Unfortunate news

I wish I'd be posting under better circumstances.  I'm still in shock but I figured you guys would want to know.  

I'd been driving my new wagon to work about two weeks and on Friday morning 10/24 it had an engine fire and everything forward of the firewall was toasted, as well as the windshield, headliner, and part of the dashboard.   I'm sure it's a total loss.  

This was definitely one of the most traumatic experiences of my life.  I hope none of you ever experience it.  Any time I smell smoke now I get a little nervous (hopefully this will go away in time).  I was just driving down the road and all of a sudden I heard some funny noises from under the hood, the engine stopped and the car lurched to a halt, and a mass of vapors wooshed out from under the hood.  I shut it off and within 5 seconds the vapors ignited and things just got worse from there.  Traffic stopped and I had the person behind me call 911.  I got my belongings out of the car as fast as I could. I disconnected the fuel pump harness under the rear bumper to disable that and then tried to blow a fire extinguisher into the wheel well openings but there was no way to reach the top of the motor, and the hood release cable melted almost instantly.  The firefighters showed up within 5-7 minutes but car fires are FAST.   There are few things more depressing than having to stand there and watch your property burn and realize there's not a thing you can do about it.  Just absolutely debilitatingly depressing.

After the fact, the firefighters said it was good that I didn't open the hood as only massive amounts of water puts out car fires, and the dry powder fire extinguisher would have been ineffective anyways.

I'm doing okay, just had some smoke inhalation and apparently I breathed in a bit of dry powder fire extinguisher, both of which are very bad for you as I found out later.  I was coughing pretty good and so the firefighters had me taken to the hospital.  Apparently smoke inhalation takes 4-6 hours to manifest complications but they let me go early and told me to go home and rest and to come back if there were any problems (wheezing, shortness of breath, etc.).  So far I've been fine.  I thank God for all the adrenaline I had to be able to think fast, but I got home from the hospital I just slept all day.  I think I'm finally recovered this morning, two days later.

I had the car flatbedded to a repair shop across the street from my neighborhood (if your car is wrecked or breaks down and you know where you want it taken, make sure you specify).   Later that afternoon we went and got the remainder of our stuff out of it.

I had comprehensive coverage with a low deductible so I'm covered there.   The insurance adjuster is coming on Tuesday.  Fortunately I have many receipts from the previous owner which will help document the value of the car.  

If I can pass on my lessons learned, it is this: (EDITED - thanks for the input Buickwagon)
1. Call 911 as fast as possible.  Have someone else call for you if you can - you have too much to do.  
2. You have literally 5 seconds to put out the fire before it gets too big.  I had an extinguisher in the 3rd seat footwell and by the time I got back to the front of the car, the hood release cable had already melted. If the fire is bigger than the fire extinguisher, don't bother.
2. Leave the hood closed.
3. Get you and your passengers out to a safe place out of the road and away from the vehicle. If you can grab stuff on the way out, do it, but don't be hero to try to save anything. It's replaceable, you aren't.
4. Only if you know where this connector is and can do it in your sleep, disconnect the fuel pump harness under the rear bumper if the fire is in front.  As the insulation melts, the electrical system will go haywire and likely activate the fuel pump.

Under the hood is just a mess of melted plastic and bare copper wire.  There is no way to tell what caused it.  

Out of respect for myself and the previous owner (both of us were car guys with years of experience), I request that you not engage in any discussions on what might have caused it, nor any requests for parts.  Moderators, if you would, please delete any posts of this nature.  

Again, I hope this never happens to any of you.  Be careful out there.

If you wish to speak with me privately, feel free to PM.

Sorry for the crummy pics - I was still in shock at the time I took pics; just looking at the front of the car is difficult.  Everything above the bumper cover is damaged or burned.

Ouch.

Glad to hear you are ok. Sorry to hear (and see) that the wagon looks pretty bad. Hopefully insurance won't be too bad to deal with and you can find one as nice or nicer.

It probably could be fixed, but the time/effort involved with running new wires, replacing the dash, etc. is most likely not worth it from a cost perspective.

Joel

Sorry to hear of the loss, but it can be replaced. You're OK and that is what is important.

Tom

The important thing is you are ok...Jeff

Wow, major bummer! To echo the others, glad nobody was hurt and that you salvaged other belongings. Hopefully your insurance comes through. I'd be SOL as I only carry liability on my OCC.

