Big block build for the Starship

Fred Kiehl wrote:

I turned the motor over with the starter today, and got no oil pressure. I have been reading up on Gen 6 454s, and there are some weird oiling issues. I am going to call a dealer/specialist tomorrow to find out if I need to do some minor mods.

I did not get the pump primed properly, and may have found a way to get some goo into it so that it will prime properly. More on that later.

So I am stalled for the moment, and trying to come up with a solution.

When an oil pump is submerged in oil,. it is ready to go,..it likely that something after the pump is the problem,.
UNLESS the new pump has assembly debris inside from the factory,. i have had 2 mellings pumps i have found debris inside right out of the box,.

Some idea's i have fred,.

gen 6 has those weird bypass valves in them,.

priority main oiling,. pull the intake and make sure oil is coming up past the back cam bearing,.

you could pull a lifter from cylinder 3, and see if you get an oil stream from the lifter feed hole,.

It needs the correct priming tool if iirc,. to seal off the lower oil gallery,.

do you have the oil pressure guage at the top end or down low?

If it's low

i'd revisit the oil pump pickup to make sure it hasn't fallen off,.possibly its buried on the bottom of the pan?


What kind of assembly lube did you use ?
too much can cause feed problems on a new engine,.

I personally like to prime a new engine while its on the stand and the motor is naked,.

I wish you luck in finding a solution,.

If you'd like to talk send me a pm

We have oil pressure. I backflushed the oil pump with some Motor Honey, and cranked it. It took about 4 seconds to get pressure.

I had to reattach the fuel lines to the modified sender, because the helper I had, put the return line on the pressure side, and left the pressure line off entirely. I now have fuel pressure.

I put a spare plug on the #1 wire, and it sparked, so I have spark. I am going to check if I have the distributor clocked correctly, and then will be looking at the Holley manual incase I have anything wrong.

I poured a little gas in the TB, and cranked it...Blam...big backfire.

Knocking one thing out at a time. Not much left.

It ran for the first time on the 25th. I took it to the muffler shop. I had a cop drive beside me half the way there...very unnerving.

I had a couple of leaks, but have them under control.

The first real issue I have to deal with is no power brakes. It looks like I need a vacuum pump. If anybody has any suggestions, I would like to hear them.

That thing must fly! Looking forward to pics!

Fred Kiehl wrote:

It ran for the first time on the 25th. I took it to the muffler shop. I had a cop drive beside me half the way there...very unnerving.

I had a couple of leaks, but have them under control.

The first real issue I have to deal with is no power brakes. It looks like I need a vacuum pump. If anybody has any suggestions, I would like to hear them.

How about a hydroboost conversion? That would be cool.

Driving without the vacuum assist for the brakes is a little scary. It takes forever to stop. I do not want to build any speed with the current brake system, until I get power assist back.

it should build a vacuum after driving it a bit,.

The only vacuum it will build is behind it. I will test it again when I get the exhaust work done.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

The only vacuum it will build is behind it. I will test it again when I get the exhaust work done.

Brake booster might be buggered or the check valve not checking,.

when you are driving and you close the throttle and coast while slowing down,.,. even with the biggest cam the motor males vacuum on the overrun,.

Hydro boost is an easy swap,. just need a ps pump with the three lines from a one ton truck,.

I did not change the booster, and the check valve is the same one that was on the car before the swap. Closed or open throttle does not make a difference.

A vacuum pump with pressure switch is relatively easy to install as well.

Does anyone know if the check valve must be in the vertical position to work? I canted mine, and think that may be the issue with my power assist.

I had eye surgery last week, and can not work on my minor issues, so I thought I would ask for information.

I am still fighting gremlins. I had to replace the distributor before I got to start it, and that required me to pull the intake manifold. In doing do I had some "help", and ended up with the gaskets getting torn. The original radiator cap did not seal properly, and I got a new one. That is when I found out that the gaskets were torn...I got coolant in the oil, so had to drain the oil and flush the engine oil passages.

I also had a rocker stud back out, and am in the process of retightening all of them with Locktite. So far I have 10 miles on the car. The associated noise from the rocker being loose had me remove the valve cover, and that is when I found the oil issue. Fortunately it did not run but a few seconds with the foamed oil.

I did the alignment, and no longer have any shims in the passenger's side, or the back of the driver's side. The urethane bushings must really push the arm around. The toe appeared to be within 1/16th of an inch, and I made a small adjustment in that as well. Once the engine issue is resolved, I will be able to move the car, and check the toe again, to see if I got it right.

