Planting the seed for wagonfest 2011 in FLINT MICHIGAN!

Friends, Canadians, wagon kooks.... Lend me your ears!

I like to think of myself as a solutions oriented person. I try not to be vocal about a problem unless I also have a solution. I'm not trying to step on any toes here, so hear me out.....

Fellow kooks,

Forgive me for speaking against tradition here, but without Fred and Kelly living in Waterloo NY - I really don't see any legit reason for "everybody" to go THERE anymore every year for the fest. I know this year was well planned before their unexpected relocation and so it only made sense to roll with it, and I have no doubt that it'll be GREAT and a great time will be had by all...... but in moving forward with future wagonfests, I struggle to see the justification for everyone traveling to a town where none of us live. There's an increasing annual deficiency in hotel room availability as we grow in strength and numbers and their ONLY fast food place - the taco bell - even closes at like 10 on a Saturday night.

Don't get me wrong, it's a cute town, and I love the old buildings of the downtown district, the houses on Fred's old street were absolutely killer, and the church festival was a great experience, - but I think that wagonfest is outgrowing the Waterloo venue - ESPECIALLY a Fredless/Kellyless one - both in it's ability to accommodate everyone's motel needs - and in it's ability to offer enough things to do to reasonably entertain the growing masses of CAR GUYS. (The demo derbys were AWESOME though!)

That all been said - my pitch to you - my solution = my hometown - FLINT, MICHIGAN!

I'm sure you guys have heard of the Woodward dream cruise in Detroit. Well, if you stay on Woodward and head north, it runs right through downtown Flint, MI and the road is made of red bricks. It was built that way in the 1910's or 20's and still is to this day. It's actually pretty damn cool, and so the name of that dreamcruise weekend up here is called "Back to the Bricks". Anyway, that same week is NUTS here in Flint with cars cars and more cars of ALL kinds - cruising every night - just like Woodward, and almost everybody that's done both swear that the Flint scene is much, much better.

Gentlemen, I'd like to host wagonfest 2011 that same weekend as Flint's "back to the bricks" and I PROMISE you that - if there's a single ounce of octane in your blood - you will NOT be sorry you came. You can cruise both Flint and Detroit in the same night - and do it every night that week if you want. It is held the 3rd Saturday in August.

We have PLENTY of reasonable hotels. We have PLENTY of SAFE things to see and do. We have PLENTY for the wives to see and do too. We have PLENTY of EVERYTHING and for those who may want to fly in and mooch rides for the weekend to share the experience - it's less than TWO miles from my front door to the airport lobby. I'll even pick you up and drop you off anytime day or night. I do it a LOT actually. You call me when you've landed and are taxi-ing - and I will literally be waiting for you at the exit before you can get off the plane.

We even still have a KILLER "double-feature" style drive-in movie theatre that I'd absolutely LOVE to invade and take over with tens of wagons. For real - TWO screens each playing TWO current movies, bring your own food and drinks - watch either screen you want at any time - it's only like $6 a person.... and it's in a great area. We call this a "sore peter" deal because you CAN NOT BEAT IT! Fair warning though - the first movie is almost always geared towards the kids - but it's still ALWAYS fun to wind the clocks back to the days of the drive-in and kick it OLD SCHOOL! I mean for real - how bitchin would it be to be a part of rolling into a DRIVE IN movie theatre like FIFTY deep!

If you want to bring a camper - we have plenty of camping nearby too. Hell I wouldn't care if you parked your rigs in my yard for that matter. I have a huge bonfire pit that would be great for the nightly "tailgating" for all who show up throughout that whole week - and I defy you to find a better marshmallow roaster than my wife.

Worried about bringing your kids and having them be bored? Don't. Right now mine are 9, 8, 6, and 4 - 2 boys and 2 girls - so TRUST ME, we got kid stuff figured out around here.

So again - I love wagonfests. I love and appreciate everything that everyone who's ever been involved with them has ever done - and from the bottom of my heart I sincerely thank you now and forever ..... but I think that next year is a great opportunity to allow WF to accept it's natural growth without it's current limitations in an environment where there's alot more to see and do - and I think that coinciding wagonfest with the dreamcruise and bricks week / weekend is a move that allows exactly that. I'd think it even if I didn't live here. I just happen to, and I struggle with big mouthedness and wagon kookery - so it only made sense to me to speak up.

