Shammoo update

It's been awhile since I've posted any updates on Shammoo so...

Thought it was about time for one.

I've been working on gross programming with the Prominator chip set. It's been "seat of the pants" style as I'm finding general fault areas and addressing those concerns. Haven't actually learned to data log yet. I still need more interior wiring done before I get there.

I've had some severe flat spots around the 2000-2800 rpm range. The flat spots and bogging were from the spark map taking out too much advance on the high load side of the chart. It isn't knock related, just poor initial mapping on my part. I'd been adding little bits of advance over the past few weeks to that range, with some small positive effect. After speaking with the engine builder. I grossly change it and what a difference, the engine is truely coming alive now. For those aware of my NAISSO thread you'll understand that my missing left testicle has finally returned in the form of one ballsy engine.

Got a hiccup going which may be a header gasket not sealing well. I have a spare set of headers that will have the mating flange ground flat to see if that cures it. If not, might be a winter time head gasket repair coming up. Not a surprise given 11:1 compression. and plenty of early backfires from past firing and poor timing attempts over the years that could have blown it out.

Drop a comment here to when get the chance. always happy to read your responses.

Dave Buchholz (Lakeffect)

Thanks for the update. Love that instrument cluster, didn't get a good look at it at WF.

Speaking of the cluster, what is it out of?? Does not look familiar to me......

the answer is it's not out of anything else It's a custom six unit dash from Nordskog.


You can find it here:

http://www.nordskogperformance.net/product.php?productid=18582&cat=10&page=2

(edit 03/05/2010 looks like Nordskog went belly up... link takes you to a site but no digital unit there)


( Edit 12/01/2010: dash now sourced at http://www.intellitronix.net/intellitronix_004.htm) Appears to be same exact item.

You can also find more pictures of the install at my photobucket link listed below. It was relativly easy, provided you have a good wiring diagram of your 91-93 dash and a dremel tool.

Backfires won't take out a head gasket,. poor assembly,. stretchy head bolts,.excessive heat,.
depending on the type of gasket,. thickness,. quench etc,..
backfire is flame reversion in the intake causing the intake charge to explode,.late ignition timing , poor cam choice,.lean mixtures,.
How did you compute the compression ratio? 11:1 is fairly stiff for a gen1 motor unless it has a large overlap cam,.

jmho thats free of course,.
nick

cpmpression by guage, coil wire pulled, spun a couple of cycles to turns to max reading, came to 11:2.1

Cam is Comp Cams EFI series 230/236@.050 1.6 ratio rockers on AFR 195 heads

Original timing showed distributor to be off by about 45 degree, hence my thought of backfiring After initial successful firing there was some coolant coming from behind cyl #8. Haven't seen anything on the ground lately, but can't say I've made a concerted effort to take notice either.

I had pulled the #8 plug, about two weeks ago, found almost no gap (.015) from where I must have dropped it while handling it. Now regapped to .050, but haven't pulled it since then. I did change the exhaust gasket. That seemed to quiet the burp some, but it's still noticable. I am going to try pull that gasket again to check for areas of blow by to verify good/bad seal at the headers, to determine or eliminate causes.

Any other thoughts? They are most welcome.

lakeffect wrote:

cpmpression by guage, coil wire pulled, spun a couple of cycles to turns to max reading, came to 11:2.1

Cam is Comp Cams EFI series 230/236@.050 1.6 ratio rockers on AFR 195 heads

Original timing showed distributor to be off by about 45 degree, hence my thought of backfiring After initial successful firing there was some coolant coming from behind cyl #8. Haven't seen anything on the ground lately, but can't say I've made a concerted effort to take notice either.

I had pulled the #8 plug, about two weeks ago, found almost no gap (.015) from where I must have dropped it while handling it. Now regapped to .050, but haven't pulled it since then. I did change the exhaust gasket. That seemed to quiet the burp some, but it's still noticable. I am going to try pull that gasket again to check for areas of blow by to verify good/bad seal at the headers, to determine or eliminate causes.

