Starter no response

I have a 91 Olds CC with a L03. I am at a loss to figure out my start problem. The car chugged to a stop, and the starter would only turn the engine slowly. I pushed it to a parking lot, and the starter solenoid will not engage. On a couple of prior occasions it started and immediately shut off, restarted and it was OK.

I had the battery checked...good battery.

Tried to start in both park and neutral...no starter.

Replaced the ignition switch...no change.

Checked for voltage at the red wires to ignition switch...Voltage correct.

Loosened and retightened engine ground, and battery terminals.

Fuse 7 is melted on the bottom side.

Pulled the starter and had checked...good starter.

Reinstalled the starter but have not tested it yet.

Any ideas?

I am also concerned about the stumble to idle, but this may be an issue to deal with after I get it started again.

Also posted on issf

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The car chugged to a stop, and the starter would only turn the engine slowly.
Any ideas?

You might actually not have a starter issue. From what you just described, it sound like the torq converter locking sylenoid did not unlock the torq converter. that would explain both the chugging to a stop and why the stater has a difficult time turning the engine over cause the torq converter is still locked up and trying to turn as you try to start the wagon.

buickestate wrote:

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The car chugged to a stop, and the starter would only turn the engine slowly.
Any ideas?

You might actually not have a starter issue. From what you just described, it sound like the torq converter locking sylenoid did not unlock the torq converter. that would explain both the chugging to a stop and why the stater has a difficult time turning the engine over cause the torq converter is still locked up and trying to turn as you try to start the wagon.

But trying to start in Neutral should negate that, shouldn't it?

was does fuse #7 control?

Nick

Krzdimond wrote:

buickestate wrote:

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The car chugged to a stop, and the starter would only turn the engine slowly.
Any ideas?

You might actually not have a starter issue. From what you just described, it sound like the torq converter locking sylenoid did not unlock the torq converter. that would explain both the chugging to a stop and why the stater has a difficult time turning the engine over cause the torq converter is still locked up and trying to turn as you try to start the wagon.

But trying to start in Neutral should negate that, shouldn't it?

in theory yes but that's not always the case. Been through it with the ratmaster years ago when it still had a roof, it's simple to test just unplug the the wire from the selonoid on the side of the tranny, the tranny will work normally but your fuel economy will suffer on the highway cause the torq converter will not lock up.

Its my understanding that the lockup circuit on the 700R4 gets its oil from the second gear circuit meaning that even if the solinoid is locked up, you won't get apply until second gear. On occassion when I forget to unlock mine (switch on the dash) that is exactly how it works. Unless the torque converter is mechanically locked up, as in catastrophic failure, there should be no way it is still locked up when the engine isn't running.

Only way to tell would be to drop the inspection cover and unbolt the torque, push it back out of the way and then try another start. Should only take a 1/2 hour to be sure.

Bill

I put it in neutral and it rolls easily. (we had to push it off of the road) The starter does not even have a solenoid click, and it tested good at the local Autozone.

The symptoms actually happened in this sequence...Started first thing in the morning, and the engine quit immediately...restarted and ran fine...drove for a few miles and stopped at a light...engine stumbled and died as I slowed down...put in park and slow grind 2-3X and started...went to the gas station shut off and filled up...engine started fine...stopped at another light and the engine chugged and stalled in the same manner...put in park and starter grind with no start...2nd time turned ignition switch and no starter...put in neutral and no starter...pushed to parking lot...starter would no longer engage (no soleniod click) in park or neutral. The trouble shooting begins.

I am wondering what fuse 7 goes to...it says aftermarket lighting in the manual, Haynes says electronic A/C power module. It could be another fuse below it got hot and melted the block...I am going to pull the dash and look inside for melted stuff at the fuse block. #2 fuse is directly below the #7, and it controls the oil pressure/fuel pressure switch. The pump runs when the key is turned on, so the pump is good.

Fred:

Before you dig into the dasboard, check a couple things on the starter. The starter may run fine on the bench but if you have a flakey solinoid, it may have too much resistance across the contacts or the travel may be restricted, especially when it gets hot. Have just gone through this with the Mercedes (same system). Worked fine on the bench but had no ummph under load. Also check the positive cable itself. Over time the conections get corroded and, while the ends may look fine, inside they aren't making good contact.