Call me crazy, but I'm seeing one HUGE - 4-5 day weekend of world class - jaw dropping car cruising, drive in movie theatres, bonfires at my place, and the ability to actually DO CAR STUFF that you can't do anywhere else in the country - and doing it all with a TONS of other members of this here barely functional wagon fambly.

So where the heck is Flint again? Well, I'm only 45-60 minutes north of both Detroit and Ann Arbor, I'm only 5 hours from Chicago, I'm 3ish from Cleveland, I'm like 8-9 from St Louis, I'm only 12-13 from Roanoke, VA and I'm only 12 from New England if you cut across Canada.

Again - Waterloo is a nice getaway and a relaxing environment, but I just see a growing number of problems that are only going to get needlessly worse as this event gains in numbers if we stay there - and I see what I think is a great solution that every one of us as car guys would LOVE to be a part of. If Fred and Kelly hadn't moved away from Waterloo, I'd have never brought up moving the event from Waterloo.

Anyway, that's my thoughts and my offer. Please feel free to ask any questions, share any comments, and voice any concerns.

Peace, love, horsepower,

John

PS, I'm also not against changing the name of the event if the consensus deems it appropriate. Fred and Kelly will forever be the King and Queen of Wagonfest, so if it's thought that this should be called something else as long as it's held anywhere else, I can see that too. Just something to think about anyway.

I agree that the reason for hosting WagonFest in Waterloo is gone. Thus having the event elsewhere in future years makes sense. I've heard several alternate locations suggested over the last several months as well. Just about anywhere 'east of the Misssissippi' would be doable for me as it's become my planned summer vacation.

Obviously I want to hear what Fred and Kelly have to say about it, after all WagonFest is theirs even though they won't be able to join us this year. Once the dust has settled from WF10 it will be time to start thinking hard about where WF11 will be held.

I'll be honest. I can't do anything more than a 6-7 hour drive. So MI would be out of the question for me. Granted my voice is, i'm sure a minority. But just throwing it out there.

I think it's a great idea. It's come up several times in conversation as to what the long term prospects for the 'fest will be w/o Fred & Kelly in Waterloo. Without them what are we left with - the ECIRS series in Rochester? Not enough to ensure that the event will survive beyond 2011. There needs to be persons or events that justify Wagonfest's existence, missing those, it's only a matter of time before people lose interest and the event fades away. While the travel time will be longer for many of us, myself included, I agree the potential gains are well worth the extra drive. Everything I've ever heard about the cruise scene in that area echoes what John has said. If you are a car person, then it is the place to be and would certainly help ensure the continued re-scheduling of the event. Thanks to John for suggesting this. Count me in to make the additional effort to get there.

- J

I don't know if I'd be able to make it, but sounds like it would be fun times in Flint.

Flint MI? Man...that is good for the Canada guys, but a haul for us down here. I would do it though since I can stop with family @ the halfway point It sounds like it would be a fun time. I would love to meet JaySS in person too...

I got poo'd for having a wagon gathering in Louisville, KY a few years ago...but ya know what? We had a good crowd with folks from WI, MI, MO, IL, TN, WV, IN....they will come as long as it is well planned IMO.

Good idea Bewbz.

DBeaSSt wrote:

I agree that the reason for hosting WagonFest in Waterloo is gone. Thus having the event elsewhere in future years makes sense. I've heard several alternate locations suggested over the last several months as well. Just about anywhere 'east of the Misssissippi' would be doable for me as it's become my planned summer vacation.

Obviously I want to hear what Fred and Kelly have to say about it, after all WagonFest is theirs even though they won't be able to join us this year. Once the dust has settled from WF10 it will be time to start thinking hard about where WF11 will be held.

Agreed. If only out of respect for all they have done for us, their blessing should a accompany any location changes, but if I know Fred & Kelly at all, I believe that they would be thrilled that the legacy of their past efforts would live on and allow them the opportunity to return to the event they started. Perhaps a planned discussion of the future location is in order this year. Nothing too formal, but a few minutes Saturday evening or Sunday morning set aside for a get together for those interested to discuss. An additional line in the voting slip may help to see where the group stands on the issue.

And BTW - Before this degenerates into a free for all of whining and sand-where-it-shouldn't-be, those who haven't attended at least one Wagonfest and the other hanger-ons that still can't locate their spare tirewell with a flashlight and a map can step away from the keyboard right now.

Carry on.

