INTAKE MANIFOLD HELP! ASAP

I was under the impression these motors had cast iron intakes. Is this true?

I never gave the intake a second though on my wagon and was surprised to learn when cleaning it up for paint that it's aluminum.

Yes, it is aluminum, and because of that, you have to be careful with the steel ground stud beside the thermosat. If it gets water on it, it will corrode (dissimilar metals undergo electrolisis in the presence of impure water), and you will have wierd engine problems. The ground is for the ECM and the O2 sensor.

BTW, when I was re-gasketing my intake maifold I had to lift it at arm's length, and if it was cast iron, I probably could not have done it alone.

Yeah. I assumed it was iron and had a friend to help me lift it, but once I pried it from the old crusty gasket and gave it a tug, I was surprised to know that I could carry it up alone. Quite strange, I thought.


I was just wondering, because I know my car has had SOME mods by the previous owner, but I don't know what all was done.

Anybody know what the timing should be set at? I tried to line everything back up but I guess I'm off by a significant margin (car won't start). I've heard that you can advance it a few degrees past stock for a little performance boost, but when you don't know what stock IS, that doesn't help much - lol.


Input appreciated.

Stock is 0 degrees. I put 3 degrees in, and got hesitation and surging. I would suggest using the stock setting. Don't forget to disconnect the signal connector on the PS valve cover.

You may have it off by a lot. Mine started with 4 degrees retarded timing, and ran with as much as 4 degrees advance. Put a timing light on it, and crank it. Put white or orange paint (or your wife's/girlfriend's nail polish if you can stand the heat) on the timing mark so that you can see it easily. You can put the paint on when the mark is on the bottom.

pull no 1 spark plug,. get someone to bump the starter till you feel compression against your finger,. now you're on the compressions stroke,. (bump the starter, don't crank it)
when the mark on the balancer comes around, line it up at 6-8deg Btdc, now pull the cap off and make sure you are actually lined up on no1 spark plug wire,get as close as you can but not exact is fine at the moment,..turn the key on, put the spark plug into the wire lay it somewhere where it can ground itself,.now very slowly rotate the distributor cap back and forth so the cap is moving back and forth over the rotor,. and you'll get the hang of it when the spark starts jumping in the plug,. now vey slowly again rotate until the spark jumps and then stop immediately, and tighten the distrib down lightly so it'll stay,. re-install the plug and try it,.
having just sparked at 6-8 degs,. the timing should end up real close to where you need it,.
(you may need to pull the distributor and move it a tooth or two,. to get lined up on no1 if the distrib doesn't drop down all the way,. carry on with the procedure as i outlined for you,. when you are satisfied you are close,. have someone just bump the starter again while you are applying a light pressure on the distrib,. and it will drop down into the oil pump slot,.
then tighten it and try,.
If you,ve been cranking excessively the motor might be flooded,. just keep you foot flat to the floor till it catches,. that turns off the injectors during the crank cycle on a tbi.

works for me,.
Nick

Fred has a great addition,. mark the balancer and the timing tab ,. i use white out,.

I didn't see any connector on the valve cover? Do you have a photo by chance?

Did you mark the distributor and rotor when you pulled it?

Yes sir I did.

Stumped, I am.

Okay. Tried Nick's suggestions, can't get it to do much. It runs, but once you put it in gear or turn the AC on, it dies.

Now 12 hours into this project and severely annoyed. Still don't see what Fred is talking about on the valve cover, and would love a photo of what I'm supposed to be looking at.

I do not have a photo, but it is a flat connector that lays on the intake manifold side of the passenger's side valve cover, just in front and to the passenger's side of the throttle body. It is the only one there. If you do not disconnect it, and attempt to set the timing with the timing light, the timing will be severly retarded, because the computer will try to make it "correct".

Are you using a timing light? All the fiddling without a timing light is useless. If your distributor rotor is positioned close to the #1 cap connector you should be able to get it to run. You have to set the timing or it will not run properly (for example...die when you put it in gear, or when you try to run the AC).

Check and double check that you have the correct wires to the correct plugs. They are somewhat convoluted, and have to be correct. Plug wire sequence: counterclockwise from the left of the dist cap hold down screw 1,2,7,5,6,3,4,8. The #1 wire should be almost at the center front, just a little to the left. Driver's side cylinders: from the front to the back are 1-3-5-7, passenger's side: from front to back 2-4-6-8. Put looms on the wires to keep them from touching anything!!!! Make looms from nylon tiewraps if you do not have the correct ones. A 4 wire tiewrap loom takes 8 tiewraps (one to hold the loom to the proper post).