Think I'll upgrade the extinguisher that I carry in the GN.

Yeah - I used to run only liability but a few years ago I found out that comp was dirt cheap and so I signed up for it. I'm glad I did.

After this, I am strongly considering an agreed-value or collector policy for my other RMW.

Oh man Joel that is lousy news. Such a nice car, I'm glad you're ok.

Mike

Dang. Sorry to see this Joel but glad that you're safe and unharmed!

Although you and I have never met face to face,I do consider you to be a good friend I am so glad you are OK.Get the wife to listen for any breathing because you wont hear any while she easily will.I learned that taking care of my parents.

How awful,.. glad you are ok,. you're one of the good ones,..


Nick

Sad news, glad you are ok.
Pete

Joel:

That is terrible news. I know they are inanimate objects, but it is none the less hard to see them go, especially this way. The important thing is you are all right and that no one was hurt in the process. Hope the insurance guy understands that this was not just another old car.

Bill

Sorry to hear about the fire . But glad your ok .

Glad there were no injuries or loos of life. Cars can, and will, be replaced.

Joel, I was really sorry to read this. I'm glad you're ok. Thanks for sharing the story and advice for us. I keep a small extinguisher in the door pocket, but I hope I never need it.

I will say that I think discussion on cause would be beneficial, however. It will help others. I'm sure no one would point fingers.

Sorry for the loss, hope you don't have any adverse effects with your breathing. Keep your head up the car can be replaced, and the insurance company should treat you right. My car was recently involved in an accident and was considered a total loss, after a few days to determine a fair market value I had a check for more than double what I paid for the car. You should do ok on that aspect, and I wish you the best on your small health issues. Good Luck

Wow. This is such a shame.

Glad you're okay. What a crazy turn of events on the longroof forum this week.

well handled.

Sorry to see the loss of the wagon, but more importantly you are fine. I have seen 2 cars go up over the years, it is a VERY scary deal!. Get out and call for help.

joel sorry for your loss, glad to hear u are ok

Glad your ok Joel. As your well aware cars can be replaced. I hope the insurance company treats you fairly. Shame to see that happen to such a nice car.

Hope your able to figure out what caused the fire.

First off, I'm sorry about your misfortune. Even though your loss is covered by insurance, these cars are getting rarer and you are undoubtedly upset about the damage or loss. But as others have said, "things" can be replaced one way or the other, people cannot, and I congratulate you on your escape.

sherlock9c1 wrote:

If I can pass on my lessons learned, it is this:
1. Call 911 as fast as possible.  Have someone else call for you if you can - you have too much to do.  
2. You have literally 5 seconds to put out the fire before it gets too big.  I had an extinguisher in the 3rd seat footwell and by the time I got back to the front of the car, the hood release cable had already melted.
2. Leave the hood closed, particularly if the fire is being fed by gasoline.
3. Get you, your passengers and your stuff out and to a safe place out of the road and away from the vehicle.
4. Disconnect the fuel pump harness under the rear bumper if the fire is in front.  As the insulation melts, the electrical system will go haywire and likely activate the fuel pump.

I'm not sure I fully agree with all of your recommendations. As some of you know, I'm a company officer in a major metropolitan department with 25 years of experience in this and have attended hundreds of car fires, so I'm not just blowing wind through my hat here. Obviously, calling 911 immediately is good advice.

As for the extinguisher, here's a guideline that applies to any fire: don't bother with the extinguisher unless it's bigger than the fire you face. As you probably noticed, you only have about 30 seconds of agent in the can. If you don't hit the seat of the fire in that time, it won't be effective and you just placed yourself at risk unnecessarily. If you do decide to use the extinguisher, follow the acronym PASS:
Pull the pin. (you'd be amazed at how many people forget this step)
Aim at the base of the fire. (Many people want to aim at the flames above the fire and overshoot. Aim at the burning object)
Squeeze the handle (some small units have a trigger instead)
Sweep from side to side (you want to coat all of the burning object, not just a small section)

You want to be about 5-8 feet away from the fire when you do this -- close enough for the agent to reach, but not so close that you will just blast the burning material around and spread the fire.

Keeping the hood closed is good, and the safest option. You can't even open it without sticking your fingers in under there anyway. If you can see flames then you know the fire is already bigger than the extinguisher in the footwell so there's no point either.

