Key won't turn - can't remove from cylinder.

Okay so here's the deal. Took my car with me to school, made the trip just fine. Pulled the trailer with no issues at all. I unloaded it, and took it back to U-haul. When I left U-haul I noticed that it took a bit more effort than normal to put the car from park to Drive.

So then I went to the grocery store, and all was fine. From the store, I went back to my apartment, and after backing it into the spot, I couldn't turn the key at all. I managed to kind of force it just enough so that it went to the "on" position to have the engine off, and disconnected the battery, leaving the inoperable key in the ignition.

What could this be? I'm thinking my lock cylinder needs to be replaced... but what about the funny shifting thing? Tips appreciated. I'm a little lost without my car up here in Jacksonville. Can't ride the bike everywhere.

Stingroo wrote:

When I left U-haul I noticed that it took a bit more effort than normal to put the car from park to Drive.

Stingroo wrote:

From the store, I went back to my apartment, and after backing it into the spot, I couldn't turn the key at all. I managed to kind of force it just enough so that it went to the "on" position to have the engine off, and disconnected the battery, leaving the inoperable key in the ignition.

Have you tried turning the steering wheel--hard if need be--while attempting to turn the key? Is the steering wheel locked by chance?

Is the car parked on an incline of any sort? Torque lock on the parking pawl is all I can think of for a shift handle that won't move, unless the linkage has become sloppy or very loose.

Steering wheel is turnable, it won't lock. I had to muscle the car into a parking spot this morning because I parked rather crookedly last night to bring things upstairs into my apartment.

It was definitely on an incline when it was difficult to get into gear. That's somewhat reassuring.

Stingroo wrote:

Steering wheel is turnable, it won't lock. I had to muscle the car into a parking spot this morning because I parked rather crookedly last night to bring things upstairs into my apartment.

I didn't catch that you'd left the key in the on position at first. Is the key you're using an original or a copy? What kind of shape is it in? Do you have another key to try?

Does playing with the key (pulling it slightly outwards as though you were going to remove it or pushing it inwards in particular) make the switch any easier to turn?

Stingroo wrote:

It was definitely on an incline when it was difficult to get into gear. That's somewhat reassuring.

If this happens again, get a helper to the push against the car on the end that's facing downwards. See if that makes it easier to shift the car back into gear. The torque lock problem can be severe enough in some cases that you might need another vehicle to push gently on yours.

Why didn't it happen all summer when you were home? Always works out that way. Atleast you made it back to school and your apartment. I'm sure you your buddies can help you out. Now to find a competent mechanic / garage to fix the problem. It sounds like your key cylinder, but I'm no expert and admit it.

Sunday was also the day to bring back the youngest daughter to UNH, for her last semester. Saturday, my knee was sore (old age, there is advantage to being 21 not 63). Sunday, loading up, took one step down the back steps, left knee let go (think the noise when you break a chicken leg off of the body). I was lucky I had my hand on the railing. Knee swollen, can't walk on it and waiting for the orthopedic doctor to call.

Tom

Bill - I don't have another key to try, and I can't get my key out. It won't move at all unfortunately, no matter how I wiggle the wheel or cylinder or anything else.

The key before this, though, was in good shape. No damage or abnormal marks of any kind that I could see.

Anybody ever tried to disassemble the column to do this? I mean, I can TRY it... but I can't afford a shop. Hopefully a mobile guy can help or something.

Stingroo wrote:

Bill - I don't have another key to try, and I can't get my key out.

Anybody ever tried to disassemble the column to do this? I mean, I can TRY it... but I can't afford a shop. Hopefully a mobile guy can help or something.

I was hoping that you might say it was a copy, possibly made with a machine that clones an existing key. They're not always terribly precise when cut that way.

I have the factory service manual for my 1993 wagon. Not sure if it would help since yours is a 1992, though how many changes could GM have made? (He who asks that is soon sorry, so don't ask it.) I can take a look at it later to see what may be involved. That may be much later tonight, as I have other work that I must do.

Talk to Sprocket...Im sure he has mastered my old OCC key trick. Sounds like you have the same thing.

To change the ignition cylinder you need a steering wheel puller and a lock plate removal tool. Both of which should be rentable from Autozone.

I would also take a look at the ignition switch itself. Mounted on the steering column.

I had this happed to one of the trucks at work (GM Van from late 90s). Same deal key was in, can't shift, can't turn key. Car no go. It needed a new key cylinder from what the guy at our fleet garage told me....

I replaced the ignition switch in my Jeep Cherokee and it took about an hour or so. Look at the FSM to find out how to get it out. I have the 92 manual if you don't.

The issue Chris refers too is the opposite of what you are having. The key sticks and won't turn off of lock but once the column is unlocked I can pull the key all the way out. It still drives me crazy enough to where I hardly lock the column anymore.