The transmission cable did not set correctly, so I replaced it while I had the car up for the filter change.

When I first put the radiator in, It was seated precariously, and I moved it to the driver's side about an inch. That required a new trans coolant line. I may have to move it just a little more, but I think I can compensate with a small bend in the line, instead of making a completely new line.

The seemingly never ending quirks are somewhat demoralizing.

I got the exhaust done, and am happy with the sound. It is not nearly as loud as the open headers were while driving to the muffler shop.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

I am still fighting gremlins.

The seemingly never ending quirks are somewhat demoralizing.

Gotta look on the bright side of life man.  You had that car damn near completely disassembled from the cabin foreword.  

You've come a very long way.  Had good/bad luck catching things in the process that could have ruined this build and came out on top.

It's back together and there's probably only a box or two of parts left over:D  

Beers to celebrate next time I'm around Tampa.

I got all of the rockers adjusted again. Today I am going to check for leaks in the coolant system, then put the valve cover back on.

Update for the BBC.

The car moved under its own power again today. No discernible leaks.

I had a coolant leak that I thought was the lower hose. It turned out to be one of the unused bolt holes on the front of the water pump. A set screw fixed that. How many more dumbass BS things can I find.

I played with a vacuum pump and got the power brakes working again.

The car was sitting so low, that I feared for the oil pan, so I put a 1/2 inch spacer under the front springs, and realigned it, I now have shims under all corners of the control arm mounts. I still have about a 3 1/2 inch drop, maybe more if it settles.

The front brake line that goes to the passenger's side was too close to the header, so I reconstructed it. I found a much better path. I had to make it in two pieces to be able to install it.

There have been some issues since the last update. It got rain in every pore, and has been hit twice in my father's driveway. Once by my dad, doing minimal damage, and then hit an run by a "turn around". I finally have the engine the way I want it, but have to go to the AC shop for a custom hose, and charge. It will be going to the body shop this week for the dent removal.

I removed the interior to find the leak, and there seems to be none. It rained heavily a few times since I removed the interior, and no water. I guess the water in the back footwell was from the tropical storm a month ago, or even longer. I painted all the areas where water could run down with water color, so if a leak occurred, the paint will have a streak in it. After a week of rainy evenings, no water???

I currently have a hood with the dinosaur turd on it (lump to allow room for the carb hat on my TB, but am about to make a custom hood with a sleek symetrical bump in it.

Here is a picture of the engine in its final trim minus the AC hose.

Notice that the original 93 Fleetwood serpentine belt decal is correct.

So tell us how it pulls,.!!

It needs to go to the AC shop and the body shop. I am going to verify my alignment tomorrow morning, and I also have to put a beefier rear in it before I start stabbing the loud pedal. I replaced the original axles with Chinese/Indian axles a few years ago, and would not want to snap an axle and end up alongside the road. I moved it about 6 feet to take the pressure off of the suspension to verify the camber. It got too hot today to continue working on it.

The sound is amazing, even at idle.

Do I see the a cut off valve to shut off the heatercore? Thats a old trick we use up here to keep some extra heat out of the cabin/interior. Especially in trucks.

You guessed right.

Tried driving it today, and have a/some issue(s). It does not mind idling, but when I give it throttle it does nothing. Sometimes it will clear up at about 2000RPM, and run good. Then it does not want to idle at 900RPM. At this time I have no idea what the issue is. I have some homework to do.

What software are you using to tune it with?

If it bogs when you hit it, look at the AE vs TPS chart (Acceleration Enrichment vs Throttle Position Sensor.) Bump it up on the lower % of opening settings. Keep track of temperatures when it happens and the time from initial starting.

I am using the Holley computer and software. I have to get a USB extension cable. I ordered it, and it should be here on Monday.

It makes a big sigh when I give it throttle. I talked to Holley, and they said that it could be a bad TPS, or MAP sensor.

I have issues with the power brake booster helping out with the brakes as well. I do not know if they are both related, or if they are completely separate.

When you hit the gas pedal, the throttle plate opens. A massive rush of air comes in, and throws the AFR lean. There should be a table to add fuel based on the percentage of CHANGE to the TPS. The lower percentages need a boost around the 3-15% of change.. Keep in mind it's not how open it is, it's how much the position CHANGED from the last split second.

What's your fuel pressure?

