Towing 4700 lb Camper

Ok, I've searched all over the web and get mixed reviews. On top of that I found a really nice RM 2 miles from home at a great price and put a deposit on it. The question is will it fit my needs.


Use: To tow 27ft 4700lb travel trailer about 300 miles 4-6 times a summer to northern Michigan.

is there a way to decipher tow package etc by vin? VIN is 1G4BR82P5TR416936

I already have weight dis hitch and prodigy brake controller. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. I'm supposed to pull the trigger today.

-Brad

Brad

Probably the easiest way to tell if you have the towing package is: If you have 2 electrical cooling fans, you do not have the towing package. If you have 1 mechanical and 1 electrical fan, you do have the cooling package.

Tom

So if it does have the tow package is it sane to tow a 27ft camper?

silverfox103 wrote:

Probably the easiest way to tell if you have the towing package is:  If you have 2 electrical cooling fans, you do not have the towing package.  If you have 1 mechanical and 1 electrical fan, you do have the cooling package.

Unless someone replaced the mechanical fan with a second electric fan in it's past. Also, that only applies to the 94-96 models, with the LT1.

However, yes the build sheet can be looked up at Compnine -- for a price. But once they have their 30 pieces of silver, anyone can look at the results. For that car, here are the results:
http://www.compnine.com/mycar.php?id=13a7964bdb0a05fbceec7106c9ed3164

And yes, it does indeed have the V92 tow package.

(I'll attach a pdf just in case the link vanishes over time.)

To tow a trailer of that size, I'd recommend a class III weight distributing hitch. The Class III receiver will be hard to find (don't believe websites that claim to have them -- they are lying). Do a search on the subject of this website and you will see they are highly sought after. You may even come across my measured sketch and photos of how I built mine.

awesome thanks guys.

here are the two on my radar and I may pull the trigger pending your advice.

I cant post links so one is at suburbanford of sterling heights and the other is at dwDetroit dot com.

By pictures and mileage only, I think I would lean towards the blue one, as it has 30K less miles.  Also the asking price is less.  I'm guess both have tow packs, the blue for sure, but most RMW wagons with tow pack have the aluminum wheels, which the tan one does also.

With the mileage on the tan one, you're looking at shocks and a front end rebuild pretty quick.  Being both rust belt cars, look them over really good, including spare tire well. With the tow pack, either should tow you trailer, quite a few members have done that.

Good Luck

Tom

Though the blue one had less miles it was beat amd has rot in a lot of places. I think imgoing to nump on the gold one. I got themdown to 2500 out the door. It does need new rear wheel cylinder. Will the draw tite 75146 work?

I googled that hitch, it will not fit since it's made for a sedan.

The wagon hitch is discontinued. Would need to find a used one.

or build (or HAVE built) one from plans found on this site...

Is that trailer 4700 DRY? If so, I would look elsewhere as these were rates for 5000 pounds. CAN the wagon tow the trailer? Sure. not sure about durability as you visit those Yoopers.

I documented my hitch build here: https://gmlongroof.4umer.com/t6313-class-3-hitches-do-they-really-not-exist

The rust belt cars do tend to rust out just forward of the rear wheel arch (where the rear subframe is welded to the "C'" channel joiners). Check both cars carefully for rust in those areas. Especially if you are using a load equalizing hitch, you may find yourself in trouble there as these hitches do place an additional load (in the opposite direction) on the chassis at these points.

Good advise regarding "dry weight". Doesn't take too many clothes, much camping gear, water, propane, firewood etc. to push the dry weight up over the 5,000 lbs. tow rating on these cars. My camper is about the same as yours but, even though I'm really anal about what we cart around, I still tip the scales at over 5,500 lbs. That is why I originally went with the Caddy and spec'd it out for the V4P (tow pack) rating of 7,000 lbs.

If there is no rust issues, and you are going for the LT1 cars, can't really see an issue with pulling 6,000 lbs. plus with the "B" cars, but there has to be some reason the General only wanted these cars to haul 5,000 lbs. The Caddy is actually longer than the wagons, has the same basic chassis components and it was rated for 7,000 lbs. No idea what the difference would be.