Any other thoughts? They are most welcome.

you need to read up on compression ratio's vs static cranking pressure etc,.
compression ratio is determined by volume,. compression pressure is just that a measure of pressure,. different cams will produce different cranking pressure cylinder head combustion chamber size affects cranking pressure,.
if you can give the bore and stroke,. piston cc's, head gasket bore size, and thickness, and your combustion chamber volume,. i'll plug it all into the calculator and tell you your compression ratio,.
give me the deg of your cam closing the intake after bottom dead centre, and your rod length and i'll compute your dynamic compression ratio ,. which is different again,.

Nick

nick

I'll contact the builder to see if he still has the sheets on it and send a PM to you next week. You offer is very kind, and I appreciate it very much.

I remember basic stuff, like .030 over on a 4.125 bore, and 71cc AFR 195 heads, but they were also milled to insure flatness during the build, so that cut it back to a slightly smaller chamber. I was shooting for 10.2 to 10.5:1 and was told we ended up slightly over 11:1 due to availability of limited number of choices for piston valve relief pockets volumes.


Spoke to the local muffler shop (friends) and was told "it's definately the exhaust gasket" as he saw the flame between the head and header. I got some "MR Gasket" aluminum crushable gaskets today. Hopefully will get them on over the weekend to see if it makes a difference. I was told the current Fel-Pro were not the best choice. Too thin to seal irregularities.
i took their advice.

Glad it is just an exhaust leak....can't wait to see it again

Chris

Sunday 09/13/09

The exhaust gasket around Cylinder #8 was burned out big time. after two weeks use. It obviously wasn't sealing well, which lends hope to getting the flanges on the spare headers ground flat for a better seal.

Had it up on the expressway to check the noise and it seemed much better. Slapped the racket shifter into low and cranked it. Hit 80mph way before the end of the merge ramp It's . getting more impressive as time spend on programmimg shows results.

As I posted on the SS forum... I used copper gaskets years ago on my SS when I installed the headers. No problems since. I would highly recommend them...

lakeffect wrote:

I'll contact the builder to see if he still has the sheets on it and send a PM to you next week. You offer is very kind, and I appreciate it very much.

I remember basic stuff, like .030 over on a 4.125 bore, and 71cc AFR 195 heads, but they were also milled to insure flatness during the build, .

a trick that i,ve used for years is to use high temp silcone sealer,. lay a bead on the cyl head side of the gasket,. let it almost dry,. then install ,.

lookin at the old gen1 400's with a .030 piston with 7cc reliefs,.and a regular .040 gasket, and guessing your heads are maybe down to 69cc or so,. you,d be at 10.8+,. if you used the short rods thats fairly stiff,. cometic makes some quality multi layer steel gaskets that can gotten in thicker sizes you could add .010 and drop it bacl 1/2 a point,. too much heat in one of those old siamese bore motors is not easy to live with,.and you're hauling a heavy car with it,..407 cubes will have some torque tho, they work well with a long rod combo, i,ve did three of them some years ago 1 for an old monte, 1 went in a pickup,. 1 went in a roundy roundy car,.
inmho, they are a little outdated now,. money is much better spent these days with a gen 3 motor,.

nick

to Phantom 309, I may have forgotten to mentioned 5.7' rod, longer than stock to decrease thrust angles on the sidewalls. As I recall it also tends to increase dwell at TDC.

I've been in contact With Stillwater Designs, maker of the Kicker line of audio products. They were kind enough to send me several archived photos of Shammoo's early years with them, including the following publicity shot for Shammoo's post cards.






Here's a family portrait of the birth of Brother and Sisters. That's Shammoo in front. One of the triplets, Shammoo's sister in the background with her mouth open. You can barely make out the grill of the third Caprice outside the garage door. Must have been feeding time.

That is awesome that you could get those pictures!! So, do you know where the other 2 "siblings" are now?