Stingroo wrote:

Okay. Tried Nick's suggestions, can't get it to do much. It runs, but once you put it in gear or turn the AC on, it dies.

Now 12 hours into this project and severely annoyed. Still don't see what Fred is talking about on the valve cover, and would love a photo of what I'm supposed to be looking at.

watch this.

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Ray,

Any of this pertain to you?

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phantom 309 wrote:

Stingroo wrote:

Okay. Tried Nick's suggestions, can't get it to do much. It runs, but once you put it in gear or turn the AC on, it dies.

Now 12 hours into this project and severely annoyed. Still don't see what Fred is talking about on the valve cover, and would love a photo of what I'm supposed to be looking at.

watch this.

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THANK YOU. I was looking for this like all damn day.

I definitely didn't disconnect that wire. I was digging in the FSM and disconnected something that was on the right fender.


Okay, will report back tomorrow. Too damn dark, and too damn tired.

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap. It starts up, sounds great, but if you put it in gear it just dies.


Any other ideas? Is there like an idle screw like a carb? Anything?

Stingroo wrote:

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap. It starts up, sounds great, but if you put it in gear it just dies.


Any other ideas? Is there like an idle screw like a carb? Anything?

Double check all your vac lines. My car did the same exact thing when we forgot to plug the MAP back in. Also, it may not be that a line isnt plugged in but cracked or degraded to the point that it'll cause a leak.

If you two foot it does it help by holding the idle up somewhat?
sounds like your iac is not working "uplugged" ??
go buy a cheap vacuum guage,.
should have better than 18inches at idle,.

Another thing you can check is the wires at the ignition module on the distributor. I had the insulation harden, crack, and fall off. I used liquid tape to insulate them after seperating the wires.

Make sure your ECM and O2 ground at the thermostat is good. Mine would stall because the ground was faulty.

When was the last time you changed the fuel pump, and short fuel line in the tank? If it is starved for fuel it will act like you describe.

I haven't changed the fuel pump during my ownership. I've had it since 102k miles (119k now).

It idles just fine until I put it in gear. If I two-foot it it dies.

map sensor not plugged in?
something isn't right,. did it run fine before you pulled it apart?
cliff notes here please,. why did you pull it apart??
perhaps you,ve dislodged a gasket and it has a vacuum leak??
what's the idle rpm?
have you set the timing properly?<<< 0 but 0 on which reference points,.

with the motor idling, if you move the distrib cap slightly counterclockwise does it sound /act better?

Nick
working with a cloudy crystal ball here,.

Ran just fine before we pulled it apart. It got pulled apart because I was leaking oil at the rear of the intake, so we replaced gaskets to fix that problem.

MAP sensor is plugged in. I don't know what the idle RPM is, I don't have a tach.

It does sound slightly better if moved counterclockwise. I spoke with Sprocket on the phone and he thinks I have it misaligned on the bottom end of the distributor. Will check tomorrow with some daylight.

Stingroo wrote:

I I spoke with Sprocket on the phone and he thinks I have it misaligned on the bottom end of the distributor. Will check tomorrow with some daylight.

EH?? misaligned on the bottom of the distributor?

well if you have set the base timing like you say you have,.with the est disconnected it makes no difference where the dizzy is in relation to the firewall,.or where no1 plug wire is,.

for all you other intake removing to fix oil leak guys,.

try washing the back of the intake with brake cleaner where it meets the block,. then using your finger and some rtv sealer,. trowel some silicone into the gap (DON"T BE A MORON AND FILL THE INTAKE UP WITH TWO TUBES OF SILICONE BECAUSE IT ALL DISAPPEARED THRU THE GAP) after you,ve closed the gap all along ,. let it set up and it should be fine,.it's only splash oil no pressure to speak of,.
works for me, a small dentist type mirror really helps along with a strong flash light,.

Nick
crystal ball still cloudy,.

From your description, the distributor may be one tooth off. The timing mark should not have been correct if the distributor is off by a tooth, or you have turned the distributor excessively in one direction or the other to get the mark to line up. Did you put the sensor for the timing light on the #1 plug wire?

no matter where the dizz iz,. if it's timed right (as he stated he already did) then as i said,. it makes no difference where no1 is positioned,.

i already suspect that it is not timed correctly,. or possibly plug wires mixed up,.5-7 is common,.
but thats just me,.more advance quickens the idle giving the impression its running better,. when all its doing is running faster badly,.
flatten the throttle and see if it craps and bangs thru the exhaust or the intake,. if it does, go back and carefully check the FO and make sure the wires are on the right plugs,.
Nick
crystal ball shut off for now.

.

Stingroo wrote:

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap.