Another issue you might run into, depending on the jurisdiction, is that if stopped in some states (and provinces) and you are more than 10% over the rated spec's, there is a significant fine and in some states, they won't even allow you to drive the rig to the nearest stop. You have to call for a tow. Had a friend with a 5er get caught that way in Alberta. Cost him over $1,000 to bail himself out.

Never the less, these are great tow vehicles and are more comfortable to drive than their truck counterparts. Even entertained doing a body off on the Caddy, reinforce the chassis and get an automotive engineer to sign off on it, replace the rear axle with a full floater, re-do the suspension and brakes, and install one of my diesel set-ups. Figured I could easily get it rated to over 10,000 lbs. Ended up defaulting to one of the newer lux trucks. Was easier in the end.

Good luck on your hunt.

Bill

The 5,000lb limit is for the regular car or tow-pack with a weight-carrying hitch. Check the owner's manual: a tow-pack wagon is rated 7,000 lbs towing capacity when using a weight distributing hitch, dual sway controls, increasing the rear tire pressure to 35 psi and disabling the Electronic Level Control.

That is a good point, and one that I overlook far too often...

Thanks for the reminder.

So really this comes down to the hitch or lack there of. I hit up both of my buddys that are fabricators and they don't want to do it...

There's the thought of me fireing up the grandpa's old mig and just beefing up the one on it????? thoughts?

While the tensile strength of mig wire and stick electrodes can be equivalent, and while there are some industrial grade mig welders out there that can make a decent weld in 1/4" steel, "Grandpa's old mig" will generally not provide sufficient penetration to provide adequate strength. Mig wire is typically up to .045". If you read the sketch I provided, I stipulated 1/8" (.125") E6010 for the root pass and 3/16" (.1875") E7018 for the fill. The heavier electrode material can carry considerably greater current, which affects the penetration. E6010 has excellent penetration and the 7018 rod makes a very tough but ductile weldment.

Of course, I also specified 1/4" stock. Thinner material won't accept the same degree of penetration in the first place. Thinner material might carry the static load, but shock loading will permanently deform and weaken the hitch.

Finally, it's not just the strength of the hitch that must be considered. Equally important is the strength of the connection between the hitch and the frame.

So, what you have to ask yourself is: do you know enough to safely re-engineer a light duty hitch to handle the loads involved?

ok, so maybe it's a bad idea for me to consider plugging in the welder.

So...

With a Class 3 hitch, the wagon stated about has a 7000lb tow rating?

Most Class III hitches are weight carrying (WC) and also are weight distributing (WD) hitches. But not all Class III hitches are rated to be both. The hitch specifications will alert you to a hitch that is not weight distributing. Class III hitches used as weight carrying are rated up to 5,000 (or sometimes 6000) lbs. gross trailer weight (GTW) with a maximum trailer tongue weight (TW) of 500 (or 600) lbs. Hitches that are used for weight distributing are rated up to 10,000 lbs. gross trailer weight (GTW) with a maximum trailer tongue weight (TW) of 1000 lbs. They are often advertised as "Class III/IV" hitches, meaning they meet the requirements of a class III when weight carrying and a class IV when weight-distributing. The use of a ball mount and hitch ball of the same rating or higher and a weight distribution system is required.

If you come across a used hitch receiver, it may still have the rating or model visible, in which case you can probably find the specifications on-line. Or someone here may be able to identify it by photos. In the case of the shop-made receiver mentioned above, I over-engineered it. It should handle 10,000 lbs + shock loads with a 5x safety factor.

back at it guys. Had a few speed bumps in life so the longroof search went on hold. I found a really clean 94 caprice wagon with the class 3 hitch. It's cheap because of a decent dent in the rear quarter. I can work on that over the winter. The question boils back to, will a 94-lt1 tow my 4700 lb camper? or do I keep searching for a RM estate?

Engine & transmission-wise, is no difference between the Caprice LT1/4L60E and the RMW LT1/4L60E. The frames are the same too. The RMW V92 Gran Touring/Trailer Towing Package added the following options:
2.93:1 limited slip rear axle; Auxiliary transmission, oil coolers; mechanical primary fan (all 3 comprised the HD cooling package); Heavy duty alternate suspension; Auto. Level suspension

According to Wikipedia, the Caprice tow package "also gave a heavy duty suspension nearly identical to the 9C1 police car suspension. 2.93 gears, heavy duty cooling, heavy duty rear drum brakes and positraction were standard with the towing package".

