woody) just had a similar problem where the internal hose came off a very low mileage Delphi sending unit, and I have a local (non-internet) wagon buddy with a similar problem (pump runs but no pressure on the rail). Try removing the sending unit and see if the hose is still fully on the fittings.

Thank you for the replies. I'll be heading out in a few minutes to drop the tank. Unfortunately, I had just filled the tank before this happened so I'm guessing this will be a bear. Last time I was lucky with less than 5 gallons, and that was still a pain. I'm hoping a transmission jack will make things easier this time.

My fuel pump was broken and yet, I could still hear it running when I started my car. So, the sound of the pump is not a realiable indication

just recently had a fourth sending unit put in my 94 RMW the problem with number three sending unit turned out to be something similar to what has been mentioned concerning the hose between the sending unit and the pump, but in my case the hose had split.

The process the shop used though requires two people. first the tank was dropped and sending unit removed but then plugged back into the vehicles harness while the unit was mostly submerged in a bucket of gasoline. Then with one person by at the sending unit, a second person cycled the switch to the on position, the pump activated and pumped out some gas, the key was cycled off, then when it was cycled back on a second time the person at the sending unit put their finger over the output and when the pump kicked in it showed the split in the hose.

If the hose had been good it would have forced the guys finger off the outlet, problem was after a full day of looking they found out that the hose is a special size and can't be ordered so the only thing they could do was get yet another whole sending unit.

Well, it turns out that the fuel line between the pump and sending unit split. Sounds like a common problem from the replies. The worst part is no one has submersible fuel line locally. Since I have to order something, does anyone know if there is a direct replacement with all the bends in it? Otherwise, what is the best product to use and how should I install it? Meaning, what kind of bends or loops should I put in it? Does the bend serve a purpose? Thanks.

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I measured the inside diameter of the hose at 8mm so 5/16" should work out ok.

The bends in the hose allow the pump mount to slide up and down the return line, and not collapse the hose.

I think maybe it might be with the Delphi part, the first two that went in on my car where spectra but on the first one the guage would be reading 1/8 tank left, but I would only put in about 15 gallons before the gas pump would click off with the cars gas tank being full, The second unit the gas gauge just stopped working, found out on that one that somehow the float had gotten disconnected from the unit, number three was the first Delphi and it went the route yours did within a couple weeks though, but now this has me worried as it was another Delphi unit that was put in under warrenty.

The only good thing about having a shop do the job instead of doing it yourself, if something goes wrong the shop has to warranty it out at no cost to you.

Pretty good place for anyone who ends up in Stevens Point Wisconsin that needs to get work done is D&D automotive, as they are also a performance shop and they have a very simple loaner car program, you get the loaner with a full tank and return it with a full tank and that's it, and you can use it for as long as he has your vehicle.

Ah yes, welcome to my world.

The very expensive Delphi assembly is complete garbage because of that stupid hose. I got a couple hundred miles out of mine before this happened....

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Happened with 3 miles on a full tank. Even though I knew better my stupid self put the hose back on and secured it with a couple of clamps. I made it 117 miles before it once again left me stranded. This time the hose ruptured just like yours.

I was very, very angry when it failed the second time even though it happened at work. SO much so that I ripped out the carpets/seats and took a cutoff tool to the floor pan. I destroyed the unit while removing it so warrantying it is not an option. There was no way in hell that I was dropping this tank for the 5th time.

Thankfully Auto Zone carries this unit for $90 and free next day delivery instead of the $350 plus days of shipping that Rock Auto charges. SO I grabbed one of them and put it in. This one has a better looking hose on it that is hopefully fuel rated.

No such thing as quality parts these days. Pretty sure this one will fail soon so at least changing it every month will be quick.

Before these I installed a Spectra unit with the nylon hose. It also developed a hose in THAT line so I went the expensive route figuring it would be fool proof, WRONG. I should have left it alone to begin with because the guy I bought it from had just installed a new Delco pump. The fuel gauge was off though so I decided to mess with it. 3 different units later and the gauge is still screwy.