- J

P.S. - Chris, we'll have to make an extra effort to meet up next month - I didn't even know you were there last year or I would have taken the time to say hi.

My 2 cents: keep it somewhat central. Map all the guys that go and get a central point. It can rotate but keep it central to the majority. It makes sense and is best for attendance. I travel 8 hours to Waterloo which is fine. I live in the northeast corner of the US, I wouldn't expect it to be held way up here, but someplace where it is best for the most.

I've been to 46 states, I would go to Flint MI, only if Gary Indiana was the other choice. John, Flint is a dying, blighted, crime infested city. Statistics say that, you know that! It is the 4th most dangerous city of 369 US cities. Google "Flint Michigan crime"---see what you get. Not a good choice.

Joel, Mike and a few others are trying to keep this going this year and are working very hard. I know you are not intentionally doing; but this topic, at this time is undermining their work!

Tom C.

silverfox103 wrote:

My 2 cents: keep it somewhat central. Map all the guys that go and get a central point. It can rotate but keep it central to the majority. It makes sense and is best for attendance. I travel 8 hours to Waterloo which is fine. I live in the northeast corner of the US, I wouldn't expect it to be held way up here, but someplace where it is best for the most.

I've been to 46 states, I would go to Flint MI, only if Gary Indiana was the other choice. John, Flint is a dying, blighted, crime infested city. Statistics say that, you know that! It is the 4th most dangerous city of 369 US cities. Google "Flint Michigan crime"---see what you get. Not a good choice.

Joel, Mike and a few others are trying to keep this going this year and are working very hard. I know you are not intentionally doing; but this topic, at this time is undermining their work!

Tom C.

Tom, Tom, Tom...... Tom.

I DO know what the stats tell the rest of the country. I also know that while my mailing address is "Flint", I do not live anywhere near such issues and I certainly would NEVER entertain the idea of compromising the safety of ANY of you. The downtown area is experiencing a very exciting rebirth of businesses and restaraunts, and it's quickly becomming more of a college town as the city reinvents itself. It's not a perfect zipcode, but the downtown area is good to go. I left my wagon down there for almost a week - by itself in an empty parking lot without incident. I've also BEEN THERE during the bricks events, with my family and we had nothin but a great time. The event stretches WELL out of the downtown area and I can promise you that if you ever DID feel unsafe, alls you'd have to do is cruise to a different parking lot. You wouldn't need to though.

If you base your travels solely on crime stats, I can't blame you for having concerns and wanting to avoid the perception of trouble - but I'd also like to point out that St Louis is also a leading crime city in the entire country based on those same stats - and despite those numbers - it's also been the home to the MOST successful ISSCA Nationals events ever held. Not once, Tom - TWICE. So much so, that ISSCA is doing everything it can to return to THAT horrible, horrible place as soon as it possible! You know how many incident's there've been there? ZERO, Tom.

Waterloo wasn't selected from a crime statistic. It was the home of the great people who founded the event. That's it. Period. Fred and Kelly were the initial draw to Waterloo and they are no longer there. They relocated. WF now also needs to relocate. Period.

I'm not inviting you guys to a palace in a gated community, but please know that I sure as hell wouldn't invite you to the ghetto either. My home backs up to a 12 acre field that then backs up to woods - and I've had both deer and coyote in my backyard over the years. I've had MANY forum members come to my home over the years and every one of them has commented on how much Flint well exceeded their expectations, and how rural it actually is.

I'd also contend that "mapping out all the guys that go and picking a central point" as a basis for relocation is NOT effective way to approach the situation. It's already NOT in a central location. There's already a LOT of people who won't ever go because of how far east it is. That's probably the least logical way to ensure growth and long term viability.

If you're going to use google to base your decision, don't forget to inlude www.backtothebricks.org in your research - and see how many cars we had here last year. I think it was over 25,000.

And another thing - this topic is NOT undermining anybody's work for this years fest. This years fest is a repeat performance of every other year and everybody knows exactly what to expect. Whoever WAS going to go still is and whoever would't have showed up anyway still isn't gonna - and it damn sure isn't because I'm trying to talk about future fests. Bringing it up now only makes sense so that it can be discussed AT this years fest with at least SOME level of forethought.

This is not (and should not be) the forum for putting down other cities, let's drop it right now.

We do need to focus on making WF10 as successful as possible while also keeping an eye towards future events. Don't let this thread degenerate into something other than a place to make suggestions about future events. John has posted what a lot of us were thinking and we need to keep this open and positive.