I'd seen one of them up for sale on Ebay a few years ago. I always keep an eye out for them.
I'd be appreciative of anyone who could pass along info about the other two vehicles if they've been spotted, and where.

Here's another photo That Kicker was kind enough to pass along to me. This is from a trade show in 1994. For the record, the 4-18" subs are long gone, as is the hearing of anyone who was near it.

I opened up an email today from Kicker (Stillwater Designs) that said they were sending a "care package" to me and Shammoo, and that if I have heart medication to keep it handy, along with 911 on speed dial.

I was happy with the fact they were kind enough to share some of their memories with me. Two of the three guys that have been chatting via email actually "gave birth" to Shammoo back in 1993.

brokecello wrote:

That is awesome that you could get those pictures!! So, do you know where the other 2 "siblings" are now?

I think I may have found one somewhere around Wooster Ohio just this past week on a My SPACE video. I started a new thread on that topic. Sent him an email to his myspace account, but no response yet. I was wondering if he heard of Wagonfest, and maybe we could meet together there.

One thing I learned from the guys at Kicker is that Shammoo has Bell 2" drop spindles on the front end, that I didn't even know were there. That would explain the scraping that I get at speed bumps and slanted driveway approaches.

The guys at Kicker said they sent out the "Care Package" to me on Friday and that it's enroute Also reminded me to keep the nitro-gylcerine pills for my heart handy.


Honestly guys, I was happy and content with the fact that they gave up their time from busy days, to pass along memories and pics that they were kind enough to share. Wasn't hoping for more than some information. I have no clue as to what they are up to.

Oooh. Free stuff FTW! How long until you get the stuff?

Does Shammoo still have the system in it, or no?

Over the course of it's demo days, Shammoo had two different audio arrangements in it. The original had four round 18's in it. The second system replaced that with three square Solo-Baric 15's. each had boatload of current (at that time) top end Kicker amps.

The second system was also removed apparently just before I got it. So now, it's Plain Jane speakers in each door and 6x9's in the tailgate. What is there now is all Kicker parts, at least. I intend to keep it true to it's heritage. It will only have Kicker product in it. There are empty foot well floor pods waiting to be filled with 6.5" and tweets and because there is no third seat, plenty of room for under floor amps where the seat used to be, and subs in the side wells.

Three people at Kicker know what's in the box. Sometime later this week, I'd anticipate that I"ll know as well. I was happy with pictures. Hey, I've already received more than I could have hoped for, and I mean that sincerely.

I have a feeling this is going to be epic.

If it's audio stuff, would you install it or sell it? I personally would LOVE to do a tasteful sound system in the Caprice next year.

I have three eggs left in the refrigerator. I'm not counting my chickens before they are hatched.

In answer to your question, out of respect for the kindness of those who sent anything, I would not resell. Even if it's a T-shirt that's the wrong size, it would seem disrespectful to them. I will honor their kindness, to whatever degree they offer, with great appreciation.

True, true. I get excited about stuff like this. Even if you're hundreds of miles away. Still awesome!

lakeffect wrote:

The guys at Kicker said they sent out the "Care Package" to me on Friday and that I should keep the nitro-gylcerine pills for my heart handy.


honestly, I was happy and content with their time, memories and pics that they were kind enough to share. I have no clue as to what they are up to.

Sweet! It's cool that they are being so helpful with the history of the car for you.

Thanks, I asked them in include a message to my wife in whatever was coming as follows:


"Dear Janet, we swear your husband didn't buy any of this stuff!"

She calls Shammoo the Freaking Money Pit, except she using a different word than freaking.

Bah. It's the epic wagon that every house needs!

I try to keep the kerosene, gasoline, flares and matches away from her at all times.

Can't wait to see what you got!! I agree...sounds epic.

For all of you wagoneers and wagonettes following this thread, here's what the package from Kicker contained





Maestro... The Drum Roll Please




BOOMBUDDABOOMBUDDABOOMBUDDABOOM









I'd like to publicly thank The boys at Stillwater Designs - Kicker: Dan, Ron and Charlie, not only for the gift of this montage, but more importantly, their time, their kindness and the willingness to share some memories of the time Shammoo was in their construction and care.