I struggled with what to do about the warranty. My unit is still under warranty but I didn't want to risk getting another piece of crap hose. I'm hoping that putting on, what should be, a decent quality hose I will be good for a while. I wonder if those single ear clamps are part of the problem with the hose falling off? I ended up ordering some because I couldn't figure out what was a good quality stainless screw type clamp. I was able to pull the hose off the sending unit with not much force. I wonder how long it would have been before it slipped off on its own. The pump end, which is plastic, was a really tight fit though. I really had to work that clamp off.

Of course they put one end on tight, and not the other. SOP.

Mine fell off because the non fuel safe line swelled up and the cheap clamp swelled with it. Double clamping held it tightly but the hose was still garbage and eventually split. I will warranty this one if it fails since AZ is a mile from my house.

Interesting thing about the 2nd Delphi unit is that it was made in June and the problem hose is not a Delphi part. It was made by Sunsong a provider of cheap hoses that can be found at Rock Auto. That can be a good thing or a bad thing.

Speaking of Rock Auto and cheap, stay away from their LT1 A/C compressor hose (suction and discharge) set. Schrader valve port snapped right off of the one I bought with zero force.

I put everything back together and everything seems to be fine now. I have 35 psi at the test port and the car drives fine.

The replacement hose was a lot more rigid. It was very difficult to bend it without kinking it. I ended up with a wider radius in my bend so I had to manipulate it back into the tank. It does allow the sending unit to slide up and down ok. I took the picture before tightening the clamp.

Something I noticed is that the barb on the metal line of the sending unit seems to be a bit thin. As I mentioned previously, I was able to slide the old hose off fairly easy. My first attempt at fastening the new hose was a fail. I used the single ear crimp clamp. I had it tightened to the point where it felt like any further and I may damage it. However, I was able to pull the hose off the sending unit. Not as easy as the original but more than I was comfortable with. So I removed it and tried again. This time I really pinched it tight. It really felt like it may break. The clamp was digging onto the hose a good amount and I could not pull the hose off. Hopefully it will hold forever.

I also hit a snag with clamping the pump end. I didn't realize the clamp needed to be as close to the pump as possible to allow the plastic cover the snap on. My first attempt didn't allow the cover the snap shut so I had to redo it.

One last thing. I was looking in the FSM for the spec for the pressure at the test port. The FSM pointed me to section 6E3, not 6E-3. This is the third time I've been pointed to section 6E3 in the past couple of weeks. I can not find that section anywhere. Maybe I don't know how to use the manual? Is there another book that I'm missing? I have 2 books, 1 and 2 of 2. What am I missing here?

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I havn't looked in my service manuals yet but there are only two.

But the mechanic I use in Stevens point said on mine it should be between 40 to 50 psi at the rail

Can someone help me out with finding section 6E3 in the FSM?

Also, if my pressure is a bit low now then what's left? Weak pump? Bent or crushed strainer? The hose should not have kinked when put in the tank as pushing it down would relieve pressure on the bend, not add to it.

The pump holder moves up and down with the bottom of the tank. It has some pressure on it, because you must compress the spring when you put it in the tank. Installing the pump sender unit, you push the  mount up, and it puts more pressure on the bend.

Haze5736 wrote:

Can someone help me out with finding section 6E3 in the FSM?

Also, if my pressure is a bit low now then what's left? Weak pump? Bent or crushed strainer? The hose should not have kinked when put in the tank as pushing it down would relieve pressure on the bend, not add to it.

I don’t have a 96 manual but 6E3 is in the front of book 2 in the 94 and 95 manuals that I have.