Yeah, this is the opposite. My column won't lock at all, and I can move the gear shift freely with no problem now, just can't get the key out of it.

Ugh. One thing after another, I swear. 2012 has not been kind to me.

oh so you can drive it then. just pull the coil wire everytime you stop, lol.

Easier to just unplug the fuel pump harness. No need to open the hood.

Nope, lol because the key turned enough where now it won't re-start.

lol

I guess I'll swing by Vatozone tomorrow and look into renting the tool to take the plate off and see what's what....

Just throw another column in it...

Well, I would but see, it's rather difficult to get to the junkyard without a running vehicle.

I'm lost on steering column issues. If I couldn't work it loose with wd40, I'd probably have it towed to a shop...

I wish I could afford that. lol


I guess I'm about to learn steering column issues.

Need to find the box I packed my FSM in.... and a non rainy day to ride my bike to the parts store, I guess.

silverfox103 wrote:

Sunday was also the day to bring back the youngest daughter to UNH, for her last semester. Saturday, my knee was sore (old age, there is advantage to being 21 not 63). Sunday, loading up, took one step down the back steps, left knee let go (think the noise when you break a chicken leg off of the body). I was lucky I had my hand on the railing. Knee swollen, can't walk on it and waiting for the orthopedic doctor to call.

Tom

It sounds very much like what I am going through. For me it started in march when I got out of bed to go to the bathroom and got about three steps and down I went no warning my knee just went out. Since then I have fallen another five times only once in public which was quite embarrassing (I was at Speedway carrying 4 2-liter bottles of diet Dew and fell right into one of the candy displays). Since my health care is through the VA it took a month to get an x-ray (which showed a decent knee for my age and previous occupation) then another two to see my DR. then another for to get an MRI (mid July) and I finally got to see the Ortho DR. this afternoon. It was a 15 min visit in which he has me setup for surgery but he didn't know how long that could take, just that I will be called for a date.

I hope things go quicker for you than me or that it is something minor. The MRI did show that for me it was a meniscus tear on the inside of the knee. He also said my knee would never be normal not because of the tear but the arthritis that the MRI showed.

Also my daughter is in her last at U of Iowa but has just decided to go for her masters now.

It may be the actuating mechanism for the rod to the switch. There is a mechanism in the left side of the column that can break, or get jammed. I do not think it is your lock cylinder, or it would not turn at all. You will probably not be able to get the parts easily. If you can get to a JY, get a column and swap it out. I believe that repairing the column to that extent is more effort than it is worth. Replacing the column is a reasonably simple matter, and can be done in a couple of hours. You can swap your cylinder to keep your original key.

Ancient_1 wrote:

Since my health care is through the VA it took a month to get an x-ray (which showed a decent knee for my age and previous occupation) then another two to see my DR. then another for to get an MRI.

i could go places with this comment...but i wont because this is a car forum. suffice to say...some people want to put the Gov in charge of everyones healthcare. ...ok im done.

Ugh. I hope it isn't inside the column. Then I'm pretty much screwed.

a1awind wrote:

Ancient_1 wrote:

Since my health care is through the VA it took a month to get an x-ray (which showed a decent knee for my age and previous occupation) then another two to see my DR. then another for to get an MRI.

i could go places with this comment...but i wont because this is a car forum. suffice to say...some people want to put the Gov in charge of everyones healthcare. ...ok im done.

Adam

The "ancient_1, is military veteran who gave in service to his country. I'm guessing the Viet Nam War. To provide him VA health insurance, is a very, very small token of appreciation for his service. You can see by his posting, we're not talking a Cadillac of a plan.

Tom

silverfox103 wrote:

a1awind wrote:

Ancient_1 wrote:

Since my health care is through the VA it took a month to get an x-ray (which showed a decent knee for my age and previous occupation) then another two to see my DR. then another for to get an MRI.

i could go places with this comment...but i wont because this is a car forum. suffice to say...some people want to put the Gov in charge of everyones healthcare. ...ok im done.

Adam

The "ancient_1, is military veteran who gave in service to his country. I'm guessing the Viet Nam War. To provide him VA health insurance, is a very, very small token of appreciation for his service. You can see by his posting, we're not talking a Cadillac of a plan.

Tom

I think the comment was more in term of pointing out what a crappy job the Veterans administaration does with healthcare and that they really should do better...

Anyways,
as far as the key issue goes - Same happened on my '91 - key would not come out of the lock - and it would not turn after the first 1 or 2 times where it still did work.

Unfortunately I needed a new lock cylinder at that point. Thankfully they are not all that expensive.

You need to do more diagnosis before you just start throwing parts at it, especially when you're talking a steering column. That is the lazy way in and it will be a harder way out. I've done this too many times, gone into a car SURE it was part A when it turned out it was part B that cost a tenth as much and was 5 minutes to replace. Always always always diagnose.