'nuff sed, let's move on. I don't like using the 'lock' button.....

Thanks Mike. Again, I never meant for this to have ANY negative impact on this years Fest. That's the LAST thing that I'd want.

Tom... Seriously? ugh.

I think it's a GREAT idea, John! I've always wanted to be part of that cruise and this would be one HELL of a way to accomplish that!

It's a long-assed drive, but hopefully by then, Bella will be ok being a DVD zombie for 13 hours.

I was told not to respond but I will anyways. Michigan would be cool and filling a drive in with wagons would be awesome

Crazy idea, but what if you make wagon festival around the same time as the Woodward Cruise? Is Flint far enough removed that you could still find hotel rooms, and yet experience the AMAZING EXPERIENCE of the Woodward Dream Cruise?

My father took me to the Cruise about 10 years ago and it was PHENOMENAL. Just amazing. If it was a double-feature between the wagonfest and the Woodward Dream Cruise, it will be WORTH the drive, period.

JaySS wrote:

[.

And BTW - Before this degenerates into a free for all of whining and sand-where-it-shouldn't-be, those who haven't attended at least one Wagonfest and the other hanger-ons that still can't locate their spare tirewell with a flashlight and a map can step away from the keyboard right now.

Carry on.

- J.

well i was gonna say somethings,. along the lines of "do we need to carry a firearm?"
(stay away from my wagon!!! ,.. )
but i can't even find the flashlight,and the car only has a whole lot of expandable foam where the spare tires was,..
So,. i'll be quiet,.cept i wanna mention just how F,ing rough the roads are around flint.
Nick

hoping to go to wf2011 somewhere south where the ocean is[img][/img]

Works for me!

I do have a suggestion for the "roaming fest", though... regardless of location:

We should keep it on the same date as the past wagonfests (last weekend in July). This date has worked in the past and is easy to remember. IIRC there was quite a bit of effort to get a date that worked for most folks. I think if we swing the date around it'll become very difficult to keep the core group together, assuming everyone wants to and is able to travel to different locations each year.

I have made it to all but last year's 'fest, and it is one of the few weekends of the summer that I typically have free.

JM2C...

^^ Yes please...I already have it marked for next year.

Keeping the same date may be well and good for a location other than the one suggested in this thread, but in order to time it with the cruise, the date needs to change. I think more than a YEAR'S notice should be plenny o' time to make plans for it though...

But I do hear ya. Maybe when it's Fest2K12 Nashua, NH, it can be the last weekend in July.

toomanytoyz wrote:

Keeping the same date may be well and good for a location other than the one suggested in this thread, but in order to time it with the cruise, the date needs to change. I think more than a YEAR'S notice should be plenny o' time to make plans for it though...

But I do hear ya. Maybe when it's Fest2K12 Nashua, NH, it can be the last weekend in July.

Understood - but in an effort to keep the event wagon-centric, I think the date should stay the same. There's always a car show somewhere that could be piggy-backed to wagonfest, but "other" car shows really don't have much to do with B-wagons.

Plus I already have two conflicting events for the 3rd week in August, so I can't go. Yeah, I know... sour grapes.

I'm all for a rotating location. I'm involved with a group that has a standing get toether every year on Memorial Day weekend. I"ve been attending it for over 20 years and moves around the US so people in different regions can experience it.

One thing this event does is have someone host it two years in a row (300-400 people a year attend) but that's mostly to cover logistice (food, lodging, etc).

Festers (not your uncle) are a more dynamic bunch and it's a smaller group. I know personally, that for the past 3 fests, I have looked from far away wishing I could make it but time/distance issues prevent.

This year, I spending most of my vacation time to make it. It's a personal choice as I want the experience of meeting alot of you and sharing ideas about what we can do with the cars. That said, I doubt my VERY understanding other half will probably want to go somewhere different for vacation next year.

By moving it around every year it opens up the event to people who otherwise wouldn't get to come.
Additionally, it'd be something different every year as well as you get to see a different area of the country.

I'd love to see a south east one (there has been talk of it), but most people down here haven't been to the original so they don't know. I've had the pleasure of meeting Fred and listening to him describe the fun, I feel like I've sorta been there.