SWEET!!! Congrats man! That is awesome!

That is SWEET.

I had someone from another forum who didn't believe I even had a demo car from Kicker. I doubt this will end his disbelief, but the people at Kicker think I own one, and recognize their "child".

The VIN number on their original registration matches my VIN, so I don't know what else it would take to convince a person of normal intelligence. The seats are a dead giveaway, as they are obviously not stock and only three sets of them were ever made. They came from Grippy upholstery in Tennessee and all Three sets went to the Kicker wagon triplets. You can see them in the poster from Stillwater/Kicker. If you view the "Shammoo's brother" thread, the same seats are in that car as well.

Coincidence? Don't think so.


front seats






rear seats

Very cool! It's great to have all that history on your car. I love that kind of stuff.

I can't say that any of this makes the vehicle more valuable from a collector's standpoint. It just makes it more treasured by me.

The "TPI swap that ate my wallet and left testicle" parts 1, 2 & 3 holds the record for number of pages and hits, over at the NAISSO site. Over 40 pages and 40,000 hits. Since this is my new home maybe they should add more memory to their system (or ban me for life) while they still can.

that's way cool that the guys at Kicket took the time to make that for you. Some people still care and it's nice to see.

You have a very unique ride with verifiable history with it, and it's obvious that the guys at Kicker respect that you have kept the car and improved on it.

My sincere thanks to all who've responded, for your warmth, interest and sharing of small joys.

I,m not sharing my small joys with anybody,..

nick

I said my small joys, not your small jewels!

update 03/21/10

Shammoo is out of hibernation for 2010. After the battery got charged up, it turned over and fired up right away. That alone was encouraging after three years of not running.

Immediately thereafter, I changed the throttle body from the stock 48mm dual butterfly to the 58mm version. Throttle was sticking closed, until I tweaked the idle set screw a bit. More programming will ensue shortly.

Tomorrow morning it goes over to the Muffler shop to take apart the passenger side system. You may recall it had a bad gasket sealing problem at the header. I got a second set of headers and had the flanges ground flat. I'm using the crush-able aluminum gaskets, and adding a flexible braided coupling below the header. That should keep the system from pulling and prying loose every time the system tries to twist when I stomp on the gas pedal, or it takes a whack from bottoming out on driveways etc.

Although I'll hang the new headers, part of the old system needed to be cut off, hence the trip to the shop. Additionally , I noticed oil all over the bottom of the engine. After putting it up on the lift, it appears to be blowing out past the seals of the oil pressure sensor switch. While I have the old headers off, I'll swap out to a new sensor.

It sounds incredible with just bare headers... WHAT A FREAKING MONSTER!

Back from the shop...
removed the old headers.... prior gaskets totally burnt out between the center exhausts 3&5 and 4&6, both sides.

Showing oil all over the driver side oil pan from where it was being blown past the seals in the sensor. Lost a bolt from the cover over the mechanical pump outlet in the block as well. Lost a ground connection there as well.

Got an ECM code 43 last Fall, Knock Sensor/ Electonic spark control still shows up after clearing codes. Might have some fried wires since it is directly below cul's4&6 where the hot gases were spewing out. Will check out and repair before new pipes go on.


Collecting parts for fan swap over. was thinking of wiring in a test harness first before actually disconnecting the mechanical fan, see cooling section of forum

Unrelated, garbage disposal under kitchen sink leaking all over hell as well. Priority there.

Ok update 03/31/10

New oil pressure sensor, no more oil all over block. New exhaust system is on. Flexible couplings where the catalytics used to be. All of about 2 feet worth of exhaust system before it hits the side pipes.

Ran like crap to the shop. Forgot to re-attach one spark plug wire. Odd how it likes to run on eight cylinders better than seven.