Will check plug wires one more time in the morning and see.

Gah, this is so irritating. lol

Did you try squirting some water with a couple of drops of dishwashing liquid on the manifold, and hoses to check for leaks. If it gets sucked up, you have found the leak. If not, you do not have a leak.

It ran before you touched it, so limit your searching to the things you R&Rd.

Propane bottle works well,. turn the propane on(UNLIT OF COURSE) and run the nozzle around the edge of the intake,vacuum points etc,.. if the motor runs nice you,ve got a leak,. also works if you feed it down the throttle body,.if the motor smooths out you,ve vacuum problems,.
Nick
something like this,.
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Did you make TWO marks for the rotor? Since the distributor gear is helical, the rotor turns when you pull the distributor. You need to mark where the rotor is pointing, then make a new mark where the rotor points as you pull the dist. Then, when you reinstall, you point the rotor at the SECOND mark, drop the distributor, and the rotor should be pointing at the original mark. Then, you line up the distributor with the mark you made on the bottom of the distributor and the intake.

jayoldschool wrote:

Did you make TWO marks for the rotor? Since the distributor gear is helical, the rotor turns when you pull the distributor. You need to mark where the rotor is pointing, then make a new mark where the rotor points as you pull the dist. Then, when you reinstall, you point the rotor at the SECOND mark, drop the distributor, and the rotor should be pointing at the original mark. Then, you line up the distributor with the mark you made on the bottom of the distributor and the intake.

Stingroo wrote:

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap.

the horse has left the barn,. the car runs,.makes no difference now where the dizzy is,.

hello??
hello?

is anyone listening?

phantom 309 wrote:

jayoldschool wrote:

Did you make TWO marks for the rotor? Since the distributor gear is helical, the rotor turns when you pull the distributor. You need to mark where the rotor is pointing, then make a new mark where the rotor points as you pull the dist. Then, when you reinstall, you point the rotor at the SECOND mark, drop the distributor, and the rotor should be pointing at the original mark. Then, you line up the distributor with the mark you made on the bottom of the distributor and the intake.

Stingroo wrote:

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap.

the horse has left the barn,. the car runs,.makes no difference now where the dizzy is,.

hello??
hello?

is anyone listening?

According to Stingeroo it still does not run properly.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

jayoldschool wrote:

Did you make TWO marks for the rotor? Since the distributor gear is helical, the rotor turns when you pull the distributor. You need to mark where the rotor is pointing, then make a new mark where the rotor points as you pull the dist. Then, when you reinstall, you point the rotor at the SECOND mark, drop the distributor, and the rotor should be pointing at the original mark. Then, you line up the distributor with the mark you made on the bottom of the distributor and the intake.

Stingroo wrote:

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap.

the horse has left the barn,. the car runs,.makes no difference now where the dizzy is,.

hello??
hello?

is anyone listening?

According to Stingeroo it still does not run properly.

thanks captain obvious,.
he probably should re-re the fuel pump right?

phantom 309 wrote:

Fred Kiehl wrote:

phantom 309 wrote:

jayoldschool wrote:

Did you make TWO marks for the rotor? Since the distributor gear is helical, the rotor turns when you pull the distributor. You need to mark where the rotor is pointing, then make a new mark where the rotor points as you pull the dist. Then, when you reinstall, you point the rotor at the SECOND mark, drop the distributor, and the rotor should be pointing at the original mark. Then, you line up the distributor with the mark you made on the bottom of the distributor and the intake.

Stingroo wrote:

Okay, pulled the right connector, set it at 0, plugged connector back in, still runs like crap.

the horse has left the barn,. the car runs,.makes no difference now where the dizzy is,.

hello??
hello?

is anyone listening?

According to Stingeroo it still does not run properly.

thanks captain obvious,.
he probably should re-re the fuel pump right?

Maybe it was a mistake listening when you spued. You should make an attempt to solve the problem instead of acting the fool.

Actually it does matter what position the distributor is located. There are some parts that interfere with the ability to rotate it enough to set the time properly. I had one off by a tooth, and could not turn it far enough clockwize to get the timing right. The ignition wires are not designed to stretch that far either, further impeding the rotation of the distributor.

I did not suggest changing the fuel pump, because it ran fine when he disassembled it. There is no reason to replace it. If he checks the fuel pressure, and the pressure is low, then he should take that approach. The fuel pump hose crack has a few symptoms that are distinctive, and when they appear, the chance of a cracked hose is high. His symptoms are not those of a cracked hose.

How do I know if I'm on the right tooth when I drop the distributor back in? Do I just keep tapping the starter to turn the motor over until it runs right or what?