Now, that said, it's possible that one might open the hood to investigate a noise or warning light and then discover an incipient fire, in which case the fire extinguisher can come into play. This happened to me, personally in my 92 RMW many moons ago. One night on a family trip the alternator light came on. Then I started to hear a screeching sound so I pulled over and popped the hood. When I opened it, the alternator was glowing and the fan belt was on fire. By the time I fetched the extinguisher, the fire was licking at the fan shroud and other nearby combustibles, but was still small enough to tackle.  

Get out to a place of safety. Get your passengers out to a place of safety. So far so good. Getting your stuff out to a place of safety? Ummm, maybe not so good. After all, it conflicts with getting yourself and your passengers out to a place of safety and as we said, you can replace "stuff". You can probably safely grab something on the seat beside you as you exit the car, but please don't go back for more -- that's how we lose people.

Now, where is a "place of safety"? Obviously standing in a live lane is out. But there are some other considerations as well. As you discovered, the smoke can be just as dangerous as the fire itself. In fact, most fire victims are killed by the smoke, not burned to death, and all the plastics (including everything from rubber trim to carpeting) release some really nasty chemicals. So try to pick a spot upwind. As you also noticed, the fire will spread with amazing rapidity, so get at least twice as far away as you initially thought safe. Automobile fires are somewhat unique in that smoke and fire are not the only common hazards.

Cars are full of pressurized cylinders, everything from the shock-absorbing bumper mounts to the lift-gate cylinders on the rear glass. As the fire heats those cylinders, they can explode and launch parts of the car hundreds of feet. The most dangerous areas are directly in front and directly behind the vehicle, because a bumper traveling at a couple of hundred miles per hour will inflict serious damage, but a co-worker was seriously injured when a lift cylinder went through his leg as he approached the side of the car to attack the fire. (And yes, I saw the Mythbusters episode, and they were wrong. I. Have. Personally. Seen. It. Happen. Period.)

Disconnecting the fuel pump connector? I can see your logic: There's three ways to extinguish a fire, and removing the fuel is one of them. Plus, there's an unusually high percentage of gear-heads in this group that could probably put their hand unerringly on the connector.

But you are still placing yourself in a position of risk, unplugging the connector will not put out the plastics that are already burning, and most people will not find that connector at first swipe. And I mean swipe -- if this is something you feel you have to do, just grab the wires and yank them out by the roots. Don't fiddle around trying to release tab A from slot B. Personally, I rank this one right up there with saving "stuff" -- just get yourself to safety. Please.

Glad to hear you're ok Joel, I've seen flames inside my car before too, it's absolutely terrifying to see!

buickwagon - thanks for the comments.  You are definitely more of a veteran at this!  As I consider the event in retrospect, it could have been a lot worse. I do remember various pops and hisses going off as the fire progressed.   Next time, if there is one (hopefully not) I will not be fighting the fire.

That is some scary stuff. Glad you are OK, and I do not want to be a copycat.

The closest I ever came to having a car fire is about 2 months after my mom sold her old Chrysler, it was along side of the road, the victim of an engine fire.

It is amazing that there are many things that can start an engine fire that you would not think of, such as the alternator issue described above.

Wow, Joel. Sorry about your Wagon. Very glad that you were not seriously injured.

Quote :

The most dangerous areas are directly in front and directly behind the vehicle, because a bumper traveling at a couple of hundred miles per hour will inflict serious damage, but a co-worker was seriously injured when a lift cylinder went through his leg as he approached the side of the car to attack the fire. (And yes, I saw the Mythbusters episode, and they were wrong. I. Have. Personally. Seen. It. Happen. Period.)

"hello myth busters?,........... yeah,..it's about these exploding 200 mph bumpers from burning automobiles,."


Nick
born at night, but not last night,.

Man, just catching up on this....very glad you are ok!!!  

Chris

phantom 309 wrote:

"hello myth busters?,........... yeah,..it's about these exploding 200 mph bumpers from burning automobiles,."

Obviously I didn't have a radar gun pointed at the bumper at the time it departed the vehicle. But I assure you it left in an appreciable hurry.

As for the lift cylinder piston through the leg, it was a co-worker on a truck from a neighbouring station. I did not personally witness it, but I know the fellow quite well, I know the crew that did witness it, and I did see the entry and exit holes in his bloody bunker pants later. He was off work and on crutches for months. So I'm pretty sure it happened.