I can monitor it with my laptop when I get the USB extension cable. It will give me real time information, so that I can make adjustments. It also has self learning capabilities turned on, and I am not sure why it is not learning.

I will be checking the TPS, as well as other functions. The other quirks tend to make me believe there is more going on than just the fuel enrichment for acceleration, as it can learn to add fuel for that.

It would not be a surprise to find out the system learns  to correct your basic fuel table(s) when NOT accelerating. Handling Acceration Enrichmen (AE) is not always  component of the learning cycle. It is equivalent to a pump shot of a carb system.

Other reasons for not learning can be that it may only learn  when it reaches closed loop  conditions and not in open loop. Closed loop is commonly tied to  reaching  a minimum coolant temp, and runtime before it allows closed loop operation.

Although GM had to disable "highway mode" because it cheated the CAFE numbers by pulling fuel to run lean, subroutines like that screw up the learn, as one part to trying to take away fuel,  as another part to trying to restore it. IF it is in your software , the easiest way to disable it is by raising the minimum speed for activation to a high number like 150 mph.

Sometimes it is a simple as your laptop (software) is not recognizing which communications port is being utilized for recognition.

The learning mode is on at all times in the software. No speed, no temp, no time, and no closed/open loop option.

I have not done any real time monitoring as yet, because I am awaiting the cable. I will have a co-pilot who is computer savvy do the monitoring while I drive. I do not have an issue with the computer recognizing the correct port. It uses the same one that it used for installing the software.

There is a chart of the fuel enrichment that can be managed. I will address that when I am monitoring it in real time. Hopefully I will get the cable on Monday. Until then I am not going to change anything, because it may be a sensor as much as a program table.

This is starting to give me some flashback nitemares,of my first and only experience with Holley FI. It was on my first B-Body, built a 383,same symptoms. Stab the gas,choke,choke sputter then bam! It took Holley techs coming up to my neck of the woods to straighten it out. Wishing you a better outcome.

I have not had a chance to monitor the situation yet. I hope I can get it straightened out next week.

But I guess the question is, how well does it learn? OEM systems "learn" in closed loop, which means they adjust dynamically to driving conditions BASED on pre-calibrated tables and variables. I also had this experience when I put TPI on my C10. I had it tuned "close enough" where it would run and drive but I had a heck of a trial getting there, and I still had some weird drivability issues. Not sure if that was due to the junkyard parts I used or my tune. All the local resources I reached out to at the time couldn't really help, so it was down to throwing new parts at it to try and fix the issue. Instead I chose to swap it out for a stock 5.3L and it's been great since. Anyways bit of a tangent there, but you do have a resource, it's an aftermarket system so likely there's a tuning shop in your area that could help you out, and shop around for a shop too if you go that route! Some of these places have no idea what they are doing and you might end off worse off. In my case there was no such resource as shops won't touch that old OBD GM stuff nowadays.

I can call Holley, ang get their input as well. Give it until next week, so I can take a stab at it. Until I get my cord, and can check it, all of the help I get is all theoretical. I need to get some facts, and will do so when I get the cord to attach my computer while motoring around the block.

The other thing is that very likely there is a forum dedicated to the Hollet system. Intyroduce youself, and make friends there.

http://forums.holley.com/forumdisplay.php?13-Holley-EFI

gotta prime it with the honey oil,...

I will take that under advisement.

I won't get the cable until at least Tuesday, because the PO is closed Monday for Columbus Day.

Here is the latest update.

I "accidentally" found that the fuel pressure regulator was leaking into the vacuum line, so I replaced the regulator.

I have been doing some other troubleshooting...I sent the program configuration and a data log to Holley, and they found that the wrong injector selection in the program caused some of the issues (learn table issue). I also was having idle issues. I removed the TB, and found that the TB gasket was too short, and did not seal the back of the TB against the manifold/linkage plate (vacuum leak/high idle issue). With that said, the engine is now running much better...maybe a few tweaks needed yet.

The trans needs to be adjusted, and I am going to the trans shop on Monday to have them check it. I do not think it is shifting into 4th properly, and it will upshift when doing a U-turn???

It has plenty of power, and will get to 50 in a hurry.

I burned through 3/4 tank of gas getting to this point, so had to drive it to the gas station...drove up, and the guy in front of me just had to see what was under the hood.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

It got too hot today to continue working on it.

That's not the worst problem to have!

You are a little late with the "too hot" comment. It is no longer hot here in FL. Now it is a matter of priorities. I am making good progress, and only have a few things to conquer.

