Barely made it home in Big Red....again...SOLVED, or so I thought ARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!

Wasn't sure where to post this one as we don't have a problems/maint section so apologies if I put it in the wrong section.
Cross posted on the 'other' forum as well.


Today I drove my 91 L03 OCC three times.
6:30 this morning to drop my son at school, 3:30 in the PM to go get him and it ran very well.
Around 4:30PM I got in to make a Home Depot run and decided to run by the beach and see how the surf looked on the way.

About 2 miles from home all of a sudden there was power loss and the engine surged. tach was up and down and it felt like it wanted to stall. I figured quickly to turn it around and head home. I turned down a dead end street to make a U-ie and it stalled. It would start but not idle.

So I start it in N and rev it up and if I kept it over 2000 it would run but not steady. I dropped it into gear and prayed all the way home.
Manual shifting to keep the RPM up and I made it.

Pull in the driveway and now she idled fine (driveway slight uphill so nose was now up). Put it in gear and she didn't stall. Backed out and she stalled. Started it up and pulled it back in, got my son's bike and rode the 1/2 mile to Home Depot in the rain for the item I needed.

I'm thinking it's the darn fuel pump as it takes awhile to start up.

I did smell something funny under the hood, like a burnt clutch plate, but if the tranny were going, it would idle just fine...

Any other ideas? thanks

How much fuel in tank?
Flasheroo

Smell under hood probably from engine running very lean then normal then back to very lean.
Okay Nick tell me if i am close cause me thinks its a fuel pick up line in the tank.
Jim aka Flasheroo

well if I can believe the gauge, it says 3/4 so that's about half. when I run low it'll stall going around corners. All my TBI wagons are like that.

Sounds like fuel pump to me... similar to when the pump went on my 92...

Jason.


Hey, 300 posts!

sounds like f/pmp years back ,my 91 kinda coughed when i was down the street from my house, backed off the gas and things caught up eng wise goosed it, yeah pmp was going.. next day no start,

I concur, it acts just like my 92 did when it's fuel pump was dying.

I think its homesick. But that's just MY opinion.

I am having a very similar problem. Mine will run fine when in open loop. When it goes into closed loop and I stop at a light, it will go rich, and stumble when trying to accelerate. Once I get it running, it will smooth out, and run fine, until I have to stop at a light again or go into a store for a few minutes. I just replaced my fuel pump with a new AC Delco. It had the same problem before I replaced the pump as well.

If it was the fuel pump, it would not run properly at the higher RPMs, and it would not idle properly. When the fuel pump is not making enough pressure, the idle will swoop up and down from about 500-1200 rpm. This is also indicative of a burst hose from the pump to the fuel sender assembly.

My friendly mechanic put it on a computer, and found it is going rich, and the idle pintle is running a high count.

I tried replacing the O2 and got no results. I rebuilt the fuel pressure regulator as well and put a new fuel filter on it. I also replaced the distributor, and my mechanic even swapped out the computer. I have replaced almost every sensor on the car, except the IAT, and am going to try the coil, and the TBI in that order. I am going to check the engine grounds as well. I may even look at the timing, to see if it is steady. This has been going on for about 4 months, so I feel your pain.

well it's nice today and I'm at work, supposed to rain all day tomorrow when I'm not

The PITA of it is, I just had the tank out of this car 6weeks ago as I replaced the leaking tank. I SHOULD have left the FP that was in the tank already as it has 104k on it, vs. I don't know how many miles. Instead I put the one from the leaky tank in the new tank....grunmble grumble.

Will go buy a new fuel filter, etc tonight on the way home. Fun times under the car in the rain tomorrow.

I'm getting good at dropping wagon tanks! This will be the third time this year!

..................

phantom 309 wrote:

Fred Kiehl wrote:

. I have replaced almost every sensor on the car, except the IAT, .

iac??
nick

IAT = Incoming Air Temperature also known as Manifold Air Temperature
It is located in the airbox above the TBI.

.........

Okay, I'm taking my thread back you two.

New fuel filter and pump are in the car and that's NOT the problem. still doing the surging from almost stall to 2000 rpm then back again. Pulled the airbox off and there is plenty of gas getting squirted into the motor. If I open the throttle up, she runs steady, but that's with no load on it.

Coil maybe? got one in the garage somewhere....going to look for it.

........

I would be looking closely at the distributor and timing.

popped the cap and rotor and they were in sad shape, but that's not problem either as new Delco parts are now in place. Can't be the wires or plugs as when it does go, it runs strong till it dies back again....... still didn't find the coil in my garage

what else could cause the surging?????

phantom 309 wrote:

........

Nick, thanks for the heads up on the IAC. It sounds like that may have something to do with it. It's pouring out now so I'm done for the day
It'll have to wait 'til tomorrow after work

Got off at 5 today and it didn't rain!!! woooo!
I started pulled good parts off of Ruby to trouble shoot.