EDIT:

PS. When you call Mythbusters, make sure you send them this link: http://www.firefighterclosecalls.com/news/fullstory/newsid/182682

EDIT #2: Hey, youtube has several of them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqPGZBnNZ-Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGgjXvvmEEA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RNUAUy465A

(google is your friend)

EDIT #3:

Darn you, now you've got me hooked. However, I promise this will be the last one. Look at this:

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firefighternearmiss.com%2Fresources%2FReports_for_Training%2FActive_Resources%2FStrut_Related_Near_Miss_Reports.pdf&ei=6M5uUr7CLcamygGu-IH4Bw&usg=AFQjCNHvg6GBg09EqXefEx5QQiiJxHoPRw&sig2=5-MNMjqg8lNs7288IjMs8A

Now scroll down to Report #06-185, and read the third paragraph under "Lessons Learned". Oddly familiar, isn't it?

buickwagon wrote:

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firefighternearmiss.com%2Fresources%2FReports_for_Training%2FActive_Resources%2FStrut_Related_Near_Miss_Reports.pdf&ei=6M5uUr7CLcamygGu-IH4Bw&usg=AFQjCNHvg6GBg09EqXefEx5QQiiJxHoPRw&sig2=5-MNMjqg8lNs7288IjMs8A

Now scroll down to Report #06-185, and read the third paragraph under "Lessons Learned". Oddly familiar, isn't it?

 Wow, just read that article.  Hood and bumper struts going off all over the place.  Yikes.

Gosh Joel, that's an awful thing to have to experience. Sounds like you kept your cool and did what you could and didn't panic though. On the bright side, you got through it relatively unscathed, and fortunately it was just you in the car and not with the kids. Being responsible for yourself in an immediate emergency is one thing, but being responsible for a whole car load of panicked others would be much worse. Some things to be thankful for.

Joel, Its good to hear that you are ok,sorry to hear about the underhood fire. I am very sure
most average motorists would be thinking to themselves,as they passed your burning vehicle,well its an old car and its
probably been through so many owners ,what do you expect! I am sure any one that
goes to the pages of Longroof as ourselves realizes how much importance that we place
on our wagons. Also just how much time we put into them can be mind boggling,so no loss
of life ,but certainly loss of a friend. I will not go against your wishes ,as far as creating a
cause or failure analysis of your incident,but I do believe it would be something positive
comming from something very unfortunate. ed

truly sad to see. cant imagine seeing my own wagon burn up in front of me.

you did what you could and didn't get hurt (badly)

sorry you had to go through this.

Thanks everyone for the well wishes.  Give me a week or two to mentally decompress from all of this and then maybe we can talk about possible causes then.  I was planning to keep this car a long time, and this event completely changed my plans.  

I am meeting with the insurance appraiser tomorrow, getting a bit nervous about seeing the car again but I'll get through it.

Joel:

Good luck with the appraiser. Plans do change for one reason or another. Its a fact of life, but it has been my experience that in a lot of cases, the result is better than originally envisioned. Its what makes this hobby so compelling. There's always something else we can do to make them better.

In deference to your request to not let this thread deteriorate into a speculation frenzy most of us have refrained from discussing the cause. Having said that, I do think another thread should be started with a candid discussion about the various things that could go wrong. Many of our cars are now over 20 years old and experiencing issues never even dreamt of by the original designers.

These cars were for the most part, the first generation of cars to utilize the newer materials and electronic sub-systems that today are considered common place. Things like plastic fuel lines, full scale ECMs, optical ignition systems, multi port fuel injection and the list goes on. How these things age and what we should be looking for would be a good use of our time and our experience(s) to possibly avoid a repeat of your situation.

Many of us have experienced a system sourced car fire at some point but typically it has been through either neglect, incompetence or a serious design flaw such as the infamous Ford electrical systems in the 70s. Adding age deterioration to the mix should be explored. GM never expected these cars to last as long as they did, nor did they want them to, so they won't be much help. It is up to us to figure out how to keep these cars safe and reliable.

Again, good luck with the appraiser.

Bill

WoW! Joel I'm sorry to hear about this. I'm glad you're well and I hope everything progresses on your behalf.

WoW I just Don't know what else to say.