Inspect the park rod assembly like Fred said. Something is not allowing that cylinder to turn. Check the park shift interlock relay and make sure the cable is hooked up properly. sometimes people disable and remove it, and the cable just dangles there. Find it, experiment with it, and see if you can get that moving and if it affects the key. Swapping a column won't fix this problem.

I don't have park-brake interlock. I should, because my car is a '92, but it doesn't work.


I can't find my FSM, does anybody have any info, or would they be so kind as to scan the pages, on looking into this?

Stingroo wrote:

I don't have park-brake interlock. I should, because my car is a '92, but it doesn't work.


I can't find my FSM, does anybody have any info, or would they be so kind as to scan the pages, on looking into this?

Assuming a '93 FSM is "close enough", let me see what I can do unless someone steps forward with a '92 FSM. It'll be later today for sure...any guidance on what you might find to be of interest?

While I have no idea how the circuit for this works, the park/shift interlock in my truckling sometimes fails safe. I can actually hear the solenoid toggle, as sometimes the circuit will "change its mind" and go back to the normal "press brake, shift into gear" mode of operation.

I can send you my 92 Caprice book by media mail, if you return it when done.

Fred - I'll look for mine this week, if I don't find it by Friday, I'll let you know.

Bill - I would assume that the column electrical stuff wouldn't have changed... but then again, GM is weird sometimes.

If I send it Friday, you will not get it until Tuesday or Wednesday, because of the holiday weekend. If I send it Thursday, you would probably have it by Saturday.

Stingroo wrote:

I don't have park-brake interlock. I should, because my car is a '92, but it doesn't work.

Well then turn the computer off, go out to your car , stick your head under the dash and figure that out first. It's not rocket science. And you ARE in college for a reason, right?

Do this: Say to yourself "I am hereby budgeting one hour of my time to figure out why my park-brake interlock doesn't work." Start the clock, and in an hour, you'll have it figured out. Guarranteed.

I love diagnosing people's problems over the internet because when I'm done, I feel like I helped fix their car, and I don't have to wash my hands or change my clothes afterwards. But the reality is that nothing gets fixed until someone actually goes out and tinkers.

There is a 92 Caprice wagon at the Tampa LKQ yard with a blue interior. If they have a 1/2 price sale this weekend, it could be a good deal. Greyhound shipping would be about $45. The regular price of the column is $39 with tax and core.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

Stingroo wrote:

I don't have park-brake interlock. I should, because my car is a '92, but it doesn't work.

Well then turn the computer off, go out to your car , stick your head under the dash and figure that out first. It's not rocket science. And you ARE in college for a reason, right?

Do this: Say to yourself "I am hereby budgeting one hour of my time to figure out why my park-brake interlock doesn't work." Start the clock, and in an hour, you'll have it figured out. Guarranteed.

I love diagnosing people's problems over the internet because when I'm done, I feel like I helped fix their car, and I don't have to wash my hands or change my clothes afterwards. But the reality is that nothing gets fixed until someone actually goes out and tinkers.

I will do this this afternoon.

silverfox103 wrote:

a1awind wrote:

Ancient_1 wrote:

Since my health care is through the VA it took a month to get an x-ray (which showed a decent knee for my age and previous occupation) then another two to see my DR. then another for to get an MRI.

i could go places with this comment...but i wont because this is a car forum. suffice to say...some people want to put the Gov in charge of everyones healthcare. ...ok im done.

Adam

The "ancient_1, is military veteran who gave in service to his country. I'm guessing the Viet Nam War. To provide him VA health insurance, is a very, very small token of appreciation for his service. You can see by his posting, we're not talking a Cadillac of a plan.

Tom

tom. as s1 pointed out, thats what i was getting at. my point was if the gov. can't take care of our vets..(.the ones who deserve the best care)..how crappy will it be for the rest of us?


ray....can you take the wheel off?

I'm going with my roommate to go rent a puller tomorrow. Then, yeah.

I took a vid of my 96 column in action, maybe it can help you narrow it downn to see what moves when. I doubt much changed between the years. My Lesabre T column has never locked since I got it and gets stuck every now and then. I replaced the lock cylinder and that didn't help, its probably somewhere in the switch the rod attaches to or the solenoid, that's only a guess though.

Video:


Pics:

I've dealt with stuck keys in GM columns several times and 100 percent of the time it's been a broken lock cylinder.

First of all, it's not a huge job. DEFINITELY easier than swapping out the entire column.

You just depower and remove the airbag from the wheel. Make SURE you depower the system first and do not hook the battery cables back up until the airbag is reconnected and bolted back in.

Once the airbag is off, pull the keeper off the steering shaft and break the nut loose with a socket, which will be rather fun since the wheel won't lock.

Remove the nut and use the puller on the wheel. Set aside.