Right. I'm not pitching to be the new Fred AT ALL and I'm not saying that we should consider Flint the new home of the fest by ANY stretch of the imagination. I just thought it'd be REAL cool to have it here at least once and piggyback the Dreamcruise festivities, which is every night of that week.

People planning to make it their family's summer vacation can come DAYS early and check out other things - like Frankenmuth which is only like a half hour North. That whole town is cool and they also have the worlds largest Christmas store. It sounds lame till you're in it, then you're overwhelmed.

We have a huge outlet mall complex 20 minutes north with a restaraunt that serves Man VS Food sized portions. Hell if you REALLY want to see something cool - cruise up 75 about 3 hours and check out the Macinaw Bridge that connects the upper and lower peninsulas. It's the worlds largest suspension bridge and that whole town is a tourist hot spot and there is a TON of history there - like the original fort that settlers built to keep the indians out, etc. Just before you get to the bridge is the world's largest outdoor crucifix - simply called the cross in the woods. It's pretty neat. We go to mass there when we're camping up north ever summer.

South of here about an hour is Detroit and all that it has to offer - including the Woodward scene. Also south of here about an hour is Ann Arbor - if you're more into checking out college towns like UofM. About an hour west is Lansing - if you want to check out MSU or the state capital for any reason.

I just think having it here makes sense to try - not only because of the outstanding car scene it becomes with the cruising every night that week, but also because there's enough other things to do that people don't have to consider it just as a SATURDAY event.

Wagon Collector wrote:

Understood - but in an effort to keep the event wagon-centric, I think the date should stay the same. There's always a car show somewhere that could be piggy-backed to wagonfest, but "other" car shows really don't have much to do with B-wagons.

Plus I already have two conflicting events for the 3rd week in August, so I can't go. Yeah, I know... sour grapes.

So i guess i'll never attend another wagon fest then,. because the biggest truck show in eastern canada is always the third weekend in july,.(google fergus truck show) and its 30 mins away from me,.
and my biggest passion is for big trucks,.wagons come .....er....um... 3rd? after my diesel pickups,
Flint michigan? meh.lets have it in cleveland,.*yawn* or hows about grand valley!! a nice canadian trip for all youze yankees,. Lobster was good in NH.

Nick

You're sayin it wrong. Say it with me, Nick... "Lob-stah"

phantom 309 wrote:

So i guess i'll never attend another wagon fest then,. because the biggest truck show in eastern canada is always the third weekend in july,.(google fergus truck show)

Wow, now that looks like one hell of a show. Much different than the trucking show they have here in the states. I remember going with my old boss and it was nothing but a giant advertisement. Barely a truck anywhere aside from the ones in the parking lot.

Teaser pic from the 4th of July .......

I don't think I want to park next to that guy...

..yeah..and the guy with the red cap is selling drugs to that little girl. lol j/k

I LOVE me a drive in!

Bewber wrote:

Teaser pic from the 4th of July .......

Thats how I feel with this heat wave blowing thru New England atm....

I would love to see the East coast fest moved to somewhere in New England. Just my 2c...

jayoldschool wrote:

I would love to see the East coast fest moved to somewhere in New England. Just my 2c...

I like that idea. Maybe out on the Cape that would be cool.

5.5hrs, we're in!

So John, Breakfast at your house Sunday?

scoob8000 wrote:

5.5hrs, we're in!

So John, Breakfast at your house Sunday?

Sure, but just so you know, I cook naked. Even bacon.

scoob8000 wrote:

5.5hrs, we're in!

So John, Breakfast at your house Sunday?

Bring your own cereal, milk, and bowl.

Bewber wrote:

Sure, but just so you know, I cook naked. Even bacon.

just be thankful Adria don't let him cook anymore......

[quote="phantom 309"]

Wagon Collector wrote:

. because the biggest truck show in eastern canada is always the third weekend in july,.(google fergus truck show) and its 30 mins away from me,.
and my biggest passion is for big trucks,.wagons come .....er....um... 3rd? after my diesel pickups,


Nick

is that anything like the rodeo du camiones in Quebec? i want to see that, but i don't speak Quebecois!!!


i dont care where we have it, i would just hate to see the group split. some of the New Englan-dah's don't want to drive to flint.
I dont care myself...have wagon... will travel. i just need it to be in stone before January. flint is Definately a week-long worth of stuff to do. so i am game for almost anywhere (not crazy about crossing the Mississippi). but we need a consensus. we need the new festers, but we also need the regulars too. like Crovo, Joel, all the Mikes, and all the new englan-duhs !

a1awind wrote:

but we need a consensus. we need the new festers, but we also need the regulars too. like Crovo, Joel, all the Mikes, and all the new englan-duhs !