Convert 2 diesel Bill,
You made some excellent points as to why at some time we should go
through a failure analysis, however I beleive its fine to wait or for" a cooling off
period " (couldnt resist). We can certainly start thinking about what happend
in Joels situation without putting anything down in print. Then,when we get an all
clear we can begin to formulate. ed

The problem is that -- even with a car with the provenance of Joel's -- you are right, there would be a "speculation frenzy". We are not physically there to examine the evidence, nor are we experts in fire investigation. There's no way for us to guess at the cause, and even new cars sometimes suffer from engine fires. It could be as simple as a mouse nest that appeared overnight on the exhaust manifold. Small fire kindles, melts AC line, combustible AC lubricant sprays onto fire, and before you know it: Whoosh!

Damn Joel. Just seeing this. That sucks! But you're ok and luckily your kids and wife weren't in the car. Hopefully insurance will treat you right.

When did you move to Al??

buickwagon wrote:

The problem is that -- even with a car with the provenance of Joel's -- you are right, there would be a "speculation frenzy". We are not physically there to examine the evidence, nor are we experts in fire investigation. There's no way for us to guess at the cause, and even new cars sometimes suffer from engine fires. It could be as simple as a mouse nest that appeared overnight on the exhaust manifold. Small fire kindles, melts AC line, combustible AC lubricant sprays onto fire, and before you know it: Whoosh!

OK , "onward through the fog",  Yes, I do know we are not there to investigate,but possibly
         we could have Joel look at a few things for us. Or possibly we could list the 10 most
         probable reasons for an underhood fire, that way anyone that was interested could check
         their vehicles for these. I am a little surprised I THOUGHT THE FORUMS WERE CREATED
          TO ENHANCE THE KNOWLEDGE OF LONGROOF PEOPLE NOT STIFLE IT. ED

Ed, please knock it off.

If this continues to slowly turn into a failure discussion, I will ask the mods to lock the thread and we'll all take a break.

Point of the thread - I suffered a car fire, hope it never happens to you, if it does, don't try to be a hero, and give it a few before we talk on possible causes.

Joel,

  I can understand you have suffered a loss...and again...VERY glad you are ok.  But this is a public forum and you already know that (even though you asked from the start) people are going to ask why. It's just our nature as friends and mechanics who love these wagons.  Just hang in there, no one means to disrespect your wishes right now.  

------
Guys,

  Let's give Joel some room here...this is basically a "glad you are ok" thread and "how to act if this happens to you"

  If he decides to dig deeper, he will have lots of details I'm sure if he feels the need to share. Joel will move forward when he wants too.    

 Chris

Just saw this myself, and glad to hear you are OK. Obviously that's the important part. Hope you recover quickly and the insurance guys isn't a butthead, but after my Mom's 1 yr losing argument over her Mint Jag, I wish you Godspeed in dealing with the insurance company.

Let us know how it works out.

Joel sorry for your loss.
When your ready I may have something for you call me if you still have my # or just pm me.

Joel, it killed me to see the photos of your car-especially since mine is also a white/tan Roady. Since I am a retired insurance appraiser, pm me if you have any questions, or if I can in any way help out. As an appraiser, handling a total loss was always the hardest thing to do, even more so if the customer was a car guy with a really nice car. Just remember the insurance guy is just doing his job, so be respectful to him. I'm not saying roll over, just treat your exchange with respect and realize that it is, unfortunately, just a business dealing for him. If he sees how well your car was cared for, and you don't treat him poorly (believe me, I've been called every name in the book when I was working) he will treat you better, hopefully resulting in a faster, higher paying settlement. Just my 2 cents.  

Maybe I will spell it out a little,.

Joel doesn't want to discuss the car,..or the fire. He's an honorable guy,. so just let it ride.
Car caught fire. end of story,. speculation as to why may end up going in a direction that will do neither joel or the previous owner any good at all,.

Perhaps you bunch might understand the meaning of the word discretion,.?

Nuff said,. move along please and focus your speculative internet curiousity somewhere else.

Joel has politely said he'd like time to sort things out, 'decompress' etc,. respect his wishes, it,s been a traumatic time for him.

NICK

Gotta agree (as usual) with Nick on this one.

Joel is a good guy, give him the respect he asked for, is it really that hard?

That's it..... I left for a month and all thiscrap happens.... Holy cow...

Really REALLY sorry for your loss!

-Mike