Underneath there's a clockspring assembly for the airbag. Find direction on how to unhook and remove it, then do so.

Under THAT there should be a lock plate. Use the lockplate tool on it, remove the retainer clip and remove the plate. There's usually a spring and a contact for the horn underneath, may not be a contact there.

You then have to remove the turn signal lever by rotating and pulling, then the three or four bolts that hold the multifunction switch in. Unscrew the Hazard flasher button and remove.Pull the multifunction switch up and away and let it hang.

Look on the right side of the interior of the column. You should see a small torx bolt head facing you roughly behind the area of the lock cylinder. Remove that and the cylinder slides right out.

Reverse the order and put it back together once you ascertain the key now operates as it should.

PS: Be glad you don't have to tighten the steering column bolts up, which requires disassembling the rest of the steering column assembly(done that one several times too)

Stingroo wrote:

I'm going with my roommate to go rent a puller tomorrow. Then, yeah.

I finally got some quality (??) time alone with the scanner at work and my 1993 Caprice service manual. Sections 3F and 3F5A seemed the most relevant to me, so that's what I scanned.

Section 3F5
Section 3F5A

Each one is about 11 MB in size, scanned at 300 dpi for good results if you wish to print them out. I was going around and around with the scanner as it was not fully cooperative at the time, so the scans aren't perfect. I do believe you will find them to be quite readable anyway.

TylerW wrote:

I've dealt with stuck keys in GM columns several times and 100 percent of the time it's been a broken lock cylinder.

First of all, it's not a huge job. DEFINITELY easier than swapping out the entire column.

You just depower and remove the airbag from the wheel. Make SURE you depower the system first and do not hook the battery cables back up until the airbag is reconnected and bolted back in.

Once the airbag is off, pull the keeper off the steering shaft and break the nut loose with a socket, which will be rather fun since the wheel won't lock.

Remove the nut and use the puller on the wheel. Set aside.

Underneath there's a clockspring assembly for the airbag. Find direction on how to unhook and remove it, then do so.

Under THAT there should be a lock plate. Use the lockplate tool on it, remove the retainer clip and remove the plate. There's usually a spring and a contact for the horn underneath, may not be a contact there.

You then have to remove the turn signal lever by rotating and pulling, then the three or four bolts that hold the multifunction switch in. Unscrew the Hazard flasher button and remove.Pull the multifunction switch up and away and let it hang.

Look on the right side of the interior of the column. You should see a small torx bolt head facing you roughly behind the area of the lock cylinder. Remove that and the cylinder slides right out.

Reverse the order and put it back together once you ascertain the key now operates as it should.

PS: Be glad you don't have to tighten the steering column bolts up, which requires disassembling the rest of the steering column assembly(done that one several times too)

This makes it seem simple enough. Thank you.

Rented the wheel puller, but AZ didn't have the damn lock plate tool, and Advance was closed last night. Going to see if a friend of mine can give me a ride up there after class. Yay!

Bill - Thank you! Still can't find that FSM...

You can get the lock plate off with out the puller. There is a spring behind the lock plate. You have to press the lock plate away from you, until you can see the clip ring, then put an ice pick or similar too under the end, and pry it out. Work your way around it until it is out of the groove. Be careful that you do not beat it up too much, you need it to hold the lock plate when you reassemble. It may be a 2 man job without the tool.

Yeah, that doesn't sound fun. The second man (my roommate) who is available is automobile phobic.


P.S. Found my FSM! Thank goodness.

You pick your friends well.

Indeed. lololol

Stingroo wrote:

Bill - Thank you! Still can't find that FSM...

I'll take the links down here in a bit unless you have some specific reason to want them.

Stingroo wrote:

Yeah, that doesn't sound fun. The second man (my roommate) who is available is automobile phobic.

Can he follow direction or just hold things, keep track of tools, that sort of thing? Then tell him he can't possibly make it any worse. Unless he makes it worse.

Stingroo wrote:

P.S. Found my FSM! Thank goodness.

Was it in the last place you were looking?



(been looking for something to do with that "afro" icon for a bit now!)

Good luck in fixing your wagon. Hopefully it will be "easy enough". I can't imagine being "wagon deprived". Please do keep us "posted" (ha-ha) as to how it goes. I've got to hot-wire the climate controls on mine to get at least the fan and A/C compressor running since I'm going to drive it to where there is a lift available and there is rain in the forecast.

Tyler - winner winner chicken dinner.

Lock cylinder replaced. All operates as it should.

I am pleased.

Hooray!

awesome now get back to reading your assignments.....

Good job Ray, with Tyler's help sounds like it was a smooth fix.

Tom

Wasn't that bad at all, really. Sounds alot more complicated than it is.

I can use this now and replace the turn signal cancel in dad's Buick. It's really annoying that it doesn't self cancel when you turn left.


Back to school work!