So Now What Broke....

Have a weird surging/ stalling issue and I just can't figure it out. Last week got a no start in the rain. Ended up needing a tune up. Installed NEW plugs/wires/cap/ rotor. Drove absolutely great for a week. Today, stalled out on my way home. Got it cranked up again. Stalled a 2nd time and died for good. My fathers friend happened to be in the area, swung over helped me troubleshoot it. Noticed the fuel pump wasn't priming ended up being a bad relay. Swapped in a new one, started and got me home. Later it started to idle rough, almost had a surging feel to it. So now i'm stuck and not sure where to go with it. So to recap:

New plugs/wires/cap/rotor. Car IS timed correctly. Has a new fuel pump relay. Fuel pump and sending unit have appx 5k on them. Plugs/wires have 100 miles on them.

Did you put a fuel filter on? Just thinking with my fingers........

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

Did you put a fuel filter on? Just thinking with my fingers........

Fuel filter was done when we did the pump. So figure about 5k on the filter as well. And I don't let the car go past half a tank so I dont think it'd be clogged.

Did you check your fuel pressure?

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

Did you check your fuel pressure?

Not yet. Where would I check it from?

Not sure on the TBI cars. The LT1's have a valve by the intake.

BigBlackBeaSSt wrote:

Not sure on the TBI cars. The LT1's have a valve by the intake.

The TBI's dont, apparently you can buy one aftermarket but they cost like $50. I remember going thru this when I was diagnosing my fuel pump issue.

Justin,

Get one of those fittings that go between the TB and fuel line so you can check you pressure, make life a lot easier. Why did the relay go bad?, cheap and/or bad pump? Need to check fuel pressure. Make sure the plugs are tight, and the wires are fully seated on the terminals.

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Mike

Well thats certainly better than the $50 I saw before for that adapter. No idea why the relay went bad. Old age I'd guess? It was a Bosch so i'm guessing it was the original to the car. Tomorrow I'm going to (re)check all the plugs and wires. But for some reason I just have this gut feeling its something fuel. Like I said, the car ran AMAZING all this week after the tune up. And then this morning, bam. But it also doesn't feel like when my FP went last time. So thats why i'm so lost.

You can get the adapter here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They are $40. There is also one available on ebay for a little less, but it is not for permanent installation.

What brand of pump did you install last time?

Did you totally clean and re-hab your ground by the thermostat housing. Whe the engine is cold, remove the stud, use a wire brush (gun cleaning round brush for the threaded hole) clean the threads in the manifold, clean the threads on the stud, clean the lugs, and the nuts. Corrosion in this area will cause symptoms similar to a failing fuel pump...car stalls, will not idle good, generally runs poorly. You may have bumped/disturbed the wire while doing the tune-up, and temporarily fixed the problem.

The aggravated symptoms in the rain indicates that it might be a water absorbtion issue with any corrosion around the ground. It does not have to rain on the part, just the higher humidity could be enough to cause it. It is a cheap fix if it works. If it does not change anything, you know it is not that issue, it did not cost anything, and is still time well spent to avoid a future issue.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

You can get the adapter here. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They are $40. There is also one available on ebay for a little less, but it is not for permanent installation.

I'll just go with the one Mike posted. $40 for a small piece of cnc'd metal is too rich for my wallet right now.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

What brand of pump did you install last time?

Bosch? I think. Only one Advance had in stock.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Did you totally clean and re-hab your ground by the thermostat housing. Whe the engine is cold, remove the stud, use a wire brush (gun cleaning round brush for the threaded hole) clean the threads in the manifold, clean the threads on the stud, clean the lugs, and the nuts. Corrosion in this area will cause symptoms similar to a failing fuel pump...car stalls, will not idle good, generally runs poorly. You may have bumped/disturbed the wire while doing the tune-up, and temporarily fixed the problem.

Cleaned it last winter when changing my T-stat. Like I said, the COIL WIRE was arcing. Never even touched the t-stat area.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The aggravated symptoms in the rain indicates that it might be a water absorbtion issue with any corrosion around the ground. It does not have to rain on the part, just the higher humidity could be enough to cause it. It is a cheap fix if it works. If it does not change anything, you know it is not that issue, it did not cost anything, and is still time well spent to avoid a future issue.

See above. The coil wire was arcing. So there wasn't a water issue, well besides the coil wire arching lol.

sounds like the fuel pump.....again. did you replace that stupid little rubber hose when you were in there (I've had two split on me so far)

Sprocket wrote:

sounds like the fuel pump.....again. did you replace that stupid little rubber hose when you were in there (I've had two split on me so far)

Yes I did. The pump came with a new hose so replaced everything. Thank god the pump is warrantied.

Edit: Took this video of the TBI. It looks like what it did when the fuel pump went the first time. Guess I'll be dropping the tank. Again.

This sounds exactly like what I went through, when my pump died. I went straight to the dealer and ordered a new one. I didn't want to drop the tank again. I hate aftermarket parts. Dealer only or if all else fails only the top of the line parts for me.

1993 Roady-man wrote:

This sounds exactly like what I went through, when my pump died. I went straight to the dealer and ordered a new one. I didn't want to drop the tank again. I hate aftermarket parts. Dealer only or if all else fails only the top of the line parts for me.

I can't find a GM pump. The dealer quoted $350 for a new one and looking on line the only place that listed them was GM Parts Direct and they didn't have any in stock. So I went with Bosch as practically everything under my VW that doesnt say VW/Audi says Bosch and i've yet to have anything go bad so I trusted their quality.

Sounds like there charging you for the whole sending unit. Ask them just for the pump itself. Thats what I did.