I agree. And I appreciate you taking us New Englan-duh's into consideration. It's not so much I don't want to have it in Flint, it more the length of the drive. Google maps says a little over 12 hours of driving. That's a lot for me and maybe others. I remember this topic was touched on at Fest and I don't mind new locations. But I think one thats an equal distance for most, if not as many as possible is best.

" But I think one that's an equal distance for most, if not as many as possible is best."

I think that makes it St. Louis.

All kidding aside. Where ever you make it, you'll pick up some new faces, and loose a few more. Last year we had 54 cars, this year 44. We lost a few.

I happen to live 40 miles away from Geneva NY. I'd have to consider many issues, (as do all of you) when distances increase beyond a half days drive. Time off from work... using valued vaction time... expenses. For some it will come as a blessing as it's finally closer to home for them to consider attending. It will be become out of range for others. The actuality of life is that there will never be an "ideal" place for everyone who'd like to go.

I'll go anywhere, I just couldn't make it this year. As long as I am part of the fest it doesn't matter where it is in my book. So Bewber i'm in for Michigan next year, and Crovo you got my support for NH the following year.

this whole idea of moving wagonfest has me conflicted,. after all these years, we know our way around the village of waterloo,. seneca falls,. and some of geneva,. i can drive around and meet up with folks at 4-5 different spots and we all know where they are,.holiday inn or microtel, easy to find,.macs connies, truck stop etc,. its almost like a tradition now,.
i don't worry about cruising off the beaten path anywhere, geneva is about as risque as it gets,.not so sure about flint,. i could see this played out,."oops i took a wrong turn ended somewhere different,.and now i,m at the cop shop after someone jacked the wagon",..i,m sure there are safe zones etc,. but will part of the wagonfest fees be going towards the armed security for the perimeter,..
we all know where the park is,. (just follow your nose)

Nick

Very well put Nick.

I was hesitant to reply on this topic until WF 10 was in the books.

I have to say from all comments,and pics (that are awesome) all the whos in waterloo still celebrated without Santa (Fred) and his great wife Kelly. I was honestly concerned this may be it for waterloo. I can't say I feel that way now.

So those of you who were there can really be proud of yourselves and I am not so sure Flint can offer the same family atmosophere.

Woodward is definitely something I want to experience,but like when I do the nascar races,thats my buddys and I , not Marge and children. I would be stuck to John,Pat and Nick like glue in Michigan,and I don't mind saying I would be outside my comfort zone.


Thats all,I love the wagons,and God willing I will be wherever it is held next year, Lorne.

Flint is doable for me, although closer would be nice. Wherever it is, I'll try to follow. I agree that Waterloo does seem like home to the fest.

There are enough "locals" that we could again do a WF in the Waterloo/Geneva area.

That said, there are tons of wagon guys down south, wagon guys in the midwest, and wherever a fest is done, folks will come. Do it well, and folks will come. I tried to keep WF10 simple and I think it paid off.

You did a great job Joel. Thank you.

The atmosphere of any event, good bad or otherwise, is the result of the attitudes of the people who attend and not the location they meet up at.

I tell you I'd love to go to "A" wagonfest....been drooling over the pics. I'd love to see one more central so the folks to the south and west could come. I can do a 4-day weekend, but from Austin to Geneva is two LONG days up and two LONG days back. Talking 1800 miles....each way. hard to swng that. Flint is still 1400 miles away from me.

Saint Louis is 882 miles from Austin. It's 840 miles from Geneva to St Louis. Hey halfway! That being said, it's as hot in Saint Louis in July as it is in Texas, and more humid, but it sure would be cool to see all the cars lined up under the Arch along the river.

Another thought is Tennessee. Nashville is 850 miles from me, and 820 miles from Geneva, and it could be a little cooler there in the hills and trees. I could make Nashville in one day...a long day, but one day, and it's a long single day's drive for most of the folks from the southeast and the northeast too. Lots of really pretty places around there.

That's my 2-cents folks.

-Mike

John:

Dispite all your good intentions, this discussion just seems wrong in so many ways. Events such as Wagonfest may have started out as an excuse for a bunch of like minded individuals getting together for a weekend but evolve into something much different. The main difference is tradition.