In book 2 of my 96 manual the front has a page 6E-3. I guess this was a typo 3 times in the various places that pointed me to 6E3. However, 6E-3 is not a section, it is a single page, an index. And it does not list anything for Fuel System Diagnosis. I had to thumb through the book to find Fuel System Diagnosis, which starts on page 6E-53.

This may all seem trivial but it is a HUGE hassle during the throws of a job when trying to get something done and your brain is fried from all the aggravation and hours of smelling gas fumes.

Anyway, I finally found what I was looking for, confirmation that fuel pressure should be 41-47 psi. Looks like I may be dropping the tank AGAIN!

On the bright side, I am getting better and more efficient at it.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The pump holder moves up and down with the bottom of the tank. It has some pressure on it, because you must compress the spring when you put it in the tank. Installing the pump sender unit, you push the  mount up, and it puts more pressure on the bend.

This is correct for my original hose which had bends, not a loop. Since my replacement is so rigid I could not bend it the same as the original. I had to make a loop. In my case when the spring compresses and the pump holder gets closer to the top of the sending unit, tension is relieved on the loop.

I bought a cheap fuel pressure tester instead of borrowing the one from Autozone like I had been doing. It seems that the Autozone tool may not have been accurate. I borrowed the coolant system pressure tester yesterday and the pressure gauge did not rest at 0, it was resting at about 15 psi. I did make sure to press the pressure relief valve to be sure. It must be that the tools get abused or they get used so much they wear out.

Anyway, I am getting 44 psi on prime. After prime it drops to about 40 psi and hold steady. I let it sit for a few minutes to make sure it would hold. I'm getting 34 psi while running. Disconnect the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line and I'm back to 44 psi. The manual states that pressure should drop by 3-10 psi when engine is running. So I'm at the upper threshold of 10 psi. So am I correct in concluding that my fuel system is performing normally?

You're okay for now. Use an OBD2 scan tool to see what the fuel trims are doing. If they're within +/- 10%, I'd call it done.

I grabbed some fuel trim data.

Here it is at idle not long after starting it.
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Here it is at about 2200 rpm.
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Here it is  after running for a while. Both banks started coming down. Bank 2 more so.
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And here's a shot of the upstream o2 sensors.
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Hot Damn! I got 300 miles out of this one. Swelled and ruptured hose just like the last one.

To top it off I now have some new dents to repair.

Are you going to warranty it again? My opinion is that you're better off buying the replacement hose like I did. The new hose is way more robust than the original. I can't imagine it ever splitting. Not sure about falling off but I was able to clamp mine on nice and tight. I may be fooling myself, but at this point I feel good about the repair.

I still have concerns over the fuel trims but that may or may not be related to the pump and is definitely not related to the hose.

No warranty being messed with. It will just get me another unit that will fail in a couple of weeks.

I ordered the factory style corrugated line last night so that I can fix it for good.

Where did you find the factory style line available?

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Where did you find the factory style line available?

A thread over at ISSF and a Google search for Corrugated In Tank Fuel Line. 11 bucks for a 9.75” section and two clamps from Amazon. Guaranteed safe when submerged in Gasoline. Ethanol and E85 safe as well.

Line arrived today and I got it installed. Car is running again.

The hose is from a company called Goodies Speed. Part number 75114. Super flexible and made a perfect loop. Wasn’t even difficult to stretch over the fittings.

hopefully the last of that drama for a long time!

I went out with some brake cleaner yesterday and I'm pretty sure I have an air leak at the intake gasket. It seems to be on the passenger side near the corner by the firewall. I could hear a slight rpm change when spraying the brake cleaner in that area.

Any tips on the gasket replacement? I have not looked at the procedure in the FSM yet but assume it is fairly straight forward. The Fel-Pro kit seems to have everything I need. Including the injector o-rings and some sealant. What should I expect for completion time having never done one before? Am I looking at a day or the whole weekend? Is there anything else I should do while I'm in there?

Haze5736 wrote:

I grabbed some fuel trim data.

