Steering precision

BuickRM and I should get together, maybe start a Buick-VW parts exchange program

In my case, I was going to disconnect the steering box from the rest of the linkage, but I couldn't get the right puller in place, got tired and annoyed and gave up on it for now.

But, while I was under there I did re-grease all the fittings. That helped quite a bit. It's still not what I think "normal" should be, particularly in having to un-turn after a turn, but the fact that it changed after a lube does suggest something physical in the linkage and not the steering box or pump, since neither of those things were touched. Anyone have any other suggestions?

A co-worker of mine has a full shop with a lift and everything. Once he gets his 50's Chevy truck off the lift I can bring it over there for some closer inspection. It'll be way easier on a lift. (I hope)

Jack it up and place axle stands under the control arms close to the balljoints, knock the outer tie rods off, then see if each spindle moves back and forth easily,.you can put a long bar under the front tire and see if you have any play in wheel bearings or balljoints,.

phantom 309 wrote:

Jack it up and place axle stands under the control arms close to the balljoints,  knock the outer tie rods off, then see if each spindle moves back and forth easily,.you can put a long bar under the front tire and see if you have any play in wheel bearings or balljoints,.

Makes sense Nick. I wish I had another car handy to compare against "normal", but I suppose it's not likely both sides are broken the same way so side-to-side comparison should hopefully suffice.

You mentioned something in another thread about idler arm problems. Anything you've seen with the idler arm that might be to blame in the past?

I did what Nick and Fred suggested. Driver's side ball joints are noticeably stiffer than the passenger side. I'll replace them and see what happens.

You need to use the loner tool from Autozone, or similar place to remove, and install the lower BJ. Plan on getting it aligned after changing the BJs. The uppers must have the rivets drilled out. the new uppers will have bolts with it.

Did you check for all other joints since they are disconnected?

Have you turned the steering without the linkage connected to see if it is the box (engine on)?

Fred, I think I've got the bases covered. My buddy at work has all the tools and a great deal of experience with this stuff, so I have that covered. The upper control arms are new Moog and already have bolt-in joints, so that complication is already taken care of also.

I did check other things while I was there. The outer tie-rod ends are hard to move by hand, I am told that's normal if they're not very old (and they aren't) Inner ones are fine. With the engine running and the ends disconnected the steering feels as I would expect it to.

I'll replace the joints on that one side and see what happens. My buddy here says that normally the sides should feel the same, so we both think it may be the root cause. For $50 and a couple of hours of shop time it's worth figuring out.

I am pretty envious of you guys who have a small armada of these cars. Having a sample size of one makes it really hard to figure out what normal is.

loosen the nuts off the ball joints,.... its cheaper,..

I thought about that (as a test) but I think I'll just replace it.

lamune wrote:

I thought about that (as a test) but I think I'll just replace it.

It was not meant as a flip remark,.

too often guys will install a baljjoint and over tighten the nuts like crazy binding the balljoint,.

So let me rephrase,.

loosen off the nuts,. whack the spindle hard with a hammer where the joint goes into the spindle to loosen it off,.and then retorque them,..it's a cost effective option,. If it doesn't help,. then replace the joint(s)

I hate throwing parts at a problem trying to fix something,. especially replacing good working parts,.

Good mechanics fix stuff,. other mechanics simply re-re,..

Ok, I thought that was a semi-joke.

I'm pretty much lined up to just replace it. I got a new one, I have the tools ready, I'm not going to sweat $25 and the opportunity to try out tools I haven't used before.

The theory makes sense though. When I get the car ready I want to try that and see if it would solve the issue or not. In looking at how the joint is constructed there seems to be some sort of (plastic?) material at the top where the ball meets the case. I suspect that may be damaged. If so a loosen, whack, and re-torque should not fix it. I'll let you know what happens.

well you do what you want,..

you're gonna anyway,..

phantom 309 wrote:

well you do what you want,..

you're gonna anyway,..

Nick's Law always applies!

I went ahead and checked the lower ball joint today.

I did give the thing a good whack, and it definitely loosened up. It still felt notchy though, so I invoked my rights under Nick's Law and replaced it anyway.

It definitely feels better now, but no miracles. The steering still feels weird. Maybe it's just me.

are you 100% sure the variable effort steering isn't messed up ?

No, but I'm sure it's not anything on the pump side. If I pull the VES fuse, the steering overall feels more boosted, but basically the same.

lamune wrote:

The steering still feels weird. Maybe it's just me.

Maybe it's not me?

I had a second opinion. Quote- "Yeah, it doesn't want to finish straightening itself out."

One new theory is that maybe the ALC is making the back too high and sucking up my caster. Second theory is that the suspension components are all still pretty new and need more miles to loosen up.

""One new theory is that maybe the ALC is making the back too high and sucking up my caster.""

You can feel safe discarding that theory.

The ALC does not change the caster to any great amount. In fact it should maintain the caster, because it does not allow the car to lift above a certain height in the rear, as well as not letting it droop. Drooping would give it more caster.

Yeah, I didn't measure ride height, and I probably should/will just to see. But it does mean that if I deflate the shocks and let it sag, I could see if some increased caster negates the steering issue or not.

The amount of caster change will be insignificant, and will not affect the steering to any noticeable degree. You need a lot of caster change to make any noticeable difference. Probably 1/2 degree to even notice it.

Another possibility, the idler arm is too tight,

phantom 309 wrote:

Another possibility, the idler arm is too tight,

I have the Moog K6187T on there now. It could be hanging up. Can that be loosened by hitting it with a hammer if necessary?

I do not think the idler arm can be "too tight". The taper fits the cross link, and the bolts go to the frame...there is no adjustment.