1. TPS - bzzzt no difference
2. IAC - bzzzt - learned you don't want to over torque when screwing back in. (crap they are like 40 bucks! Had to tap out the thread with a hammer and screwdriver.....thank goodness I cleaned the threads before I re-installed. Now Ruby needs a part too - phoo
3. Changed the ECM - bzzzt

Checked all vacuum lines and didn't see anything.

Found if I kept the throttle open, she wouldn't surge and after a couple mins the SES light lit up.
Off to find the thread on how to retrieve the codes and get my pad o paper handy to count the lights.

Well it's throwing code 44 02 sensor. hmmm,

might be 1,4 or 7. tbi's don't have a MAF....do they? Darkness draws today's trouble shooting to a close. When the wife comes home I'll go get some dry gas, although I can't imagine that's it.

CODE 44

Trouble Code 44 indicates that the O2 sensor is showing a persistently high exhaust oxygen content (lean), despite the efforts of the ECM to increase injector on-time (thus increasing fuel delivered). Integrator and BLM numbers may indicate > 128 by a substantial margin.

The conditions for setting this code are:

no Code 33 or Code 34 (MAF Error) present, and
the O2 sensor voltage remains below 250 mVolts, and
the ECM is in Closed Loop control, and
the above conditions exist for more than 50 seconds.

Typical causes for this code include:

1) O2 sensor defective or lead shorted
2) Lean injectors (dirty or blocked)
3) Water in fuel
4) Exhaust leaks upstream of O2 sensor
5) Fuel pressure or volume too low
6) MAF sensor reading lower airflow than is actually present
7) Vacuum leaks
Incorrect or poorly calibrated PROM

Quote :

persistently high exhaust oxygen content (lean), despite the efforts of the ECM to increase injector on-time (thus increasing fuel delivered)

I'll go with...

fuel pump bad (see number 5)

negative, I swapped the fuel pump yesterday morning for one that was working

#7

nick

I have had the same problem almost to a T. My O2 was showing max rich, and the IAC was completely closed with a count of 116. I just cleaned and reassembled the ground at the thermostat, and it has made a major difference in the way the car runs. No more stalling at lights, and it idles perfectly. TRY CLEANING THE GROUND. Maybe my gas mileage will improve too. The signals being way off, is indicative of a non existant ground, and a number of the sensors ground through the ECM (the ground at the thermostat is the ECM ground). The sensors are finding a ground through some other source, which gives strange readings to the ECM. In the case of no ground a potentiomenter will not function properly, and you will get a screwed up signal too.

Well I took Fred K.'s advice (cheap and easy......bzzt didn't help).
unplugged the O2 sensor and it seems okay. (after all it is reporting the lean condition as it most likely should).
Dropped 70 bucks on a ICM or whatever it's called in the bottom of the distributor to no avail (at least I got lots of new parts in the distro now).

Bought a can of dry gas, although if the tank of gas was bad I would have assumed it would have run like crap from the get go as water is heavier.

I mixed the dry gas with 3 gals (had about 7 or 8 in there and the can said 8 to 25 gallons) and dumped it in the tank.

I started it up and it ran sort of worse as it kept stalling instead of surging. so I figured I'd run the rpms up and let the 'fresh' gas work into the mix.
Well I guess when you disconnect the battery it resets the climate control as it counts down from 30 (has the upgraded control). Imagine my surprise when it kicked on and BLEW COLD AIR. Really cold R-12 type stuff!!!!

the AC quit working over a month ago.....what gives. I know think I have some electrical demons that need to be exercised. Anyone know a good exorcist?

Sorry it did not work for you, It worked like a champ for me. It took a couple starts and run up to temp drives, and all the symptoms departed.

Yes the AC resets when you disconnect the battery. FWIW, the AC compressor clutch grounds at the same place as the ECM (at the thermostat G103).

Sprocket wrote:

I know think I have some electrical demons that need to be exercised.

PS.
So you are going to exercise your electrical demons. That should be interesting to see. Post some pics sparks and all.

Fred Kiehl wrote:

Sorry it did not work for you, It worked like a champ for me. It took a couple starts and run up to temp drives, and all the symptoms departed.

Yes the AC resets when you disconnect the battery. FWIW, the AC compressor clutch grounds at the same place as the ECM (at the thermostat G103).

well then maybe there is hope. I started a couple of times, but it kept stalling before it got to temp. Tomorrow, I'll let it run for a bit and see what happens....