Didn't have time to fiddle with it today really. Had to run dad to some doctor's appointments, etc.

When the engine is at #1 TDC of the compression stroke, the rotor should point to the front of the engine just slightly to the DS of center. The mounting pad for the cap should be directly front and center. I use an old distributor shaft to turn the oil pump shaft so that it engages properly, if I accidentally move it.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

You should make an attempt to solve the problem instead of acting the fool.

yeah you're right i should,. perhaps you might re-read my previous posts on this matter,. and see exactly which part i missed captain.

So often these threads crop up with inexperienced guys trying to fix their own car,. then things go sideways,. then fella's like you come up with all kinds of weird and wonderful once in a lifetime maybe type fixes. intypical internet fashion, everyone with a keyboard is a bona fide wrenchmaster,.

It ain't magic,. either he's set the timing properly or he's bullshitting, or he thinks he's set the timing correctly and he hasn't,. and /or it has a vacuum leak that he doesn't have the experience to diagnose or track down,.

lets deflate the elephant here,. neither you or I can see exactly what he has or hasn't accomplished,.so we have to take him at his word,. confusing the issue and trying to add more gas to the fire and trying to look real clever isn't helping,. so lets leave the distributor thing alone for now,.
He's a grown man,. and google and youtube are his friends,.

I,m done with this thread, i,m going to leave it up to the experts, and go back to being the fool,.it takes more intelligence to do that.

Nick

I posted my how to (which is what I learned when I was a kid, and has always worked) to see if we could figure out exactly where Ray went wrong. From there, work the problem backwards.

Ray, read my post, and tell us exactly how you removed the dist, and what you did to mark 1: dist, 2: intake, 3: rotor before, 4: rotor after.

Okay

I ran one sharpie mark down the rotor, and the distributor. I didn't mark the intake. Didn't know I was supposed to.

Ok, that means that you have no idea where the distributor is supposed to be in relationship to to the engine. The marks you have on the rotor and the distributor are the AFTER marks. As you pull the dist, the rotor will rotate slightly. SO, if you lined up the rotor to the mark BEFORE dropping it back in, you are off. You need to line it up a little off, so that when you drop it, the lines match up. Make sense? Then, time it.

Next time, follow my first post to make all the marks. Foolproof. Even Stingproof

Don't give up, bud. You'll get it. Nick will probably come back and help, too. If he was at your house, he would have fixed it in about ten minutes. Speaking from experience. He's a hands on teacher, and get frustrated with us rookies sometimes.

Your marks are all irrelevent at this point. The marks are only good if you do not move the rotating assembly. You should approach it as a new engine. Set your #1 on top dead center on the compression stroke. If I were there I would set it for you once you got it to dead top center. You can tell by looking at the timing marks because it will be at 0 degrees (it will also be at 0 degrees at the top of the exhaust stroke too). You will know it is on the compression stroke, because you felt the air come out of the plug hole. If you get it a little off one way or the other...a couple of degrees is OK. You will be close enough. Then insert the distributor so that the rotor is pointing close to the center side of the coil. You may have to use the slot on the shaft for a marker, because I believe the distributor will not go in with the rotor installed. The pad with the hole for the front distributor cap screw should be in the center front. Install the dist. cap, and make sure all the wires go where they should (see above list). Use dialectric grease on all plug wires and the coil wire.

So f*cking frustrated with this car!~#!$@%^%!#


Followed instructions TO A T:

Pull distributor
All eight plug wires and coil wire
Disconnect negative battery cable
Disconnect EST wire between intake and valve cover
Make sure #1 cylinder is TDC on the compression stroke, set timing to 0
Place distributor back in making sure it slides into the grooves and seats all the way
Make sure rotor is pointing at the coil, #1 wire goes here.
Reattach cap.
Follow firing order on intake (FSM matches this number) 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2
Crank motor without EST plug - no start
Crank with EST plug - no start.


I DON'T GET IT.

When you crank how does the spray at the Throttle body look? Not saying anything about your skillz but I had a buddy in college rip half his engine apart and it was out of gas....

Car's got a full tank of gas.

That's the really crappy part about this. All that gas and I can't go ANYWHERE. lol

Fuel pump?

pretty sure any small block chevy is 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2

cept gen3's they switched the 4+7,.

Nick

When you point the distributer at the coil, is it just off center frm straight front, or is it pointing at the center of the coil?

Pointing at the center of the coil.

phantom 309 wrote:

pretty sure any small block chevy is 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2

cept gen3's they switched the 4+7,.

Nick

That's what I followed. I copied the number written in Fred's post on page 1 and just realized. (Oops).

Try moving it one tooth counterclockwise.