1993 Roady-man wrote:

Sounds like there charging you for the whole sending unit. Ask them just for the pump itself. Thats what I did.

Thats what I did. Either that dealer didnt just sell the pump or he had no idea what he was talking about. But either way, this broken one is under warranty and I dont have the money to buy a new one right now.

FROM ROCK AUTO - AC Delco $55 for a 92 Estate Wagon

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Weird. That doesn't come up for a '93 Caprice. Ah well. This Bosch one is under warranty and I dont have an extra $50 right now. I'll just have to replace the Bosch and hope it doesnt crap out, if it does I'll hopefully have some extra $ by that point to buy a Delco one.

AC Delco pumps are OEM, and they are about $72 in the local parts store.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

AC Delco pumps are OEM, and they are about $72 in the local parts store.

Once again. THEY DON'T CARRY THEM LOCALLY. Nor can I afford to buy a new one right now.

Well you will be as good as me in tank dropping, lol. Trust me you'll be done alot quicker this time.
At least you have a warranty. Both the pumps I put in were salvaged from cars I parted. Sooooo they are GM (or so I THINK) but I have NO idea how many miles on either one (I'm on your budget).

Sprocket wrote:

Well you will be as good as me in tank dropping, lol. Trust me you'll be done alot quicker this time.

My plan of action for tomorrow is get up at 9, drop tank, go to breakfast, go to Advance and get new pump, go home install pump and reinstall tank. My goal is to be up and running by noon.

Sleeping late tomorrow?How goes the job hunting Justin?I would not want to be in your shoes
in this society!
Jim

Flasheroo wrote:

Sleeping late tomorrow?How goes the job hunting Justin?I would not want to be in your shoes
in this society!
Jim

Yep, 9 is sleeping in for me now lol. Mondays are my one day off per week. Job hunt is at a standstill until I come up with the $650 for my licenses, no one will hire me without them.

It's not the pump

Got it all back together, started the car drove fine til I got to an idle and it started to sputter. Never stalled but I had to feather it at every light. So tomorrow I'm going to order the adapter to check fuel pressure to confirm once and for all, but I'm going to have to look at what else it could be.

Check your ground at the thermostat...it is for the O2 sensor, and the computer.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Check your ground at the thermostat...it is for the O2 sensor, and the computer.

It's fine.

What kind of license?I thought male on male masseuse licenses were like 50 bucks,but
since I never wanted 1 not really sure!
Jim

Flasheroo wrote:

I thought male on male masseuse licenses were like 50 bucks,but
since I never wanted 1 not really sure!
Jim

so,. you are an unregistered,. unlicensed,. male on male masseur?

Sounds like somebody trolling for a little companionship!
Jim

Flasheroo wrote:

What kind of license?I thought male on male masseuse licenses were like 50 bucks,but
since I never wanted 1 not really sure!
Jim

Ouch!

My funeral directors license. $248 for the license and $400 for the test. And thats if I just want a MA license, a CT one is another $210.

Flasheroo wrote:

Sounds like somebody trolling for a little companionship!
Jim

Somethings never change!

Flasheroo wrote:

Sounds like somebody trolling for a little companionship!
Jim

yes it does seem that way about you,.

Take it somewhere else.

Think I may have found the source of my trouble. Badass'er made a suggestion to check the gaskets and filters on the TB. Well, while taking the throttle body apart I found the fuel pressure regulator was plugged almost solid with some black gunk. TB cleaner won't touch it. So once my TB rebuild kit gets here looks like I may be ready to roll.

GAH! This friggin car.

Bought the rebuild kit. Got it all back together. Dropped the TB back in, go to crank no fuel OR spark. Checked and adjusted fuel lines now the fuel pump sprays but still no spark. Now i'm freakin lost.

Retrace your work because it has to be something simple and calm down!'
Jim

Did that 3x. Everything is hooked up, bolted up, plugged in.

HOWEVER

When using a test light on the coil it doesn't have power. So bad coil? But how would that explain the bad fuel spray?

If your coil isn't getting power wouldn't that be a bad ignition module?

I went through the same BS on mine for almost 6 weeks....Went through my whole fuel delivery system stem to stern, it's completely rebuilt, but most of what I replaced wasn't broken (just eliminated variables). Start with the easy stuff, did you leave off a wire or pull a fues, etc.... You will prevail and then be all in love with your car again...no worries.

I think this is what you call a bad ground. Found this hiding under the other t-stat ground. looks like some dust was making it look like it wasn't broken.

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Hopefully if the rain stops today I can run out and put on a new ring terminal.

Hmm. I seem to recall someone telling you to check this exact part, then you told them "It's fine."

jayoldschool wrote:

Hmm. I seem to recall someone telling you to check this exact part, then you told them "It's fine."

I did, and I stand by what I said then... it looked fine at the time so either my eyes played tricks on me initially or I broke it while trying to fix the other crap that was broken.

Well, it wasn't the ground either way. Still no spark or fuel now. So now i'm thinking bad ICM or Coil?

just don't try unscrewing the t-stat bolts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Justin before you tear up anything else try jumping those 2 grounds to the negative side of
your battery and see what happens!
Jim

Ok. So we are still not running. The car HAS spark and fuel. Starts and idles, fuel spray "looks" ok. It's definitely better than when the fuel pump died over the winter. So now I'm still lost. Bad EGR maybe? No vacuum leaks. I did the soapy water thing on the hoses. Is it possible that the rubber hose between the pump and the sending unit split or is splitting? I checked it before I did the pump and I didn't see any cracks or splits.

HE'S ALIVE!

It was a bad coil. So, plopped a new one in this am and I am back on the road. I love my wagon again.

YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Getting a little sick of the whining!
Jim

Yaaay, wagon love.