Mine showed immediate improvement in the idle, and running. It coughed a couple of times after idling, or stopping at a light. Then the third time it ran flawlessly. Yours does not sound like the same response. You may have another issue with ground. I would check all of the grounds, and the wires to them. The ECM uses the ground for pin D6 and D1 (tan wire, and tan/white wire). These should be on one of the lugs at the thermostat ground (G103). Check to be sure that the ECM wires are making contact with the lug at the G103 ground. They ususally have a little bare wire showing for you touch with a meter lead.

So here is the latest from the front lines...Yeah at at war with my car and I'm going to win this battle!!! It's now become a quest, a challenge, an odyssey....

Yesterday, nothing got done as I worked until after 8PM, came home and had had several cocktails. Today I got home at a reasonable time and had an hour to mess with it.

Wed, I bought some dry gas and mixed it with 3 gal of fresh fuel and dumped it in. figure there is about 8-9 gal in the tank now. Once that was in it seemed to run WORSE. TOday it won't stay running by itself at all. it just dies.

If I get it going and play with the throttle, I can keep it going, but it won't idle. Here is what I noticed under the hood while playing with it.

1. If I spray starting fluid in the TB it starts right up and idles until that is spent so I think I can assume there is good quality spark right?

2. Once the ether burns out, it wants to stall unless you give it some throttle.

3. If I hold the throttle open, the gas sprays hard at first from the injecotrs then peters off so I have to close the butterflies and let the motor 'catch up' then give it gass again.

#3 seems pretty important to me.

WHy is the fuel flow dropping off? Is it the ECM cutting it down or am I losing pressure?
I can't imagine it's the fuel pump as I have had two different ones in there and they act the same.

Could it be a fuel pressure regulator? EGR valve?

I inspected all vacuum lines and everything is connected propberly and no soft rubbers brats seem compromised....


I'm tempted to spend my day off tomorrow changing out the AC compressor on RUby and swapping the plate back over there.....I need a DD!!!

Went to the boneyard today and got an IAC from a 95K caprice for Ruby, so that's taken care of. $6 vs $70 from the parts dealer. I'm happy with that.

Didn't do any work other than putting the IAC back into Ruby and moving her so I could get my Austin Healey out of the garage.

Started the OCC a couple of times. It won't even idle now I really get the vibe the computer is getting some signals that is shutting it down.

The IAC is only connected to the computer. If you can get a garage with a scanner to check it, you may find out what the actual inputs from the sensors are, as well as the outputs from the ECM to the IAC.

something to think about

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_problems_damage.html

I thought about a fuel issue.

I bought some dry gas/carb cleaner stuff and dumped it in. Now I can't get the mofo to start without spraying ether down the TB!!!!

I got aldl software working but can't keep the motor running. Man this is just really got me annoyed!!!! I should have gone with plan A and worked on replacing Ruby's AC compressor and flipping the tags back, but that feels like quitting.siiiiigh.

gonna eat some lunch and paint a door for my kitchen then screw around with it some more.

Something I learned from Fred K is to pull the serp belt off and fire up engine and this will eliminate any accessorys that might be causing a problem.Just dont let it idle too long and watch your engine temp.As I learned from Fred it can be something simple.
Take Care and be Happy
Flasheroo

Did a few things today but no dice.

1. This morning I couldn't get it started without ether.
2. Got some good advice on how to check the pickup coil out and it tests fine.
4. Also checked the primary coil for spark and used a timing light on several wires - all ok.
5. Took out the O2 and bench tested it. It tested good (on the upside I got to play with a plumbing torch )
6. put 5 more gallons of fresh gas in the tank to dilute the dry gas stuff. (seem to help a little bit).

Bottom line, if I pump the throttle I can keep it going after a shot of starting fluid, bot it still won't idle.

I got a feeling now that it's something really stupid I'm missing here....

On the upside I did make progress back in my kitchen (painted a pocket door so it's ready to hang).

feel up the egr put your finger in the holes on the bottom and see if you can move the plunger while its still installed, if it seems to be up high then give it a rap with a hammer. if the base seems low and you can move it with your fingers(should come back down on its own) and theres no obnoxious hissing from a major vacuum leak my next move would be the fuel filter..unless i missed that you changed it. could also be the fuel pressure regulator bit the dust but that should cause flooding not starving. i don't see this being a spark issue. worst case it sucked in some intake gasket. should really get a vacuum gauge and see how many inches its pulling and what it does when revving etc.

I know you replaced the EGR valve, but it could be stuck open, or the wrong kind. Try removing the EGR valve and blocking the port. It is a shot in the dark, but nothing else seems to be working.

is it insured??

Nick

phantom 309 wrote:

is it insured??

Nick

No comprehensive considering book value

On a positive note, I've managed to prevent fuel from reaching the engine completely now.
I rebuilt the FPR and a few things happened.

1. I did not bleed the system and when I cracked the fuel system there was no pressure loss (hmmmm interesting).
2. Rebuild of FPR uneventful, but I have a much better grasp of TBI systems now .
3. Put it all back together, only to take it apart again, when I realized no fuel was getting there (a BREAKTHROUGH!