When do we get the video!!

I do not do videos. Come to the Spring Turkey Rod Run to see it in person. I hope to have a custom (good looking) hood on it by then. The current hood has what looks like a dinosaur turd on it to accommodate the intake hat.

I just noticed Friday, that having a cover on the car had a disastrous affect on the paint. The paint on the roof has alligator skinned, and is blistered and cracking on the plastic parts. Just what I needed another headache.

Already blocked the calendar off...so I will be there! Time for the patina look....

"I do not do videos." This reads like there is a funny back story.

The paint makes it look like a real rat rod.

My TB gasket keeps getting sucked out from under the back of the TB. I guess I will have to make my own reinforced gasket. If there was ever a car that could try my patience, this is the one.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

My TB gasket keeps getting sucked out from under the back of the TB. I guess I will have to make my own reinforced gasket. If there was ever a car that could try my patience, this is the one.

I,m a little confused,. sucked out? would indicate pressure forcing gasket outwards?

If the gasket is getting sucked into the TB with vacuum,..

I'd look at,.

TB base not matching the intake manifold,.

Manifold warped,.
TB base warped,.
wrong gasket,.

I have already determined that the plate for the linkage is not long enough to cover the vacuum chamber at the rear of the TB. I am making a plate to extend past the chamber, and it will go on top of the linkage plate. The linkage plate will seal against the extended plate on the bottom and the plate that sits on top it will seal with the TB. I am making it out of 1/8 inch stainless steel, so it will not bend.

I looked at another plate for under the TB, and it was the same shape, in that area, as the linkage plate I have on the car now. I could also use another linkage plate that does not go under the TB, but I believe the one I am making will be the easiest direction. The other plate available does not easily accommodate the three cables I have.

I found a throttle linkage plate that will work without a second plate under the TB (only after I spent 7 hours hogging one out of stainless steel with rudimentary tools). I have modified it, made a wider mounting plate for the cruise control, and it is in place. I need to tighten the TB down, adjust the trans cable, and check for operation.

I relocated the wiring for the injection system because I thought I was getting static in it. The tech at Holley said that the data logs were not filtered, and the "static" is normal. You would think the manufacturer would put a filter on it to make a nice line for the data, instead of making you guess at the mean for the lines. Now I am (with great effort) going to move all the wiring, and computer back to where it was, because that wasn't an issue in the first place,, and it looks better where it was.

Slowly, one quirk at a time. I will get this running, and I am down to minimal issues.

BTW, I clamped heat shields on my exhaust pipes, and although they probably worked, they vibrated, and made an obnoxious noise, so I took them off. I am going to insulate the interior floor instead.

I got the engine running right. I took it for a short ride, and it really scoots. It is really loud, and since I have the carpet out, it is even louder.

I am going to recheck the toe-in tomorrow, because my steering wheel is pointed to the left a little. Then it goes to the trans shop to see why it up-shifts when going around corners, or doing U-turns.

I need to set the idle down a little, and will do that while I am over checking the toe. After that, I am headed to the body shop to get the hit and run damage fixed.

I will have a lot of time to work on the carbon fiber hood with a custom bulge for the intake. Then I can get rid of the dinosaur turd hood I have now.

All is good with the engine. Trans cable ratcheted, but I have not tested the shifting yet. I got the steering wheel straight with correct toe. I ordered a coupler for the upper coolant hose, so that I can put a bleeder valve at the highest point in the system. It should be here early this week. Then it is off to the body shop to fix the hit and run damage. After that, I am going back to the paint shop that did the complete paint job for the roof mess. I think it was not dry from the morning dew when it was painted, because the roof rack is not a mess, and it was painted at the same time, but sat indoors before painting.

Next month I will be looking at tires for the rear. Probably 255/50/17s

Got wheel choice figured out?

I have a set of Impala wheels.

I did some research on the Evans coolant, and it doesn't seem to live up to the expectations of their advertising. According to tests, the cylinder head temperatures are supposed to run a lot higher, to the tune of 120-140 deg. I am going to use a product called Hyperkuhl made by No-Rosion, and reverse osmosis drinking water. The combination was documented to reduce temperatures by about 20% over 50-50 antifreeze.

I drove it to the body shop today after flushing the coolant, and installing the Hyperkuhl, and RO water. The cost for the body work is $300 plus I supply the paint.

It drove nice, and has great pickup. The 3.23 gears make it more of a highway car than a drag car.