All later LT1 RMWs came with the HD rear brakes, and GM actually required the auto level suspension to be disabled when towing with a weight-equalizing hitch.

So, the question boils down to does the Caprice have the towing package? If not, can you make suitable upgrades for a reasonable price? A set of Airlift 1000 air springs or cargo coils and some decent shock absorbers would make for a nice suspension upgrade. A transmission cooler is easy to add. Even an aftermarket oil cooler could be added, if you were towing in southern climates. Limited slip is not necessary for towing. The biggest hurdle would be the stock 2.56 rear axle ratio. You might spend a lot of time in 3rd instead of Drive, and/or putting extra strain on that transmission.

I,d want a shift improver kit added to the trans if i was going to tow 4700+ stuff all the time,.

i,d be keeping the trans in 2nd n 3rd a lot with 2:56's,. and i,d definitely have a manual lockup switch,.

my mileage bopping around locally for the past few weeks is better when i manually shift the car,.
stock programming shifts way too early and relies on the converter too much,.creating heat,.

Here's the build on my wagon with the V92 tow package:

Year:
1992
Build Date:
1991-11-18


Found 13,400 vehicles matching that year and model in our database.
RPO Description Matches
UM6 RADIO,AM/FM STEREO,CASSETTE,ETR,INCLUDES CLOCK STEREO CASSETTE(UM6) 11,373
UQ1 RADIO,PROVISIONS FOR STEREO STEREO RDO PR0VISIONS(UQ1) 13,375
UQ5 SPEAKER SYSTEM,4,DUAL FRONT DOOR MOUNTED,DUAL EXTENDED RANGE QUARTER MOUNTED 4 SPKR SYS(UQ5) 11,749
U39 CLUSTER,INSTRUMENT(OIL,COOLANT TEMPERATURE,VOLTMETER,TRIP ODOMETER) GA CSTR(U39) 13,228
U73 ANTENNA,FIXED FIXED ANT(U73) 7,073
VK3 LICENSE PLATE,FRONT MOUNTING PACKAGE FRT LIC PLT MTG PKG(VK3) 11,985
V08 COOLING SYSTEM,HEAVY DUTY HVY DUTY CLG(V08) 6,734
V73 VEHICLE STATEMENT - US/CANADA US/CANADA VEHICLE STATEMENT(V73) 11,911
V92 TRAILER PROVISIONS TRLR PROVISIONS(V92) 3,812
WRN PLANT CODE - WILLOW RUN, MI, USA 13,400
1AY ORDER MODIFICATION - STOCK 7,013
1SC PACKAGE-OPTION 03 (1SC) 4,772
1SZ PACKAGE OPTION- (1SZ) 11,910
20B TRIM COMBINATION,CLOTH,VERY DARK SAPPHIRE (20B) 2,462
20I INTERIOR TRIM,VERY DARK SAPPHIRE (20I) 5,201
209 SEAT BELT COLOR,VERY DARK SAPPHIRE (209) 5,201
40U EXTERIOR COLOR,PRIMARY,WHITE (40U) 3,294
41Q MOLDING COLOR,BLACK (41Q) 2,729
6TL COMPONENT-COMPUTER SELECTED SUSPENSION SUSP(6TL) 10,556
7TL COMPONET-COMPUTER SELECTED SUSPENSION SUSP(7TL) 10,556
8RN COMPONET-COMPUTER SELECTED SUSPENSION SUSP(8RN) 11,274
9RN COMPONET-COMPUTER SELECTED SUSPENSION SUSP(9RN) 11,274
AA7 WINDOW,ELECTRIC OPERATED,QUICK OPENING QUICK OPG ELEC WDO(AA7) 11,564