From the beginning, Wagonfest has always been a trek to Waterloo on the last weekend of July. The location and the date are part of the tradition. Even though I have not been able to attend the past two years for personal reasons, we still consider that weekend to be part of our summer plans. I do hope that is not going to change as I look forward to WF every year.

The other concern I have is that Wagonfest has always been Fred and Kelleys event. From what I can see, Joel and the others have done a remarkable job in picking up the flag and running with it. This year sounds like it was a lot of fun, but at the end of the day it is still Freds event. Lets wait and see how he wants to play it. They both have family in Waterloo and next year Wagonfest may become part of their vacation plans. We don't know. Don't really think its fair to re-organize their event until we know where they eventually end up or if Wagonfest will always be associated with Waterloo. Its their call.

On a practical note, it really doesn't matter where the event is held, or for that matter when it is held, you are going to lose some and gain some. There will always be conflicts in schedules and distance for some will always be an issue. Up until now, Wagonfest has been static, but if the concensus is that it move around to various venues then so be it.

Personally I tend to agree with Nick and Lorne. Upstate New York is an ideal location for this kind of event. I dispise large citys and go to great ends to avoid them whenever possible. I am certainly not going to want to go to one of them on my vacation let alone drive 14 hours with an RV hooked up to the back of my car to get there. I would certainly not feel comfortable setting up the RV within 50 miles of Flint, let alone any large industrial North American city.

Furthermore, to piggyback this event onto another automotive gathering would not only cheapen the experience, it would totally change the whole fabric of Wagonfest. It would no longer be Wagonfest, it would be just a bunch of wagon owners going to another car show together. "back to the bricks" is "back to the bricks" and Wagonfest is, well, Wagonfest.

Bill

Allright, ENOUGH ALREADY. Let me put it this way .....

First of all, I want to give a HUGE thank you to any and all of those who've been supportive of my event.

To the rest of you.....

I'm having a wagon-centric event next year during the Back to the Bricks and Woodward dream cruise weekend and it'll be in nearby Flint, MI next year. If you decide to come, I PROMISE you that you'll have the time of your life. If you decide not to come do to logistics or finances, that's weak but I understand. If you've already decided not to come because you're afraid of what you think you've heard about my area, stay home. Seriously, do yourself a favor. Lock yourself inside your house and just stay there inside your safe little cave. Not to pop your safety bubble, but I couldn't help but notice that (gasp) even Waterloo also had a police department, and I assume that it wasn't for looks.

Wanting to keep it in Waterloo for the the sake of being afraid to change is one thing, but I'm really getting sick and effin tired of people who've never been here running their mouth about Flint like they actually have a clue about how a weekend here would be. All Nick has ever done is pass through on his way to someplace else, yet Lorne commends him on his excellent point (that was a joke) that if you make a wrong turn you might get carjacked? Pardon my french canadian, but - How fucking stupid can you be. I left my wagon in an empty and unsecured DOWNTOWN Flint parking lot - by itself - for over a week last year without issue.

I've had a LOT of out of towners at my home and in my town over the years. Bill Crovo, Bill Fisher, Shane Cobb, Jimbeau, Noel Haro, and many others have come to my place and ALL have all made the same POSITIVE comment that "Holy Crap, this is NOT how I pictured it would be here at all - it's almost all nice neighborhoods around here!" Pat comes to my house regularly, as does Paul. Hell, last year they left a Porsche 928 sitting in my side drive for MONTHS without issue. Say it out loud - a PORSCHE sat in FLINT for MONTHS without issue.

I guess what's really getting to piss me off is that I'm tired of the blowhards and pussbags who have either never been here or would never drive "this far" to ANY town if their scared little life depended on it running their yap and bitching for the sake of bitching. I'm tired of sticking up for my town and my wild ass idea of having OUR carguy weekend be held at the same time and place as the WORLDS BIGGEST car guy weekend so that people could have the opportunity to do both if they WANT to.

As a car guy, I'm not going to apologize for thinking that other people that I've accused of also being car guys would think it'd be better to experience the worlds biggest rolling car show in person, for as late as they wanted - over a 60 minute follow-the-leader ride through the middle of effing nowhere for the sake of killing an hour since there just plain isn't shit else to do.

Some of you act like I'm trying to throw a wagonfest inside a bullethole ridden abandoned chop shop warehouse in the heart of the ghetto - and that's bullshit. By now - You guys damn well know me better than that and I damn well deserve better than that. Period.