Fred, anything is adjustable if you hit it hard enough

That type of adjustment does not improve handling.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

I do not think the idler arm can be "too tight". The taper fits the cross link, and the bolts go to the frame...there is no adjustment.

take an idler arm put it in a vice and rotate it,. see what it does

I guess I'm resurrecting this dead thread- I did do some investigation on a lift to try and see if I could find anything binding or otherwise weird that may have been causing my non-centering steering issue but didn't find anything obvious and basically have just been living with it.

Today I figured I'd give Fred's suggestion of moving .030" of shims from front to back on the upper arm a shot, and that's honestly the only thing that's made any significant difference.

It still seems like the steering isn't quite right, but it's definitely far less annoying now. Thanks Fred!

Also one of the 1/4" shims fell off the front post on the passenger side and I have no idea where it went off to. I have a set on hand, but if anyone sees it please let me know. I hate having lost parts and tools vanish into the car.

a. It is probably half way between the last place you drove to, and where you had it go missing.

b. All things fall at right angles, so it is probably 20 ft from the car.

c. If you get a magnet on a stick, you may be able to coax it out from its hiding place.

Thanks again Fred. I'll try a smaller magnet and see if I can't coax that thing out of wherever it's hiding. I don't think it went too far.

It continues to surprise me how that a relatively large car with a relatively small motor can be so cramped to work on at times.

You should have a 454 in there.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

You should have a 454 in there.

I can't quite wrap my head around what it must be like to work around that big block.

Errant shim located and retrieved with the HF inspection camera. Of course it just fell straight down but was impossible to see.

if your looking to replace the rag joint, Flaming River sells a rag joint replacement. 3/4" double d on one end and bolts to steering column on other. Don't need to use Jeep column

I would not take the wagon over 100 MPH consistently unless I converted to a full Hotchkiss type "auto cross" suspension with urethane bushings, front and rear sway bars, four piston calipers front and rear and and of course rear disk brakes. you would then have improved control arms front and back with adjustability etc. Then you would want to re-level the car so it was not tail high but more level front to back and maybe a slight amount tail low. And of course the correct tires and rims would be important. I have Impala SS rims on my car and Firestone low profile tires. I have a wagon with some issue but I am driving at 45 MPH about 30 miles a day at this time. I just do not think it would be fun at those speeds really. Even if our Governor Andrew Cuomo was to allow it.
Regards,
Shrimp

I question why you would lower the rear to make it nose high. That would make the car tend to lift the front at speed. A slight tail high stance would aid the car aerodynamically, possibly even giving you some down force to aid traction. Putting an airdam on that is closer to the ground will also help with traction, keeping air out from under the car, reducing lift. There are pros and cons to all modifications, and you need to tailor your driving techniques to your car's purpose.

Having the correct speed rated tires is the most important single item for high speed driving. The rims that come stock are sufficiently strong for 160mph +.

Depending on what you are doing over 100mph will determine if you need a more robust suspension. Straight line, and slight curves should not be a problem with the stock suspension, as long as it is not worn out. I would not have any issues taking my stock suspension car over 100mph on any relatively straight road. If I were road racing, I would do some modifications. The brakes will stop the car from relatively high speeds, but you must take into consideration the car, and what its capabilities are. Bigger disk brakes would be a good addition, and disks in the rear is also a good upgrade. There are some other upgrades that you should consider, such as hydroboost assist. The rear brakes are proportioned to a lower level than the fronts. For a lot of high speed driving, where you need to slow for turns, a much larger front rotor assembly is advisable to avoid overheating the brakes, and sheer overall braking performance. Adding 4 piston calipers to the stock brakes is not enough, if you are going to play Autobahn. On the other hand, there are a lot of drag cars that do not have front brakes.

You should not need to adjust the suspension arms once the toe, caster, and camber are set in the front, and as long as the rear tracks true behind the front, you should be good to go.

Forgive me if I hit what has already been said.

RM Buick steering can be made quite good and precise.

I just got back from a ride that was a dream for ease and handling for a 5K# car.

Rebuilt gears are, in general, horrible quality and you rarely get any of the right parts for the application, and will almost never get what you want with a special. Been there, done that.

You have to get rid of the variable assist if you have it.

Lee power steering was the only one I could find that would do a really good rebuild with perfect valve balancing and options for ratio and torsion bar.

I went with 30 inch pound bar, 14 to 1 fixed ratio, standard pressure blueprint rebuilt pump. Works very well for the feel I like.

3.5 degrees caster is not enough and most of the wagons probably won't get past that or even too it without excessive spacer thickness.

It is a really tough frame pull to twist the mount for more caster due to it's construction, and shops won't guarantee a result and the engine has to be out besides. Most will want to cut off the mount and reweld it back on in a different position.

I sectioned and modified the upper control arms to do it instead. Took about 10 hours total to do both sides.

I am now running 6 degrees, which feels very good. With stock height, no noticeable bump steer, no mid sharp turn effort change like it had at lower caster, better wheel return and centering.

I like just a touch, like 1/8 degree positive, caster for stability.

You won't get really good steering response unless you address the built in understeer in the Buicks. A rear sway bar will help a bunch with that. I have a Crown Vic bar in mine and it could use even a bigger one, I think. Tire pressure will also help a lot. Higher front, lower rear pressures will reduce understeer. I run 34 front 29 or 30 rear.

Once you get it driving better, or even before, and with tight front end parts, ditch the steering damper to get you center feel back and more road input.

Don't ignore the rear arms and track bar bushings. If they are sloppy or the arms bent, it can make the car feel really squirmy.