AG1 ADJUSTER FRT ST POWER, MULTI-DIRECTIONAL, DRIVER MULTI-DIRECTIONAL PWR D/SEAT ADJR(AG1) 10,661
AJ3 RESTRAINT SYSTEM,FRONT SEAT INFLATABLE DRIVER SI INFL RST SYS(AJ3) 13,400
AM6 SEAT,FRONT SPLIT,3 PASSENGER WITH CENTER ARMREST FRT SPLIT ST(AM6) 11,826
AU3 LOCK,SIDE DOOR,ELECTRIC ELEC S/D LK(AU3) 11,961
B34 COVERING,FLOOR MATS,FRONT,CARPETED INSERT(COLOR COORDINATED) FRT CPT INS FLR MATS(B34) 11,776
B37 COVERING,FLOOR MATS,FRONT AND REAR AUXILIARY FRT/RR AUX FLR MATS(B37) 11,776
C49 DEFOGGER,REAR WINDOW,ELECTRIC ELEC RR WDO DEFG(C49) 12,263
C60 AIR CONDITIONER,FRONT,MANUAL CONTROLS A/C MAN CONT(C60) 13,400
DL8 MIRROR,OUTSIDE,RH AND LH REMOTE CONTROL,ELECTRIC,DEFOG ELEC R/CON HTD O/S MIR(DL8) 10,260
D3X GEAR-SPEEDOMETER DRIVEN (25513049) (D3X) 5,101
D8I SENSOR-VEH SPD (10456089) (D8I) 6,737
E5Z ADAPTER - SPEEDO - DELETE 13,400
E9Z KEY - SPEEDO - DELETE 13,400
F40 SUSPENSION,HEAVY DUTY,FRONT AND REAR HVY DUTY SUSP(F40) 13,400
GU5 AXLE,REAR,3.23 RATIO 3.23R(GU5) 6,737
IQB TRIM,INTERIOR DESIGN (IQB) 4,277
JA2 BRAKE SYSTEM,HEAVY WEIGHT,DISC,DRUM HVY WT BRK SYS(JA2) 13,400
JM4 BRAKE SYSTEM,POWER FRONT DISC,REAR DRUM,ANTI-LOCK(CAST IRON) ANTILOCK DISC/DRUM BRK(JM4) 13,252
KC4 COOLING SYSTEM,ENGINE OIL ENG OIL CLG(KC4) 5,282
K34 CRUISE CONTROL,AUTOMATIC,ELECTRONIC CRCONT(K34) 12,343
K60 GENERATOR,100 AMPERE 100 AMP(K60) 13,228
L05 ENGINE,5.7L(5.7-7)GAS 8 CYLINDER 5.7-7(L05) 5,462
MD8 TRANSMISSION,AUTOMATIC 4-SPEED(THM700R4/4L60) 4-SPD A/TRANS(MD8) 13,400
MX0 TRANSMISSION,AUTOMATIC,OVERDRIVE(MERCHANDISING OPTION) A/TRANS PROVISIONS(MX0) 13,400
NA5 EMISSION SYSTEM,FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS FEDERAL EMIS(NA5) 13,042
N30 STEERING WHEEL(DELUXE) DELUXE STRG WHL(N30) 13,400
N40 STEERING,HYDRAULIC(NON-VARIABLE) NON-VARIABLE P/S(N40) 13,400
N81 TIRE,SPARE(FULL SIZE RADIAL)(EXPORT) FULL SIZE RADIAL SPA(N81)(EXPORT) 7,446
PH1 WHEEL,15X7(STEEL) STEEL WHL(PH1) 13,400
QEU TIRE ALL- P225/75R15/N WS2 R/PE ST TL ALS (9591637) TIRE(QEU) 11,756
R4Z TIRE BRAND ALL - GENERAL 11,902
R6S CONTROL - SALES ITEM NO. 18 95
R7V CONTROL - SALES ITEM NO. 46 44
R8T CONTROL - SALES ITEM NO. 69 4,737

In my opinion a Tow pack Caprice wagon or RMW will pull a 5500-6000 lb travel trailer.  Properly set up with the prodigy brake controller you talked about.  I would go with brakes on both axels.   Adjusting the equalizing hitch properly is a must.  

I just did a 225 mile each way, trip empty out and loaded return.  Kept speed to 55 on the two lane and 60-62 on the E-way towing in drive not overdrive.



Hope the link works

Nice! What kind of mileage did you get?