Throttle is a bit sticky, hard to just crack it open without stomping on it. to brealk it loose. Will lube and recheck butterflies. Doesn't like dropping back to idle unless the kick the pedal.

AWESOME POWER even without complete/proper tuning on it.

update 04/01/10 No foolin!


Now that the exhaust system is on, I can start spending some time tuning the ECM program in Shammoo. The Corvette ECM has an aftermarket chip in it called a PROMinator that stores eight tuning files. You select them with a rotary dial. Essentially you advance one notch on the dial each time you upload a Bin file to the chip, keeping the previous seven.

Not being much of a computer geek, I've been having some difficulty matching up sections of the tuning program TunerPRO RT, but looks like that got resolved today with much help from, and many thanks to the guys over at www.thirdgen.com

I've been doing some seat of the pants tuning using my official "Bigass Butt-o-meter" and ears as a very rough guide. Oddly, this was the one time hemorrhoids proved helpful. (Ok second time, but that situation in prison doesn't count). Now I can begin to actually see a data log and look at events. Neat part of the TunerPRO RT program is that you are able to see any six variables you want on it's laptop dashboard in Real Time (hence the "RT")

Wicked cool stuff. I'll have it at Wagonfest.

Cool you're getting it dialed in this early in the season.

update 04 /19/10 Had to get Shammoo towed home twice this wek. The engine would start normally & drive, but roughly. Afterward it would not restart, cranks ok but no fire in the hole. No spark.

I had a few spare ignition modules (HEI remote coil) I took out the one from Shammoo as well, and had all three tested at Asdvance Auto. All three checked out fine. I put a different one in, to be safe, and no start at all this time. Cranks , but no spark.


On a side note,

I'm also in the middle of plumbing repairs to the house. Had an old toilet from the fifties that I couldn't get parts for. So I went to home depot and bought a "Glacier Bay" replacing the old one with one of the new designs, 1.28 gallons per flush. It took four test flushes to clear a few pieces of toilet paper. So that makes it 5.12 gallons per flush, I didn't see it's efficiency, and returned it, for an "American Standard" with 1.6 GPF.

. Another example of government intrusion into our lives that has negative consequences. In an effort to reduce water usage, it now takes more water than it did before with the 1.6 gpf designs.

So when a toilet can't do the one thing it has to do, what good is it.
My friends of the forum, what good is a toilet when it isn't good for shit.

05/25/10 update

Finally getting back To Shammoo's ignition issues after getting several projects done around the house in preparation for my only daughter's wedding this past weekend.

So as a recap, I've been unable to get any spark out of the ignition system. All symptoms pointed to an Ignition module failure, even though I've had three units tested "on the bench" at Advance Auto as being OK. I learned how to test them in the car and came to the conclusion that it must be the magnetic pickup coil at the top of the distributor shaft.

When a known working trigger pulse from the tester at Advance Auto would make all and any of the three tested work, I figured I'm not getting a triggering pulse from the magnetic coil within he real distributor.. I took apart the distributor and got past the module to the trigger and removed it. When testing it for resistance or continuity, I was getting an open circuit on the multimeter. When I jiggled the wires, Sometimes I'd get a spurious reading, sometimes not. So I believe I found the culprit.


By the way, the Accel email tech line was useless, as they kept telling me "It's the digital ignition box" even when I kept telling them the frigging box isn't even hooked up! What morons!

I rebuilt the dizzy back up with a new trigger coil, which by the way, had to be modified because the "proper" Accel part connectors didn't match from old to new. I put the spark tester on the output of the the ignition coil and ground, same place I've done all the other testing. I immediately got existence of a nice blazing spark, across the tester instantly when bump starting.

Since it's late at night, I don't want the whole neighborhood calling the local police to suggest they might want to visit and hear for themselves how wonderful 450 horsepower at 11:00pm sounds. I'll wait till tomorrow to prove all went well and fire that sucker up!


Here's a little Wagonfest 09 reminder photo.

What's that thing sound like? Got any vids of it?