Seriously Bill, your line about not coming within 50 miles of here just screams of ignorance. There are MANY places to set up a camper that you wouldn't think twice about. I've been working for the last 2 days in a privately owned seasonal park about 12 miles from here that would be perfect for campers. It's a seasonal park full of "full timers" that live here 6 months of the year in either a park model or a HIGH end RV. My in laws have 2 park models out there and spend most of the summer there (despite actually only living about 5 miles from there). There's a nice beach, hundreds of huge shade trees, there are always plenty of available sites for part timers and the local downtown area of the nearby burg reminds me very much of Waterloo. The park also has a very nice 9-hole golf course and almost everyone in the park has a golf cart for cruising. It's actually on my short list of host sites - but if I mentioned throwing it in Durand, MI - nobody would have a clue where it was.

Let me make this perfectly clear - Going to downtown Flint - or to Detroit - or experiencing any part of the Bricks or Woodward festivities would surely not be mandatory. It's just something extra and awsome to experience that you won't believe it until you see it.

If you'd like to come to my event, I'd love to have you - but if you're bad mouthing it out of ignorance and implying that I'd go through the effort to host an event with my whole family there that wasn't completely safe or completely family friendly, then I absolutely take that personally and you can GFY.

I'm never going to beg people to come to the time of their lives, but I also don't think it's too much to ask for a little respect and that the cancerous mindset of "If we had it THERE we'd all get shot and/or carjacked" be stopped immediately. Bad mouthing anyone elses hometown to this level would never be tolerated in any other thread on this forum - and if it's not going to be properly moderated - don't expect me to sit here quietly while the ignorance, half-assed assumptions, and pure stupidity gains momentum.

Peace,
John

I think we all need to take a breath and calm down a bit. We're on this forum for fun and to share our love and knowledge of these cars, not to get upset or offended.

And John, I've been up there and Michigan is really pretty in the summertime, but please keep in mind that all many people know about Flint is what they saw by watching the movie Roger & Me. Michael Moore did not paint a pretty picture of your city. I'd love to visit Buick City again and then run to Detroit and cruise Woodward. Someday I will!

Lets all take it easy. If wagonfest continues in New York for tradition's sake, that's fine, just please post more pics next year so I can drool some more!

There are lots of car-related events all over the US, and any I go to with my Roadmonster, I'll be sure and post my pics from them.

Stay safe and Happy Friday All!

-Mike

I'd be down for WF Flint. Big cities = big things to do. It's that simple.

Plus big car shows are always cool. We could have so many wagons there they might even give us our own section or something... and maybe other people can learn and become part of the community some day. Is that such a bad thing?

And, though I've never been to Flint, I agree with John. Some of you guys aren't even giving him a chance to speak. Fred is doing Wagonfest West right now this year. What's the harm in moving it? I don't see it at all. Tradition is nice and all, but if we outgrow something, we should move. I wish I made it to WF this year, but it wasn't in the cards, but that's okay. Next year I'll be there and we'll have a blast.

Flint or bust.

John I didn't mean for my comment to be against your hometown,I was agreeing with Nick about the level of comfort in waterloo.

My poimt is I left my wife at the outlet store by herself for hours,and maybe that is possible at your place as well,I can't comment.

If you feel that the environment you just experienced at Wf can be duplicated in your hometown,I fully support you,and am definitely in.

My fear is I have a brother in law who married a girl from Detroit, So I have valid reasons to avoid places he has told us about.


And no I will not pardon your foul language and equate it to my wifes official language.

Stingroo wrote:

I'd be down for WF Flint. Big cities = big things to do. It's that simple.

Plus big car shows are always cool. We could have so many wagons there they might even give us our own section or something... and maybe other people can learn and become part of the community some day. Is that such a bad thing?

And, though I've never been to Flint, I agree with John. Some of you guys aren't even giving him a chance to speak. Fred is doing Wagonfest West right now this year. What's the harm in moving it? I don't see it at all. Tradition is nice and all, but if we outgrow something, we should move. I wish I made it to WF this year, but it wasn't in the cards, but that's okay. Next year I'll be there and we'll have a blast.

Flint or bust.

Check the average age here and at WF before you think we need Big City anything.


Most of the wagons here wouldn't be even noticed at those shows,don't confuse the two.