The trip home was 9 mpg, leaving it in "drive" no overdrive. I get 12-13 with the open car hauler at 65-70. My previous tow vehicle, with the exact same options, except color was red and it was a factory wood delete, got 14-15 with the open car hauler at 60. I was never able to pinpoint why the red wagon got better mileage in all driving conditions.

Thanks. We're taking our first towing trip in December and I'll report our mileage once we get going.

I do miss having an on board computer to check mileage. Oh well, I will have to go old school and just calculate a tank.

If a fuel mileage display is important to you, here: http://ecomodder.com/wiki/index.php/MPGuino

buickwagon wrote:

I documented my hitch build here: https://gmlongroof.4umer.com/t6313-class-3-hitches-do-they-really-not-exist

Is it possible to post the blue print separately maybe as a pdf for ease of printing?

Nice work Btw.

phantom 309 wrote:

I'd want a shift improver kit added to the trans if i was going to tow 4700+ stuff all the time,.

I'd be keeping the trans in 2nd n 3rd a lot with 2:56's,. and i,d definitely have a manual lockup switch,.

my mileage bopping around locally for the past few weeks is better when i manually shift the car,.
stock programming shifts way too early and relies on the converter too much,.creating heat,.

Late reply, but if you are getting a 94 wagon, it has 2nd gear start. A stock transmission won't last very long if you leave it in 2 off the line.

Nick's pretty much on the money with those suggestions. A car with 2.56, even if not used for towing can benefit from a PCM tune to optimize the shift points.

Jason, are you sure? Our 94 starts in first. But it now also has a shift kit.

VT Wagon wrote:

Is it possible to post the blue print separately maybe as a pdf for ease of printing?

It is scanned into a .jpg at http://picturehosting.verhey.org/RMW_hitch/hitch_dimensions.jpg

Note that while it nicely fits the LT1 dual-exhaust cars, the earlier L05 and boxies have the single, right-hand side, exhaust mounted slightly inboard by comparison. Two people that I know of have tried it and found the single exhaust interferes. The frames and bolt holes are the same distance apart, but the exhaust is hanging approximately 1" further inboard under the frame.

From their descriptions, it should be possible to adapt this design by using 5"x4" or 5"x5" angle iron and reducing the cross-bar length to 36-3/8", with corresponding 1" adjustments to the hole locations noted on the diagram.

It was also noted that there can be some slight variation in bumper height due to manufacturing tolerances. This was designed to sit as high as possible, touching the bumper cover. That seems to be the case with most LT1 cars, but in a few cases it actually pushes up slightly on the plastic cover (no problem with the metal bumper itself, just the plastic). It has been suggested that lowering the cross-bar 3/8" would ensure an interference-free fit on all cars.

I have not confirmed or tried the above modifications personally, as I don't have an L05 or boxie anymore. However, beertestr is investigating further and has said he may be in a position to make a run of suitably modified hitches in this thread: https://gmlongroof.4umer.com/t10955-another-trailer-hitch-thread#116145

autoarcheologist wrote:

Jason, are you sure?  Our 94 starts in first.  But it now also has a shift kit.

Yes.  The PCM for 94 and early 95 models is programmed for 2nd gear start: With the gear selector lever in 2, it will start in 2nd gear.  Great in the snow, bad for towing.  I make sure I add it to my cars, and they've all had shift kits (transgo HD2-C or the new Sonnax one, which is awesome)

The only 94 B-car I had with the towing package was 10 years ago.  I think it had 2nd gear start.  It is possible that GM was clever enough not to offer it on cars with the trailer towing package.  It's also possible your pcm has been reprogrammed/updated at a dealership.

I found with my 26' "light weight" trailer that I assumed would be around 4500 lbs loaded ended up being 5600 lbs when I hit the scales.  I pulled it a LOT of miles (8000+ over a 6 year period) but I don't think I'd want a bigger one back there.  My rear axle was way over its rating as well, although it didn't seem to mind.  My tongue weight was high for that weight of trailer and even when trying to get it lower by moving items to the rear of the trailer still tended to be 850 lbs.

I would approach a 27' trailer with caution unless you've had it on the scales and know it weighs what you think it weighs.  Most people easily add 1,000 lbs to a trailer when they load up.

Here is my trailer.