As far as the engine quitting, Gord and I are experiencing similar problems on his 91 Roady. Had all the typical symptoms of a bad fuel pump (car would quit, bang the tank and car would start up again). Replaced the pump this weekend and now sometimes it won't start. Cycle the key a few times and it fires up normally. Checked the conector at the oil pressure switch and got a spark so that might be the problem (hope the new FP wasn't a waste of money). Will use the pressure by-pass circuit to verify.

Just some thoughts.

Bill

I finally got to check the car out today. After cleaning the terminals, the car started normally. It seems to crank a little longer than I like, but It may still be normal. The only conlusion I can come to is that the battery connectors were corroded. Everything else acts normal.
Thanks for the advice, you kept me from doing a lot of unnecessary work.

It did it again today...it is definitely the starter...solenoid clicks, but no starter. I may have another issue as well...the engine just quit when I came to a stop. It may be the ignition module in the distributor. I am going to tackle the starter tonight, and maybe the module tomorrow.

Replaced starter, finished at 2:30 AM. Fortunately it started right up. I will run it for a few days and see what happens. The new starter is a bit more energetic than the old one. Thanks for all the help, you kept me from doing a lot of extra stuff, even though I ended up doing the starter twice.

One more follow up...The car used to stall once in a while, or shut off immediately after starting. It also chugged to a stop at a light a couple of times. It has not done that since I installed the new starter. I wonder if the contacts in the solenoid were shorting occasionally causing a momentary loss of power which caused the stall? Just a wierd observation. Nothing else was changed. Maybe I scared the engine into acting right, sort of like the Jeff Foxworthy joke where one kid got spanked and the others behaved for a week.

I was premature in thinking I had the idle problem fixed. I replaced the TPS, and cleaned the IAC and then replaced it with another one...no change in the symptoms. The symptoms only occured intermittently at idle. Then I remembered a thread on another forum, and thought I would R&R the alternator just for grins.

Well I finally got the culprit. The stumbling was caused by the alternator. The bearings must be starting to sieze. The idle was stumbling occasionally, and sometimes the computer would catch it, sometimes not. I swapped out the alternator, and it now idles consistantly and smoothly. I remembered hearing about a car which was "locked up", and after many hundreds of dollars in "repairs", the owner found that the alternator was locked up and the engine would not turn over with it in place.

This is one of the odd fixes that only happens occasionally, but everyone should be aware of.

Each part I replaced seemed to change the symptoms slightly. The last symptom was not starting after sitting for a while. It would act like it did not get enough fuel. It would run like it has a major fuel starvation problem for about a minute or two, then calm down and run normally. Since I already put in a new fuel pump (fortunately because the pump to tube hose was about to burst), a new pump relay, newer distributor, new cap and rotor (twice), TPS, and IAC cleaned, it had to be something else. Heat soak was my only clue. I tried replacing the coolant temp sensor on the manifold, and so far it has been starting for me without any problems, even when hot. I still get a little glitch once in a while, but I think it is the AC cycling (I need some refrigerant).

The melted fuse was due to a burned out blower motor. The OCC has an electronic fan speed control with 2 connectors, instead of the coil and resistor units with one connector on other cars. I guess the control limits the amount of current, and therefore did not burn itself up, but allowed enough current to heat and melt the #7 30 amp fuse.

Well, the car finally works correctly again. I took it to a mechanic...he worked on it for 2 days, and came up with a closed IAC, and the O2 reading full rich in closed loop. The car worked fine in open loop. He could not figure out how to make it work in closed loop. I got the car back, and thought about it overnight. I looked in the manual, and noticed that the sensors ground through the ECM. The ground for the ECM is G103, which just happens to be the one at the thermostat housing. This seemed too easy, but pulled it anyway, cleaned it, and reinstalled it. Now the engine is running like a top. The real culprit was the ECM ground at the thermostat housing.

Cudos to you Fred for not giving up!I also own a 91 OCC and I have learned a ton about what can go wrong with these wagons from you.Mine is very low miles and garage kept not that that means a lot but I am going to keep this story in a safe place for future reference.
I am not sure if I will have your determined ability to not give up when I reach your age in a few years but I hope so.Always been a big fan of the smoothies for a long time and they look great on your wagon.
Take Care
Jim aka Flasheroo