4. pulled the fuel filter (had pressure!!!) and blew compressed air through both lines from the engine. (they blew clean and carried a good volume of air).
5. Cranked into a bucket at the fuel filter. 5-6 seconds netted about an ounce of fuel (Seemed kinda light, but no experience to compare too)

6. reconnected and got some fuel up at TB. took TBI base off, cleaned and clear
7. more cranking and no fuel.


I can't imagine that I have two bad fuel pumps, especially as I was getting good spray after the replacement.
Fuel pump relay gone bad???

I put a new pump in my 92, and it was defective. It is possible. The fuel flow sounds really weak.

There will be a little pressure in the fuel system even after the bleed-down.

You should check the pressure with a gauge when running, and after shutting it off, to be sure it is doing what it is supposed to do.

why I didn't work on the car all weekend. I have 20 hours into this floor and as you can see, it ain't done yet.



If you look into the laundry room you can see the vacuum pump for the AC repairs to Ruby that are waiting to happen.

I am not envying you at all.

I am going to remove the stud that is the ground for the ECM at the thermostat, and clean it, and where it screws into. When mine sits for about 10 minutes to 1 1/2 hours, it will stall and act strange for a few minutes, then it will run good again. I am also going to check the ECM ground on the back of the PS cylinder head. I think mine is running rich, because the gas mileage is not the greatest.

today's update:

tried to crank her up for the hell of it, of course it didn't start.
swapped the fuel pump relay from Ruby in with no change.
put Big Red's relay in Ruby and she fired right up.
decided to finish Ruby and throw in the towel for now. Accumulator local parts store sold me had two male adapters vs. the needed one male one female.....poo have to take it back

Back to no start Red.....
tested voltage at connector by rear bumper. 12V for 2 seconds as needed. middle pin had constant 9V while key is on.
put 12V right onto right pin and ground. pump runs
run pump for a good 45 seconds or so and hook the connector back up.
turn it over no fuel at injecotrs

started getting dark, so I wrapped it up. guess I'll pop the fuel filter and put 12V on the pump to see what type of volume I'm getting

I'm pretty annoyed at this point, it's two weeks now!!!

If you are not getting much fuel out of the filter, you may have a loose/cracked hose in the tank, or a leak in the internal tank tubing.

Stupid idea, but how 'bout removing the fuel filter and the fuel line from the rail and blow some air back to the filter? maybe a piece of rust or dirt got in there?

You said that you had fuel at the filter, but not at the TBI? Clogged fuel line is all I can think of........ but I've been up for 19 hours....

So last friday night I figured out that I wasn't getting any fuel. Lines blew clean, etc.
I realized on Monday that I most likely put a questionable pump in when I first started troubleshooting.

Well the pump itself is good, but a stupid 1.5 inch piece of rubber hose on the top of the pump, split open and 75% of the fuel was blowing back into the tank. I found this out after I dropped the tank (AGAIN) and tested it in a big coffee can.

So to recap, I had a bad FPR, and I put in a bad sending unit assembly.

Wow three weeks. I got way too much going on over here....

Sprocket wrote:

So last friday night I figured out that I wasn't getting any fuel. Lines blew clean, etc.
I realized on Monday that I most likely put a questionable pump in when I first started troubleshooting.

Well the pump itself is good, but a stupid 1.5 inch piece of rubber hose on the top of the pump, split open and 75% of the fuel was blowing back into the tank. I found this out after I dropped the tank (AGAIN) and tested it in a big coffee can.

So to recap, I had a bad FPR, and I put in a bad sending unit assembly.

Wow three weeks. I got way too much going on over here....

My 92 did the same thing. The split was difficult to see, and I almost missed seeing it. My fuel pump died about 3 weeks later. I was lucky with the 91, I caught it before it split.

So now I'm back to where I was three weeks ago. Damn this is frustrating.

Success Friday night, 45 min cruise around town, flooring it, etc. and all was fine. Yesterday I drove it last night to dinner, kind of stuttered when I started it after eating (was perfect on the way there). SES lit up and figured I check that today (code 44 lean exhaust again).

Was ok on the way to work this AM, and got worse the more I drove it after work. I was trying to run out the tank of fuel that's in there (only about 5 gal left).

Starting to think, it IS the original fuel pump going. Guess I need to fix the rubber hose on the other one and drop the $%^&*(% tank yet AGAIN.

Just really PO'ed right now and tired of dealing with it.

If you take note of my post prior to your last one, I had the pump go out 3 weeks after I fixed the hose. To top that, the new pump was no good and had to be replaced. I can feel your pain. It is enough to make you spit.


BTW mine still likes to "not run" on a hot start.