Great looking combo!

jasonlachapelle wrote:

The only 94 B-car I had with the towing package was 10 years ago.  I think it had 2nd gear start.  It is possible that GM was clever enough not to offer it on cars with the trailer towing package.  It's also possible your pcm has been reprogrammed/updated at a dealership.

My 95 RMW with tow-pack has 2nd gear start.

Biggest trailer I ever towed with either RMW was a 35' park model behind the 92. Hardly knew it was there, but it was unloaded. 6500lbs.

I finally found my roady! it's a 96, two owner car. Have already had it on a few roadtrips and love it!

It does have the class 3 hitch, however i just realized it doesn't have the indicator on the shifter for tow mode like most GM vehichles. Does that mean it's not a tow pack car? When i get home ill put the vin on here.

There's no "tow mode" on these cars. If you are towing a heavy trailer in hilly terrain and are worried about the transmission, shift to 3rd (Drive) instead of 4th (Overdrive).

To check for tow-pack:
Open the tailgate and check the RPO code list for "V92". or

If you pop the hood, a tow-pack car will have an engine-driven mechanical fan on the right and a HD electric fan on the left, unless a previous owner swapped in an electric fan in place of the mechanical one.

It turns out I do have the v92 package with the additional trans cooler.

I do have a few questions. The car does have the Grand touring suspension. The previous owner said he never heard the compressor kick on so I’m assuming the system is shot.

1. What is my best option for air support in the back?


Full bags to replace the springs? The helper springs that slide inside the coil or air shocks?

I really want to avoid onboard air management for now.


2. Brake controllers- which unit do you all use and how difficult are they to install?

One of the members on here regularly tows a Airstream. I would pick his brain about the setup. I believe his name is Colonel something? Need another member here to help me with the name. I just remember reading he covered alot of miles with his setup.

His screen name is,"Col." Geezzz,lol. You can find his threads about the Airstream in this same section. I hope this helps...

I have a similar trailer but it weighs in at about 5,500 lbs in travel trim.  The tongue weight is around 620 lbs. but I do use an "Equalizer" load leveling hitch.



I found the most practical method was to use an aftermarket air shock, either Monro Max Air or Gabriel airshock (don't go for the cheap Delcos, they don't last) and an air fitting in the trunk or beside the rear license plate.  I also replaced the rear springs with the heaviest conventional spring available (for the Caddy, the "livery" Buick sedan springs worked best).  Your local parts store will have the replacement spring charts to help decide which one is best.  If you are using bags or air shocks, don't go for the variable rate springs as the portion of the spring that is for load, throws off the correct height for towing (tongue drops over 3 inches under tongue load).

Tried the "airlift 1000" (in the spring bags) on the Roadmaster and blew two sets before going back to the airshocks.  Neither the Monro nor the Gabriel were particularly good shocks (Monro was better) and I just took the attitude that you change them out every two years.  Certainly not suitable for autocrossing, but perfectly acceptable for a daily driver.

Have never tried a true air bag suspension, but I guess they would work.  I just prefer to have something supporting my vehicle that doesn't depend on an airtight system and is field serviceable.  Springs can be had at any auto parts store whereas a Goodyear bag may not be available in lower butt kiss Georgia.  Never mind even considering an air system from any of the custom houses.  A lot of them manufacture their own bags.  Good luck finding a replacement.

Hope this helps.

Bill

sure are a lot or air bags out there going up and down the road,..my lincoln depends on an air tight system,.. it has 180,000 miles on it,..not many 18 wheelers are on springs anymore,.

i would hazard a guess that in todays world,. it,d be easier to get an airbag,..

i put a 2 gal reservoir, a leveling valve, a buick compressor and firestone airbags on my dually,. after i removed all the rear springs except 3 light leafs to hold it up empty,.

It was the best mod ever,. a one ton riding like a caddy,.

I’m ready to start tackling this rear suspension. What if I replace my “oiled out” factory air shocks with Gabriel or Monroe air shocks AND also did the ride rite bags in the coils? Thoughts? i have no intention of getting the factory load leveling in working order.

I ended up ordering firstone ride rite bags and load adjusting shocks for peace of mind.

Has anyone seen this? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001P0ZA86?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Pricey but it would save time, execpt I only have a 4 pin connector. What are the three other wires for?