Here it is at idle not long after starting it.
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Here it is at about 2200 rpm.
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Here it is  after running for a while. Both banks started coming down. Bank 2 more so.
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And here's a shot of the upstream o2 sensors.
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youtube it first, as I have seen some of them doing similar ones on youtube, primarily the Camaro and firebirds, and if you have the right tools you do not need to pull off the fuel rail or the throttle body. contrary to what the FSM says which is complete dismantlement, but you will need to drain the coolant no matter what.

otherwise one thing might be the oil pressure sensor which is back behind there

well chalk another one up for Delphi went to start up my rmw to go to a farmers market and car show they where hosting and wont start and no pressure at the fuel rail waiting to hear from my mechanic on if he wants to have someone come down to pick the car up or if he's alright with me sending it to a local napa certified shop to have them do a warrenty repair and hopefully I can get her back up and going before sunday

Wherever it goes tell them to just change out the hose for a properly rated one. You will just keep changing the senders out if not.

If you can put a picture of your split hose in this thread. I am going to contact Delphi, Rock auto, autozone and everyone else I can about this bulls&*t part they are selling to people. More pictures of failed parts the better.

If I there had been a way I could have gotten the car from De Pere Wisconsin to Stevens Point Wisconsin at no cost to me I know my mechanic there would have been doing the hose, but for towing to be covered I had to stay local and am taking a chance on a shop I've never used before, but I will be calling them in the morning to ask them to take pictures of the sending unit and the failure method if possible or saving the unit till I pick up the car so that I can take pictures.

Sadly guy at the conter didn't seem to want to believe me when I told him it was the sending unti again especially when I told him this was the fourth one. the first was a spectra and the gas gauge was way off, had the shop replace it and they used another spectra and the gauge didn't work at all, the owner said he didn't want the guys spending any more time on my car and that the gas gauge isn't important anyways. Ended up in Stevens point had my mechanic up there look at it, he put the first Delphi unit in and gauge was working again but still off, a couple weeks later when I was up there helping out at a rock swap the car wouldn't start in the parking lot, had it towed to the mechanic and Monday they pulled the pump and discovered the split hose, then this morning unit four goes out, thankfully so far when the unit has gone out it's always been when it's not an emergency, or where I would be getting left stranded. So now I have to drive my slow poke Pontiac Safari to work tomorrow.

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here you go, the shop got the green light to put on another hose so they did one that is supposed to be good for up to 800 psi burst, so we'll see. still sucked that I ended up having to pay 150 for having to have the car towed in. and all shops our outside my AAA 5 mile free towing radius.

Thanks for the picture.

As long as the hose is rated for fuel submersion it will be good.

I replaced the intake manifold gaskets. After letting the fuel pump prime a few times it started right up. At idle the fuel trims looked good.

However, after a couple of drive cycles my check engine light came on. I looked in the manual for the code setting criteria and it did confirm that this code will come on if the condition exists after 2 drive cycles.

Code P1441 - EVAP System Flow During Non-Purge Condition. I checked the top port on the evap canister purge valve and it was not able to hold vacuum. So it seems the valve is bad. It turned out that I had the vacuum hoses connected incorrectly after doing the intake manifold gaskets. I had the throttle body hose connected to the bottom port which is opposite from what the label under the hood indicates. Although, connecting them the wrong way made more sense based on how everything is routed. Or I disturbed everything and didn't get it all put back together the same. Is it just coincidence that the valve went bad or could my hooking it up wrong cause the failure? Do these valves just go bad or should I suspect a bad charcoal canister also?

I replaced the purge valve and after several drive cycles the engine light went out. My fuel trims are now really close to 0 at idle and the car seems to run great. Definitely seems like it has more power and since I cleaned the throttle body thoroughly when it was disconnected, my throttle response is excellent. My throttle body was very dirty on the back side. The air passage looked like it was nearly clogged. I'm crossing my fingers that I'm done for a while.